Will Judas Iscariot be Saved?

[Aunty Jane]

There are several scriptures that leave us in little doubt as to the fate of Christ's betrayer.....he committed the unforgivable sin.
He was a partaker of the gifts of God's spirit as all of the apostles were, but he deliberately betrayed his master for money. Jesus knew he had been stealing from the treasury box. (John 12:5-6)

John 6:63-65...
"The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. . . . . . “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” 71 He was, in fact, speaking of Judas the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot, for this one was going to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.”

John 11:57...
"But the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that if anyone got to know where Jesus was, he should report it, so that they could seize him."

John 13:2...
"The evening meal was going on, and the Devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Is·carʹi·ot, the son of Simon, to betray him."

Matt 26:14-16, 24...
"Then one of the Twelve, the one called Judas Is·carʹi·ot, went to the chief priests 15 and said: “What will you give me to betray him to you?” They stipulated to him 30 silver pieces. 16 So from then on, he kept looking for a good opportunity to betray him. . . . True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written about him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”.

John 17:12....
"When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled."

There is no hope for Judas.....his actions were premeditated and motivated by greed.....he was doing the devil's work. Three and a half years of being taught by God's own son! The evil committed could not have been greater.....there was no excuse.

 

[Hillsage]

can you Quote “Jesus died for the sins of the world” one, single, time? ill just hold my breath shall i

ntmy btw, im mark

I can come pretty close;

1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now, can you show me one verse that says "eternal Hell"?

 

[Hillsage]

There are several scriptures that leave us in little doubt as to the fate of Christ's betrayer.....he committed the unforgivable sin.
He was a partaker of the gifts of God's spirit as all of the apostles were, but he deliberately betrayed his master for money. Jesus knew he had been stealing from the treasury box. (John 12:5-6)

John 6:63-65...
"The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. . . . . . “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” 71 He was, in fact, speaking of Judas the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot, for this one was going to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.”

John 11:57...
"But the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that if anyone got to know where Jesus was, he should report it, so that they could seize him."

John 13:2...
"The evening meal was going on, and the Devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Is·carʹi·ot, the son of Simon, to betray him."

Matt 26:14-16, 24...
"Then one of the Twelve, the one called Judas Is·carʹi·ot, went to the chief priests 15 and said: “What will you give me to betray him to you?” They stipulated to him 30 silver pieces. 16 So from then on, he kept looking for a good opportunity to betray him. . . . True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written about him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”.

John 17:12....
"When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled."

There is no hope for Judas.....his actions were premeditated and motivated by greed.....he was doing the devil's work. Three and a half years of being taught by God's own son! The evil committed could not have been greater.....there was no excuse.

What 'hope' was there for Peter, when Satan demanded to sift him like wheat when his faith would fail and he would deny Jesus 3 times?

LUK 22:31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

And what saved Peter from Satan entering him causing him to deny our Lord 3 times? It was a prayer from Jesus. Gee, why didn't Jesus just pray for Judas? Some things are just too deep for some. And some things are just too deep for most. In my opinion.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What 'hope' was there for Peter, when Satan demanded to sift him like wheat when his faith would fail and he would deny Jesus 3 times?

Peter gave way to fear of man....he did not do what Judas did. Peter did not defiantly deny Jesus those three times, but was led through fear to deny knowing him.....Judas OTOH conspired with the religious leaders to have Jesus arrested on trumped up charges and it wasn't until after the deed was done that he had second thoughts about the money....but too late. His actions were premeditated. He was already a thief and money was more important to him than all the teachings he had listened to for the past three and a half years.

Jesus had said to the apostles....“All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’"

Judas was already stumbled by the devil and his own wicked heart.....but the impetuous Peter was not, indicated by his statement to Jesus....“Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.”.....when he heard the rooster crow, he wept bitterly in repentance.

And what saved Peter from Satan entering him causing him to deny our Lord 3 times? It was a prayer from Jesus. Gee, why didn't Jesus just pray for Judas? Some things are just too deep for some. And some things are just too deep for most. In my opinion.

The scriptures speak for themselves.....what is too deep about it. Only Judas was called "the son of destruction"...one who would wish "he had never been born". One who partook of God's holy spirit and performed miracles "in Jesus name", but who wickedly betrayed his Master for money...a mere 30 pieces of silver, which was the price of a slave. Sins against the spirit are not forgivable.

