Reggie Belafonte
Well-Known Member
Angels are messengers, are they not ? some are of God and some are in rebellion, false regarding God.
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I'm terribly sorry, but I'm not sure I follow any of that.The thing to distinguish is that the Holy Spirit binds the anti-Christ and plunders his goods, Christ then kills the anti-Christ at Armageddon.
You can skip to Armageddon if you want, but if you do that on Earth, you will be hit with a snare - only the Holy Spirit has a way out of Earth.
Many will try to distinguish between the anti-Christ and the Holy Spirit and will not be able.
i love simple Truth from God's word, and for our benefit, He will repeat important elements whereby it becomes easy to identify.
Daniel 7:11 - Then I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.
2 Thess 2:8 - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
Revelation 19:19 - Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army. But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Pretty straight forward = World Leader(s) in opposition to God, they have a time of authority on earth but are defeated at the Second Coming of Christ. Not everyone is killed.
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Daniel 7:21 - As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them,
v25 - He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High
Matthew 24:9 - Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Revelation 13: 5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,
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Okay, I see where you're trying to go here, and I've addressed it before.Daniel 7:26-27 - But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’
Matthew 24: 30 - At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Revelation 1:7-8 - Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.
Revelation 2:26 - And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery - just as I have received authority from My Father.
Revelation 5:10 - Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Not sure of your point here, sorry.Interject and Review 1 Thess 4:13-18 here and then LOOK n SEE below
Revelation 20:4-5 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This is just a brief but simple and direct LOOK n SEE from the Lord Jesus Christ so that we know and have confidence in Him.
Peace
I believe in who God sent, in a friendly way, to do the works of the truth as is my duty.Ah, please demonstrate your claim that you are actually God's friend as what you post does not, IMHO, line up with the word of God at all and is misleading to say the least.
I'm just saying you need to punctuate your expectations of the future, with the reference to the relationship you want to learn about.I'm terribly sorry, but I'm not sure I follow any of that.
[...]. So again, I'm afraid I'm not sure where you're going with this.
You have me cracking up here but i loved your response.Hold up! Straight forward, yes. Absolutely. Nicely laid out even, so well done.
The huge problem you have here, is your conclusion.
You lay out all the verses that corroborate how the beast is killed and thrown into the lake of fire. And then sum it up by saying "see, not everyone is killed!"
Really? Where does it say that? Ummm. It doesn't. At all.
In point of fact, it conspicuously stays silent...in these verses...as to what happens to the 'armies' gathered with the beast to wage war against Christ.
You, I'm afraid, have leapt to a conclusion.
What you ought to do, is search through scripture to find what it tells us happens to people at Christ's return. And, as I've been saying, it DOES tell us what happens. People are judged. Into either eternal damnation, or eternal righteousness with Christ.
Again...we see corroborative accounts of the beast warring against the saints...but nothing to suggest that after his demise, there will be people left alive after judgement.
Okay, I see where you're trying to go here, and I've addressed it before.
Your problem is this: you have not, and I content, cannot, prove that when the saints take...or more rightly, are given...dominion over the kingdom and shall reign over it, it needs must be a fallen world. Vastly improved than this one by Christ's kingship, but still, not the new heavens and earth.
If indeed other scriptures found in the NT are correct in pointing to Christ's return as THE day, the day when all are judged into their eternal dwelling places and given their eternal bodies to endure it. And indeed the cosmos, which includes both heaven and earth are made new at the same day (2 Pet 3:10), then the kingdom that the saints have been given dominion over is the eternal one. And that means that there is no one left who has natural bodies.
Once again, to be clear: there are many, obvious verses that state, outright, that these things will be, at Christ's return. The judgement of all, just and unjust, the giving of new bodies, both living and dead, the renewing of the cosmos. And in the face of those clear passages, you seem to have provided the above; verses that can easily be read as a physical reign and dominion upon the earth in renewed bodies, under the shepherding of our glorious king Jesus.
Not sure of your point here, sorry.
I have addressed such passages, none state that all humans are killed at the second coming.
Ahh.Second, what I have presented has gone unchallenged because it is scriptural fact. It cannot be denied that the ruling of the nations happens after Armageddon thus proving there are survivors. Rev 19 isn't the only passage that proves this either.
No. Everyone understands that the nations are those who are the unsaved mortals. Rev 2 makes that quite clear. Not to mention the common Amill position is that the "rule" with the rod of iron is violent, killing the nations which is wrong and ignorant of the meaning of RULE in the greek.
Since I believe the Word tells us who the Antichrist is, it might be important to begin by identifying who He is not.
But who is he since you know he is not a Jew or a Roman?The Antichrist is neither Jewish, nor Roman.
You may have addressed these passages, but I have not seen your attempt.
But if your rebuttal is that none of them mention that all humans are killed at the second coming, then I confess I'm disappointed.
Ahh.
"Gone unchallenged"...?
I'm actually not even really sure how to respond to this.
First: yes it's been challenged. I challenged it.
Well...I'm not sure if you know this about me, but I don't slot nicely into the "Amill" position. Which perhaps makes it tricky for those trying to peg me down. Sorry.
So me, I'm more inclined to look at what the bible says...in this case what the Greek word is bending towards, rather than what a traditional doctrinal stance is.
