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Featured Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture)

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by GISMYS_7, May 6, 2020.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Mocking and ridicule may or may not be warranted. It really depends on the purpose. Doubling and tripling down on a doctrine that is popular may seem acceptable. But the reality is, if you study it, that Pretrib has not been existence for the bulk of Christian history. And it flies in the face of Paul's Postrib teaching in 2 Thessalonians. To assert your position simply, without responding to rebuttals is indeed the height of folly, particularly in a forum where debate and exchanges are encouraged.

    Your insistence against rebuttals is itself provocative and a form of scoffing. To suggest that people want to suffer under Antichrist is obscene. Did Jesus have fun going to the cross? Did Christians in the Roman coliseum want to get eaten by lions?

    You really do a disservice when you know the Apostle John said, "As you've heard the Antichrist is coming, so already there are many antichrists." Nero was an "antichrist." Islam has been an antichrist. Communism and Nazism were antichrists. And your argument is what--that we shouldn't want to be here when antichrists are here?

    No, you are equally scoffing at those you think have decided to reject "the Rapture." But your "Rapture" does not line up with the biblical Ratpure, which has Christ coming back only to *destroy the Antichrist," and not coming before that time. But you will most likely not consider this rebuttal, but just go on stating your beliefs, with no thought to how much it also is a form of "scoffing."
     
  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that Satan is the only "antichrist"? All other manipulations are in the spirit of antichrist. Which verse of Paul states there is a posttrib teaching?
     
  3. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    If you don't want to read the whole thing, just look at the bold areas. Paul makes a very specific point, unless the explicit Postrib Teaching is deliberately obscured by the insertion, awkwardly, of a foreign Pretrib Theology. In effect Paul is saying that Christ cannot come for the Church until after Antichrist is both revealed and destroyed. He is saying, quite explicitly, that Christ will *only* come at the point in time when he will come to destroy the Antichrist.

    2 Thes 2.Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction...
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

    Paul's eschatology here is based on what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse, namely that he would not come to establish his Kingdom until after false Christs and false prophets would come to deceive God's People. There would be a period in which Israel would be cast aside in a "Great Tribulation," which is the Jewish Diaspora. And it would only be *after* the Tribulations of that time that he would come to establish his Kingdom. In other words, antichrists *precede* his Coming for his People.

    Matt 24.
    21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

    26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.


    Please note above that Jesus said he will come in the context of judgment, such as when a carcass lay dead, when the heavenly bodies are shaken. This refers to the destruction of the Antichrist.

    And Jesus in turn got his eschatology from Daniel 7, where the prophecy of the Antichrist, the Little Horn, originated. He is not there labeled "the Antichrist," as the Apostle John referred to him, but he appears to bring destruction to God's People, boasting against God, which in effect means that he is making himself to be God. And next, the Son of Man is seen to be appearing from heaven, to bring judgment against this Antichrist, in order to establish God's Kingdom on earth. This Antichrist will be, in effect, an anti-Son of Man, or anti-Messiah. John called him the anti-Christ.

    Notice the emphasis here on the *destruction of the Antichrist,* which is precisely what both Jesus and Paul referred to, in speaking of the context in which Messiah would come.

    Dan 7.11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
     
  4. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    There are no honest rebuttals to the truth of God's Word! ===1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Luke 21:36

    “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
    Just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain """shall be caught up together""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words1 Corinthians 15:51- 57
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I keep trying to expose Satan as the actual man of sin, but no one has joined me in trying to expose Satan. Since Satan being exposed comes first there is really not much time left to expose him.

    That is why I keep saying not to look for an antichrist. Am I supposed to walk up and point out who Satan is? No. The saints of God themselves when knowing what to look for will expose him. Trying to get the church to see, is harder than just exposing Satan. Not because of spiritual issues. But because the whole deception includes the physical makeup of this universe. Everyone has accepted the lie of Satan, and it is so ingrained in their minds, that only the Holy Spirit can change a person's thought process. But all have to hear and read to even see what to change to and from.
     
  6. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    This sounds pretty irrational, brother! All Christians I know have "exposed Satan" at the very least in the matter that he is an obstacle to their salvation. Since they got saved to start with we know they exposed Satan's lies!

    The makeup of the universe has zero to do with satanic deception. If you think it is, you really need to explain your position, because from my pov, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is so. If anything, the makeup of the universe expresses God and His judgments. And that is not a "deception!"
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So Satan needs to be exposed, but it is irrational to do so? It is irrational to be decieved, but we have been. Denying it is the classic reply.

    "The makeup of the universe has zero to do with satanic deception." - is a very strong statement and you have no proof to back it up. Unless you think that Satan does not have you decieved, what do you think the great falling away entails? Most posters here think they have Satan on the run, but yet all are decieved. If the deception is not spiritual then it is physical. My proof is that you cannot ever force current cosmology nor evolution into any part of God’s Word. That should be proof enough that it is a lie. God’s Word does not lie. Almost all have conceded that YEC cannot fit in the Bible. But no one can fit current science unless they apostate God's word, ie the great falling away. If we cannot fit YEC, we will force the Bible to fit science thus giving Satan a total deception both physical and spiritual by changing God's Word just like Eve did in the Garden.