 

[bbyrd009]

I can come pretty close;

1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now, can you show me one verse that says "eternal Hell"?

ha well i guess it depends upon how you define “eternal,” mostly? pretty sure “hel” is a bad xlation of Gehenna
and i think there is a “Jesus Christ died for our sins, even closer maybe
no “God requires a sacrifice for our sins” though, not once, near as i can tell anyway

ntmy btw, im mark

 

[Hillsage]

Peter gave way to fear of man....he did not do what Judas did. Peter did not defiantly deny Jesus those three times, but was led through fear to deny knowing him.....Judas OTOH conspired with the religious leaders to have Jesus arrested on trumped up charges and it wasn't until after the deed was done that he had second thoughts about the money....but too late. His actions were premeditated. He was already a thief and money was more important to him than all the teachings he had listened to for the past three and a half years.

SIN is SIN, whether it be a "fear of man" denial, is not even a point supportive of biblical argument.....it's just your opinion...and not my opinion. As for it being "too late" for Judas to repent, I disagree. Do you not believe in last minute living 'death bed confessions' of faith. I DO! If you say you do to, then all I can say is a theological consistency here is a jewel for you to seek....IMO.

Jesus had said to the apostles....“All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’"

Judas was already stumbled by the devil and his own wicked heart.....but the impetuous Peter was not, indicated by his statement to Jesus....“Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.”.....when heard the rooster crow, he wept bitterly in repentance.

So, what the scripture just said it "FOR IT IS WRITTEN". Question for you; WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN? If it was at the same time that it was WRITTEN in scripture that Judas had no choice then you must blame GOD for the decision.

The scriptures speak for themselves.....what is too deep about it. Only Judas was called "the son of destruction"...one who would wish "he had never been born".

Do your homework; study the margin note in the NAS bible for your "partially quoted verse" saying it was better for JUDAS to have not been born. When you do, you'll find that it wasn't better for JUDAS. But it would have been better for JESUS who was the "Son of Man".

That NAS margin note says that the LITERAL GREEK word rendering is different than as it is translated in the NAS translation and YOUR translation. I have checked multiple Greek Interlinear bibles in my library confirming the NAS 'margin comment'. And that comment disagrees with your opinion above.

Nominal orthodox translation says;
MAR 14:21 "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for THAT MAN if he had not been born."

LITERAL GREEK says;
MAR 14:21 "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for HIM IF HAD NOT BEEN BORN THAT MAN."

The first man "HIM" being the 'Son of God' and the "THAT MAN" being Judas.

One who partook of God's holy spirit and performed miracles "in Jesus name", but who wickedly betrayed his Master for money...a mere 30 pieces of silver, which was the price of a slave. Sins against the spirit are not forgivable.

I disagree biblically; All sins are forgivable including those "Sins against the spirit are not forgivable." Again your 'partial translation' of a verse along with your 'full misunderstanding' of that verse.....IMO anyway. But if you want to know why you're wrong? Ask me. FYI brief posts to me are best. I don't like spending a lot of time on FORUMS anymore. This is my first time back in a year or so, and I've responded enough for now. I'm tired.

 

[Hillsage]

ha well i guess it depends upon how you define “eternal,” mostly? pretty sure “hel” is a bad xlation of Gehenna
and i think there is a “Jesus Christ died for our sins, even closer maybe
no “God requires a sacrifice for our sins” though, not once, near as i can tell anyway

ntmy btw, im mark

I don't know if that answer means you're still "breath holding" blue in the face or not. Do you agree or disagree that Jesus died for "the sins of the whole world"? Yes or No seems to fit the 'demand' of your challenge in post #20.

Ahh yes, my definition of "ETERNAL". Well, I like the bible's definition.

JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

In my opinion; this verse makes it plain that "eternal life" is a 'quality of life in time' more than it is a 'quantity of time in life'. And the only 'time' I've had the above qualification has been in 'the aion/age' which I presently am living in.

And you missed a few Greek words with your HELL definition. IT's not just Gehenna in the Greek. It was also HADES and TARTARO. And in the Hebrew it was SHEOL.

As a CHRISTIAN and not a PAGAN it surprises me when people actually think that Jesus actually said the word HELL, just because that's what it says in 'their bible'. The word HELL wasn't even invented until 775 AD.