We know Revelation uses the phrase 'nations' in regard to both sinful 'earth-dwellers', but also, on occasion, to the vast swath of people who make up those who hold true to the testimony of Christ. ('from every tribe and language and people and nation' Rev 5:9). So, it can be hard to insist it must only be used one way or the other.
And...once again...there is no need for natural bodies to make it past his return.
satanIt's going to be important very soon, for some to know who the Antichrist is.
Since I believe the Word tells us who the Antichrist is, it might be important to begin by identifying who He is not.
The Antichrist is neither Jewish, nor Roman.
Comments?
Now that's funny. I named the beast of the sea somewhere in this written corn-traption.But he has been identified by many Christians for over two thousand years now.
But who is he since you know he is not a Jew or a Roman?
To God Be The Glory
He's the only one that can be , it won't be a mere flesh man ,periodGo Fish.
What brings you to this conclusion?He's the only one that can be , it won't be a mere flesh man ,period
With all due respect...You have me cracking up here but i loved your response.
Take your time with that post and the verses as they speak for themself and are loaded with info.
Peace
Scripture is clear there are nations that are ruled over past the second coming. If you disagree, show your evidence. I've shown mine.
Not really. The word for RULE is in the future tense and that has gone unchallenged. It is proof that John placed the rule over the nations AFTER Armageddon.
The problem I have with stating absolutes like this, is it can back you into a corner. Does Revelation MOSTLY use 'nations' in reference to the sinful people dwelling on the earth? Yes. However, there are enough occasions where the word 'nations' is clearly just used to describe people of all tribes and nationalities. For example:Rev 2 makes it clear that overcomers will rule over the nations which makes the nations non-Christians, non-overcomers. These are the same nations mentioned in Rev 19.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.Mortals do exist past the second coming. Only saved believers are made immortal, so the nations being ruled over are mortal and are still mortal after the thousand years when they are killed by fire at Jerusalem.
I think you were missing my point. Let me try and break it down:
AFTER Armageddon, when Christ returns (and we agree this is future, yes?), do you agree that every person...every tongue and nation under heaven, will be forced to bow and acknowledge that Christ is Lord? Not accept him as their saviour...but acknowledge that he is God and that they have been...indeed still are, in open rebellion to him.
Can you see that in this action...no matter how brief it might be, they are, indeed, being ruled completely...
Can you also acknowledge that even while in hell, they still fall under the purview of Christ's Lordship...or is he not Lord of every molecule within the cosmos?
The problem I have with stating absolutes like this, is it can back you into a corner. Does Revelation MOSTLY use 'nations' in reference to the sinful people dwelling on the earth? Yes. However, there are enough occasions where the word 'nations' is clearly just used to describe people of all tribes and nationalities. For example:
Revelation 21:22–24
[22] And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. [23] And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. [24] By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
This is very clearly after the verse that tells us that the new heavens and new earth have arrived. So...no sinful folks remain.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
Here's the thing, and I'm being totally honest with you. Revelation is apocalyptic, and the sort of imagery it uses makes it...let's say, open to nuance. It could be that you are right about your interpretation in 'nation'. Could be. Or...could be that my take on it is right. It's not so cut and dried...it doesn't lay out a direct picture for us, because, by its very nature, its using imagery to tell us its truths.
However, the other passages in the NT, the ones I've pointed out that DO very clearly talk of Christ's return...the ones that tell us that ALL people will be judged at that moment...those ones are clear.
So for me, talking about the word 'nations' in Revelation is interesting, sure. But unless you've cast serious doubt on those rock-solid verses first, no nuance in Revelation is going to help build your case.
I don't read of any devil being allowed human form by God. It was still Judas that betrayed Jesus after Satan entered into his heart. But we're on the same page about the beast's power from Satan from within the man himself.Satan is a created angel. Thus can appear as a man in human form. Paul does not call Satan a dragon, so the default would be a male human form. Paul was not being symbolic, just calling Satan out for leading men astray, even before Paul's time on earth.
Satan is an angel. The term devil is a nickname. There is no seperate group of created beings known as a devil, or devils.I don't read of any devil being allowed human form by God. It was still Judas that betrayed Jesus after Satan entered into his heart. But we're on the same page about the beast's power from Satan from within the man himself.
Romans 14:10–12The bible is silent on whether this happens or not. I know those people will be ruled by a rod of iron but what they are forced to do regarding Christ is unknown.
Sure, that's basic Premill belief.
Except, as I keep pointing out, you still have not delt with the issue of HOW those mortals get there. You say there are mortals after Christ's return. You say there has to be, the bible itself puts them there.Sure but being ruled over by a rod of iron by Christ and his saints is a more specific type of rule and it is written to be over mortals of the nations after the Coming and it lasts a thousand years.
Who the nations are is determined by context. As I explained, the nations being ruled over by overcomers in Rev 2 proves the nations are not also overcomers since overcomers are the ones who shall rule.
Ah...no. No...that's not what scripture tells us at all.There is a throne judgment for the saved at the Coming, and the only other throne judgment is after the thousand years when "the rest of the dead" are judged.
The example I gave is rock solid. It is the position that questions who the nations are in the end of Rev 2 which is the non-solid position.