    Yes the heavens still show God’s handiwork. The stars, moon, and sun do form patterns in the sky. The clouds and thunderstorms can be magnificent if not very damaging. But you do not have to portray even a universe that is not there, because that was true to king David way before the Greeks thought the earth was round, or there was this alleged solar system. It was even a "fight" to figure out the so called "center". The ancients always thought the north pole along with the pole star was the center of the universe. They even thought perhaps there was an underworld that shared a connection with 3 levels of the universe. Could they prove it? No. Did someone decieve them? Not necessarily. Paul says in Romans 2:14-15
    14 For whenever Gentiles, who have noTorah, do naturally what the Torahrequires, then these, even though they don’t have Torah, for themselves areTorah!
    15 For their lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is written in their hearts.
    Even Genesis is written on the hearts of the ancients and they were without excuse. They just gave attributes of gods to the creation they observed. That is until Satan started his deception with the Greeks and modern science was born.
     
  8. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture)?? Hebrews 9:28=Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To ""those who eagerly wait for Him"" He will appear a second time.
    Those that do not look for and expect the rapture are left behind and then must then try to live under anti-christ rule. Why would anyone fight against being given a new immortal body as Jesus has now??
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I already know my Heavenly Father has a sense of humor. He will mock the false prophets, just as He led Elijah to mock the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18. As a matter of fact, He already left us an example of that mocking to the false prophets who teach His people to 'fly' to save their souls...

    Ezek 13:18-23
    18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

    19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

    20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.


    21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

    22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

    23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    KJV


    I wonder how many brethren on the false Pre-trib 'fly away' doctrine have read that Ezekiel 13 chapter. Not many I'd say.
     
  10. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Watch and learn TRUTH!!!
    Do You Know Jesus
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I am watching, like my Lord Jesus commanded us. And I know about "the times and the seasons" which tells us what Signs to be watching, as per His Olivet discourse.

    But what are YOU watching? Because the Pre-trib Rapture doctors just get you to watch earthquakes, pestilences, wars, etc., which is only ONE Sign Jesus gave. There are SIX other Signs our Lord Jesus gave us to watch leading up to His 2nd coming. And the MOST important one is that of the coming false-Messiah, which the Pre-trib doctors say we won't be here to see, which is false.
     
  12. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    We are seeing ALL the signs Jesus says would be seen just before His return and the rapture comes first so how close must it be??? Are you ready to be caught up or will you be left behind??
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Well, no, you are not... seeing today ALL the signs Jesus gave, not yet, because many of them have yet to happen.

    What the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have you mostly focused on is the LAST SIGN Jesus gave, which is the day of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church, which will happen only after... all the other Signs have happened, the "great tribulation" being one of them. And they don't want you to study the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse to His Church, which is where He first gave the 7 Signs of the end.
     
  14. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Open your eyes and pray for some wisdom or be left behind!!
     
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    There is only One that is wise, our Heavenly Father and His Son, and He gives wisdom to those who stay in His Word.

    I WANT... to be left behind! And you should too if you want to be gathered by Christ Jesus, because the 'taken' idea at the end of Luke 17 is about those taken by the Antichrist!

    Luke 17:31-37
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    Jesus is talking about the days leading up to His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church.


    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    There's a twist He gave. Those who want to 'save'... their life in that time shall lose it? Spiritually yes, because it relates directly to what He is going to show at the end of this Luke 17 chapter about the first ones being 'taken'.


    But those who lose their life shall preserve it; in other words, those who make a stand in the end for Him, giving a Testimony by The Holy Spirit, and are killed for it, will have preserved their life Eternal in Christ Jesus. Paul said put on the whole armor of God so as to make that 'stand' in the "evil day" (Eph.6).


    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

    KJV

    Christ's Apostles then ask Him just 'where' are those first ones 'taken' going to be taken to.


    Here's the Matt.24 version of that being 'taken'. It's about the dead ("carcase") where the fowls are gathered feasting on it.

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    KJV

    So no way, do I want to be the first one 'taken', for that means being taken by the coming Antichrist. And that is exactly what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors are preparing their congregations for, to be 'taken' by the coming Antichrist-false Messiah who comes first.
     
  16. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    ROFL!! What chapter and verse are you refering to??
     
  17. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Why not just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain """shall be caught up together""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words1 Corinthians 15:51- 57
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Covid19 already took those dead people. Major cities all over the world already declared that bodies have been buried in mass graves.

    If you say, that giving up your life is the way to go, that ship has already sailed. There may be more ships. But the one ship that claims to chop your head off unless you have the cursed branding 666 on your head, that will be the last ship to sail.

    I prefer to be the bride of Christ and just meet the Lord in the air.
     
  19. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    No one is taken by the attacking army coming against Israel but many will be killed==Luke 17:31-37
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.===OR be killed!!
     
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What? You can't read? The Chapter is at the start of the verses I quoted, and I even mentioned the Chapter in my 2nd paragraph in bold.
     
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