Hell - Wikipedia​

The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

​

OK, hopefully I can quit now. Spent too much time already.

As the Aussies say; "God Be On Ya mate."
Or as an American; Good Night.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know if that answer means you're still "breath holding" blue in the face or not

hmm me neither, but i guess i better look into that, as that is apparently a habit of mine
dunno where it comes from tbh

Do you agree or disagree that Jesus died for "the sins of the whole world"? Yes or No seems to fit the 'demand' of your challenge in post #20

well, i would agree that Christ did, but i also get how a father may not die for a son’s sins, nor a son for his father’s. Also, there is that rather strange v about Him dying for the sins of “many?”

In my opinion; this verse makes it plain that "eternal life" is a 'quality of life in time' more than it is a 'quantity of time in life'. And the only 'time' I've had the above qualification has been in 'the aion/age' which I presently am living in.

word

And you missed a few Greek words with your HELL definition. IT's not just Gehenna in the Greek. It was also HADES and TARTARO. And in the Hebrew it was SHEOL

my understanding was that sheol and hades had no punishment in them? Tartarus seems to fit tho ya. But to me those are all pretty much “afterlife”/conceptual, whereas Gehenna we can literally see/figuratively toss ppl into

As a CHRISTIAN and not a PAGAN it surprises me when people actually think that Jesus actually said the word HELL, just because that's what it says in 'their bible'. The word HELL wasn't even invented until 775 AD.

Hell - Wikipedia​

The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

seems like it took the internet to make possible our understanding of this most basic concept, ya. I actually first heard it pre-internet, but i think i rejected it at the time.

so i try to be understanding when it is rejected herenow…and keep in mind that Jesus gave some pretty high praise to the cult of sol for their faith.

 

[Behold]

By believing in Jesus Christ with faith alone. His sacrifice, the blood on the cross, is sufficient to wash away all sins. Even if Judas is in Sheol, the realm of the dead, after his suicide, he can still believe in Christ Jesus and have the Holy Spirit enter his body,

There is no Cross in Hell.
There is just damnation and the damned.

John 3:36

Judas, could have been saved.
But, he killed Himself before Jesus died on the Cross for His sin.....So, he died without Salvation., and there is no 2nd Chance in Hell.

 

[Adam]

I read of an NDE (so take with a grain of salt) where the person met Jesus and asked if Judas was in hell. Jesus replied that Judas is in neither heaven nor hell but walks the earth. Jesus said that he knew beforehand of Judas' betrayal and forgave him as soon as he had done it, but that Judas has not yet forgiven himself.

 

[Hillsage]

hmm me neither, but i guess i better look into that, as that is apparently a habit of mine
dunno where it comes from tbh

I appreciate the humility of your answer here tbh.

well, i would agree that Christ did, but i also get how a father may not die for a son’s sins, nor a son for his father’s. Also, there is that rather strange v about Him dying for the sins of “many?”

My answer to your above answer would be this; A father may die for the temporal (aion/age lasting) forgiveness of a son, but he can't die for the adios/eternal consequence sins. I believe that the only Greek word that is correctly translated as ETERNAL in the NT, is the word adios.

0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only)

That's why I asked for a verse ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, with the two words "ETERNAL HELL". And that includes the Greek noun aion and its adjective aionios. I know of no verse, in any translation I know of. And yet, 'eternal hell' is the very premise of all ECT believers in the church today.

tbh word

I'm not sure what you're 'saying' or 'asking' here with that answer????

my understanding was that sheol and hades had no punishment in them? Tartarus seems to fit tho ya. But to me those are all pretty much “afterlife”/conceptual, whereas Gehenna we can literally see/figuratively toss ppl into

My understanding is that the OT sheol and NT hades words for 'the grave' ARE the punishment. It's where the dead/perished body goes to decompose and undergo corruption after death. It returns to ashes or dust, which is what the body was/is made of, but not the spirit or soul. That was the Garden and OT definition of the final consequence for sin........"you shall surely die".

JAM 1:14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Please understand I believe that the death sin causes is first 'soul death' and second is 'body death'. (Matt 10: 28)

EZE 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, IT shall die.
1CO 15:55 "O death/thantos, where is thy victory? O death/HADES, where is thy sting?"

 

[Aunty Jane]

As for it being "too late" for Judas to repent, I disagree. Do you not believe in last minute living 'death bed confessions' of faith.

Since the thief executed alongside Jesus had one of those last minute changes of heart, yes I do....but I do not believe that Jesus promised him anything but a resurrection back to life on earth, according to his Jewish beliefs....not heaven as some in Christendom imagine. Jewish scripture did not teach that man has an immortal soul, but that they would sleep in death awaiting a resurrection. Jesus said he would call the dead from their graves, like he did Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29; John 11:11-14)

Question for you; WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN? If it was at the same time that it was WRITTEN in scripture that Judas had no choice then you must blame GOD for the decision

I assume you understand about God's Omniscience? Because he is all knowing, God is simply foretelling what he foreknew this man would do in the future, we should understand that God is not to blame for any of man's mistakes.
It helps if you know why God did not intervene in any of it....even though he could have....can you tell me why he didn't? Why would he allow Judas to kill himself if he was forgiven?

Do your homework; study the margin note in the NAS bible for your "partially quoted verse" saying it was better for JUDAS to have not been born. When you do, you'll find that it wasn't better for JUDAS. But it would have been better for JESUS who was the "Son of Man".

That NAS margin note says that the LITERAL GREEK word rendering is different than as it is translated in the NAS translation and YOUR translation. I have checked multiple Greek Interlinear bibles in my library confirming the NAS 'margin comment'. And that comment disagrees with your opinion above.

Nominal orthodox translation says;
MAR 14:21 "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for THAT MAN if he had not been born."

LITERAL GREEK says;
MAR 14:21 "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for HIM IF HAD NOT BEEN BORN THAT MAN."

The first man "HIM" being the 'Son of God' and the "THAT MAN" being Judas.

It is very apparent that it can be read both ways and seriously I don't see what difference it makes. Judas sinned against the holy spirit.
The unforgivable sin is deliberate sin against the manifest operation of God’s spirit. It springs from a heart that is thoroughly and forever alienated from God. Judas had no excuse for what he did.

Jewish religious leaders who came to Galilee to see and hear Jesus teach on one occasion had already taken counsel as to how they might destroy him. (Matt 12:14) In Galilee they saw Jesus cure a man who was unable to speak, was blind and demon-possessed. Instead of admitting the obvious fact, that Jesus was performing miracles by means of God’s holy spirit, the Pharisees maliciously accused him of doing it by means of the power of Satan.
After showing how wrong they were, Jesus said:
“Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in the present system of things nor in that to come.” (Matt 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10)
What Judas did was just as bad as those men whom Jesus sentenced to Gehenna. (Matt 23:33)

All sins are forgivable including those "Sins against the spirit are not forgivable."

Since Judas participated in the actions of the holy spirit and experienced its power, he went against it by betraying his Master into the hands of his enemies. It was not a rash decision, but a deliberate, premeditated act that can never be forgiven. Judas knew that and committed suicide.

FYI brief posts to me are best. I don't like spending a lot of time on FORUMS anymore. This is my first time back in a year or so, and I've responded enough for now. I'm tired.

Take your time, you don't have to read every long post all at once.....I take them in increments and reply to them that way. Maybe you can do that too?

As the Aussies say; "God Be On Ya mate."

I have never in my life heard an Aussie say that....

Most Aussies are 'heathens' and proud of it...they don't talk about God much......not like Americans do. When someone is going through a hard time, an Aussie is more likely to say "sorry to hear that mate"...whereas an American will probably say..."I'll pray for you".
But I never hear the person on the receiving end ever say that God made it all better somehow.....that their cat lived after being hit by a car or their Uncle didn't die of cancer because everyone was praying for him......does God just point his finger at people and say..."not today"....? The first century miracles are certainly not duplicated in the so called miracles of today.

I see some prayer requests here sometimes as if God is some kind of genie that is only there to grant wishes.
I seriously wish these people would go and do some serious Bible study and see what God is really doing, instead of
being spoon fed a load of nonsense that just feeds their fantasy about who God is....and what he has been doing all these thousands of years.

 

[Hillsage]

Since the thief executed alongside Jesus had one of those last minute changes of heart, yes I do....but I do not believe that Jesus promised him anything but a resurrection back to life on earth, according to his Jewish beliefs....not heaven as some in Christendom imagine. Jewish scripture did not teach that man has an immortal soul, but that they would sleep in death awaiting a resurrection. Jesus said he would call the dead from their graves, like he did Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29; John 11:11-14)

Jesus did not teach that man has an "Immortal soul" either.

MAT 10:28* And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul/psuche; rather fear him who can destroy/apollumi both soul/psuche and body in hell.

Jesus used an earthly judgment example above and not a heavenly one (eg 'judgment seat of Christ, Great White throne). This judgment takes place on earth and it affects the body and soul but does not affect the spirit.

0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.

MAT 10:39 He that findeth his life/psuche/SOUL shall lose it: and he that loseth/apollumi his life/psuche/SOUL for my sake shall find it.

I assume you understand about God's Omniscience? Because he is all knowing, God is simply foretelling what he foreknew this man would do in the future, we should understand that God is not to blame for any of man's mistakes.
It helps if you know why God did not intervene in any of it....even though he could have....can you tell me why he didn't? Why would he allow Judas to kill himself if he was forgiven?

I do understand the omniscience of God. I also understand the difference betweeen FOREKNOWLEDGE and PREDESTINATION. The bible is pretty clear on that difference.

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/helkuo him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)


ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained/tasso to eternal life believed.

5021 tasso: to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)

It is very apparent that it can be read both ways and seriously I don't see what difference it makes. Judas sinned against the holy spirit.
The unforgivable sin is deliberate sin against the manifest operation of God’s spirit. It springs from a heart that is thoroughly and forever alienated from God. Judas had no excuse for what he did.

Judas did not sin against "the manifest operation of God’s spirit". "FOREVER alienated"????? Are you God?

After showing how wrong they were, Jesus said:
“Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in the present system of things nor in that to come.” (Matt 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10)
What Judas did was just as bad as those men whom Jesus sentenced to Gehenna. (Matt 23:33)

Bad translation used above. Written to promote 'orthodoxy' not 'orthopraxy'.
Matt 12:31 has nothing to do with the subject at hand

YLT MAR 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness - to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

You reap what you sow concerning sin. There is a temporal judgment and their is an eternal/adios judgment. Blaspheme of the HS will not be forgiven in THIS AGE or THE AGE TO COME. But, there are MULTIPLE ages to come, after Jesus made this statement concerning judgment

MAT 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age/aion or in the age/aion to come.

NOw you have concundrum. Does the bible contradict in its determination of the 'punishment' from FOREVER to AN AGE? After Jesus made this Matt 12:32 statement.....over 60 years later, in the book of Ephesians we see a LIGHT (if we have eyes to see). And that LIGHT is this; the grace for OUR SALVATION is still going to be manifested IN THOSE AGES TO COME. Yes, there is a price to be paid by Judas, but it is not and ETERNAL one. It will last for the age he sinned in AND the age (singular) after.

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8* For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --

Thank GOD for 'the gift of His salvation' will be given NOT BY THEIR DOING, but by GOD's doing. IOW PREDESTINATION into the "ages to come". Then they, who were never DRAWN, "CHOSEN, CALLED, PREDESTINED, ORDAINED" by God to believe.....will be receiving the GRACE that saved us.'.

Since Judas participated in the actions of the holy spirit and experienced its power, he went against it by betraying his Master into the hands of his enemies. It was not a rash decision, but a deliberate, premeditated act that can never be forgiven. Judas knew that and committed suicide.

Take your time, you don't have to read every long post all at once.....I take them in increments and reply to them that way. Maybe you can do that too?

Not my forte. IN the decades I've spent on Christian Forums I Find that the deeper the subjects the shorter the attention spans to process those indoctrinated into whatever denomination or sect the divisive devil has trapped them in.

I have never in my life heard an Aussie say that....

WHAT!!! Now I am in trouble. I swear, in another Christian Forum, years ago, one of the Aussies I was "fellowshipping/arguing/discussing with....signed off to me. I thought he said it was common. But maybe it was reagional saying, or just him. I'll have to stop using it. OR just make it my saying. GOD BE ON YA SIS,

Most Aussies are 'heathens' and proud of it...they don't talk about God much......not like Americans do. When someone is going through a hard time, an Aussie is more likely to say "sorry to hear that mate"...whereas an American will probably say..."I'll pray for you".
But I never hear the person on the receiving end ever say that God made it all better somehow.....that their cat lived after being hit by a car or their Uncle didn't die of cancer because everyone was praying for him......does God just point his finger at people and say..."not today"....? The first century miracles are certainly not duplicated in the so called miracles of today.

I see some prayer requests here sometimes as if God is some kind of genie that is only there to grant wishes.
I seriously wish these people would go and do some serious Bible study and see what God is really doing, instead of
being spoon fed a load of nonsense that just feeds their fantasy about who God is....and what he has been doing all these thousands of years.

I'm guess I sorry that you have not experienced the supernatural POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT as I have. On a brighter note I guess you'll never have to worry about 'blaspheming that power' that I've experienced and seen then?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus did not teach that man has an "Immortal soul" either.

Thank you.....most people forget that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures or the Greek.

MAT 10:28* And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul/psuche; rather fear him who can destroy/apollumi both soul/psuche and body in hell.

Jesus used an earthly judgment example above and not a heavenly one (eg 'judgment seat of Christ, Great White throne). This judgment takes place on earth and it affects the body and soul but does not affect the spirit.

0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.

It is interesting to me that in my own studies, the words "soul" and "spirit" are not interchangeable, and yet somewhere along the road to apostasy they merged to become one in the belief of life after death in an immortal, conscious part of man that somehow escapes death altogether. The Jewish belief in the resurrection meant that the person (soul) died and was buried, awaiting the call to come forth from their graves at a future time under the rule of Messiah's Kingdom. Even the Patriarch Job believed in the resurrection. (Job 14:13-15)
An immortal soul does not die, so a resurrection is impossible....you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

MAT 10:39 He that findeth his life/psuche/SOUL shall lose it: and he that loseth/apollumi his life/psuche/SOUL for my sake shall find it.

You see here what Jesus meant....the body dies, but the soul (the conscious person) had hope, in that a future resurrection awaits. God can restore life as easily as he created it. All the resurrections performed in Bible times by Jesus and his apostles, were all restorations of the lives that people lost.....in the flesh, reunited with their families.
The most famous of course was Lazarus. So what did Jesus have to say about him? And how did his sister respond to his death?
Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping".....but he really meant that he was "dead". (John 11:11-14) His sister expressed belief in the "resurrection on the last day" (John 11:24).....so she didn't believe that her brother had gone anywhere. Her expectations were also future.

I do understand the omniscience of God. I also understand the difference betweeen FOREKNOWLEDGE and PREDESTINATION. The bible is pretty clear on that difference.

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/helkuo him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)


ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained/tasso to eternal life believed.

5021 tasso: to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)

I think you are being a little selective in your definitions there.....

Strongs says..."helkō".....

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel.

I know which one describes what God does.....and "dragging" people is something he would never do.....its why we have free will. He leaves our choices up to us....even to the translations we prefer....and why we prefer them.

As for the one in Acts 13:48....it is the positions that are foreordained....not the people who will fill them. That is for God to decide this side of the judgment for his elect, and for Christ to judge at his coming who are "sheep" and who are "goats". We are showing him as we speak who we really are.

Judas did not sin against "the manifest operation of God’s spirit". "FOREVER alienated"????? Are you God?

No, but I think Jesus knows....and I take my cues from him....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Bad translation used above. Written to promote 'orthodoxy' not 'orthopraxy'.
Matt 12:31 has nothing to do with the subject at hand

On the contrary.....Matt 12:31 has everything to do with the fate of Judas.

YLT MAR 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness - to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

You reap what you sow concerning sin. There is a temporal judgment and their is an eternal/adios judgment. Blaspheme of the HS will not be forgiven in THIS AGE or THE AGE TO COME. But, there are MULTIPLE ages to come, after Jesus made this statement concerning judgment

MAT 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age/aion or in the age/aion to come.

Can I ask why you chose the YLT for the rendering of these scriptures?

ASV..... "but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin".

ESV...."but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

Mounce Interlinear..."but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit · will not have forgiveness for all time, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

NASB..."but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

NET..."But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

According to Strongs again.....there are two different words used in Matt 23:32....
The first is "age/aion " meaning the present time, but the second is "mellō" which is....

1. "to be on the point of doing or suffering something
2. to intend, have in mind, think to"

Here there is reference to the future age or time period.

What do you believe these "ages" to be?

NOw you have concundrum. Does the bible contradict in its determination of the 'punishment' from FOREVER to AN AGE? After Jesus made this Matt 12:32 statement.....over 60 years later, in the book of Ephesians we see a LIGHT (if we have eyes to see). And that LIGHT is this; the grace for OUR SALVATION is still going to be manifested IN THOSE AGES TO COME. Yes, there is a price to be paid by Judas, but it is not and ETERNAL one. It will last for the age he sinned in AND the age (singular) after.

Well, you've lost me there in a blur of interpretation....what are these "ages to come"? And how does Judas figure in them when he has been denied the right to any kind of life to come. His punishment is eternal death....the Bible says nothing more than that. That is all there is...eternal life or eternal death....anything in between is from human imagination.

I'm guess I sorry that you have not experienced the supernatural POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT as I have. On a brighter note I guess you'll never have to worry about 'blaspheming that power' that I've experienced and seen then?

Well modern day miracles are for another thread....let's just say that modern manifestations of the spirit are a poor imitation of the original, and we were warned that the devil would use his own power to deceive people with "signs and wonders" but only those "perishing" would be gullible enough to believe in them. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

We are no longer spiritual infants needing to see miracles in order to believe, and that is why God did away with the miracles after the apostolic period. We are supposed to build our faith on the three most important things in a Christian's life..."faith, hope and love".

"When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. . . . But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor 13:11-13)

So...love, along with faith and hope (not miracles) would identify Christ's true disciples. (John 13:34, 35)

 

[amigo de christo]

UNBELIEF . My advice is cease with the cessationism and simply learn and follow Christ .

 

[Patrick1966]

The scriptures are clear. ALL will be with God in the end and we might see David Ben Gurion fishing alongside Adolf Hitler.

 

[Ziggy]

Dipping the bread in the sop and handing it to Judas.
Judas was given a mission.

Jhn 4:32
But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
Jhn 4:33
Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Jhn 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

I'm not the judge. And maybe the disciples didn't understand the plan.

why dip the bread in sop?

Jhn 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Jhn 13:30

He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night

psōmíon, pso-mee'-on; diminutive from a derivative of the base of G5597; a crumb or morsel (as if rubbed off), i.e. a mouthful:—sop.

So Jesus gave Judas a mouthful.

Which one did the will of the Father?

Three times we read that Jesus rebuked Peter.
What for?

Mat 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

At rhis point Jesus turns to Peter and actually calls him Satan.

Mat 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And yet it is Judas who is accused because he carried the purse.
Peter was unwilling to be the one to turn Jesus over to the authorities and yet Judas went.

A Father had two sons.
And he said to the first son, go work in my field. And the son said I will not, but then went.
He came to the second son, go work in my field. And the son said I will, and went not.
Which of the two did the will of the Father?

Many that are first shall be last and the last shall be first.
God's ways are not our ways.
He will Judge accordingly.

Hugs

 

[Hillsage]

Thank you.....most people forget that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures or the Greek.

Actually, I think you might need to reconsider. There were no JEWS in the Pentetuch. There was no 'tribe of Judah' from which the term Jew came from until after Jacob..

It is interesting to me that in my own studies, the words "soul" and "spirit" are not interchangeable, and yet somewhere along the road to apostasy they merged to become one in the belief of life after death in an immortal, conscious part of man that somehow escapes death altogether. The Jewish belief in the resurrection meant that the person (soul) died and was buried, awaiting the call to come forth from their graves at a future time under the rule of Messiah's Kingdom. Even the Patriarch Job believed in the resurrection. (Job 14:13-15)

You are reasoning well, but I would ask to consider adding Ultimate Reconciliation to the true doctrine which was also lost in that very "apostasy" which you just mentioned. I agree we are not a dichotomy of a spirit and body which equals a "living soul". Scripture is plain that we are triune just like the Godhead was and just like Jesus was. We are "spirit, soul, body".1Thes 5:23 But, only the "sinful flesh" body of Jesus is what "the Word" of God became.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became FLESH and dwelt among us.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
But Jesus also had a spirit and soul. And at Gethsemene His "spirit was willing" to die but His "flesh was weak" and His "soul was sorrowful unto death.

An immortal soul does not die, so a resurrection is impossible....you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

IMO Christian's souls and bodies have been dying for 2,000 years. Why? Because they have been sinning for 2,000 years.

You see here what Jesus meant....the body dies, but the soul (the conscious person) had hope, in that a future resurrection awaits. God can restore life as easily as he created it. All the resurrections performed in Bible times by Jesus and his apostles, were all restorations of the lives that people lost.....in the flesh, reunited with their families.

What 'I see' is that the spirit gives animating life force to the body and the soul (mind, will, emotions) give 'motivating life' force to the body (I will, I won't, I can, I can't). And, in agreement with you above all the people who were resurreceted by Jesus during his life and at his crucifixion....all still died again. Would you agree?

The most famous of course was Lazarus. So what did Jesus have to say about him? And how did his sister respond to his death?
Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping".....but he really meant that he was "dead". (John 11:11-14)

I have a different POV. Jesus was talking about Lazarus' soul sleeping while his body was dead because his spirit left his body .

LUK 8:53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise." 55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once;

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
Animating life comes from the spirit!!!

Lazarus' body was awaiting the resurrection of all from the grave to appear before the judgment seat of Christ for the things DONE IN THE SINFUL FLESH while he was living. All the soul does is measure the degree of maturity one attains spiritually after being born again in their spirit.

The spirit being born again becomes the spirit of Christ in us. And that spirit is the same "holy spirit" which Jesus sent to the Father from the cross. It was the spirit of Christ in the sinful flesh body of Jesus which made him the 'son of God', but his sinful flesh body is what made him a "son of man". And his soul is what made him a "son of David". What makes US son's of God, including women? It is the masculine spirit of Christ in us. What makes US brides of Christ? It is the feminine souls that indwell all humans male or female.

OK, I just went down as big a rabbit hole as I am going to address for now. I'm assuming you should have lots to think about, given the paradigm you've shared so far, concerning 'your opinion.

I think you are being a little selective in your definitions there.....

Strongs says..."helkō".....

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel.

And I stand by my 'selective' decision based upon the definition you just posted. I'm amazed you don't agree. Go study the use of helko scripturally does the sword Peter helko/drew have a free will to resist? Did the fish net being helko/drawn into the boat resist with its will. Sorry AJ (Aunty Jane ) helko is in the NT 8 times and not once does 'your opinion' stand the test....In my biblical opinion, of course.

I know which one describes what God does.....and "dragging" people is something he would never do.....its why we have free will. He leaves our choices up to us....even to the translations we prefer....and why we prefer them.

Then we serve a different God. My God does all things after the counsel of His will. And FREE WILL was addressed in one of my first posts here. Nobody responded or refuted me presenting my biblical opinion that there is no such thing as FREE WILL in scripture pertaining to the born again salvation of our spirit. Not FREE, that is, until "whom the son sets FREE is FREE indeed."

No, but I think Jesus knows....and I take my cues from him....

Oh, well excuse me I take my cues from the holy spirit of Christ IN ME, the same spirit that was in Jesus for 33 years. The same spirit that led Him to BECOME PERFECT through the things that he suffered....long before the final suffering of the cross.

God be on ya mate. It's 11:15 pm and I meet a brother at 7:30 for weekly mentoring and of course....java.

 

[Ziggy]

Mar 14:44
And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.

I don't know if at the time Judas understood fully that Jesus was to be put to death.
take him, and lead him away safely.
What an odd thing to say if you are seeking his death.

Luk 22:48
But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

2Co 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Mat 27:3
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 27:4
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Psa 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Judas was given a mission to fulfill prophecy.
If Satan filled Judas with his own spirit, where was Judas' spirit?
Judas didn't do this thing from his own heart. This was put in him to do.
Only after the betrayal was complete did Judas realize he had condemned innocent blood.
It was Satan who betrayed Jesus. Judas was just the vessel used to fulfill it.

And then he went and hanged himself.
Did Judas know? Did Judas have faith?
He knew he was condemned under the law.

Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

of redemption:
Lev 25:47
And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
Lev 25:48
After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Do you believe God won't forgive Judas for being used as a vessel to fulfill prophecy???

Luk 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Mat 27:3
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself,

I think this is one of those tests in the bible where you have to determine the log in your own eye before removing the splinter from your brothers eye.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

None of the disciples were perfect. Each one was called for God's purpose.

Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Is God's mercy to short to reach Judas?

Judas condemned himself, I believe the Lord redeemed him with his own blood.

Jhn 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Lot of people today committing suicide out of great despair. Do you believe there is no hope for them?
I don't. I trust God's mercy.

Hugs