With careful reading you can understand the Bible - Luke 10:18

[face2face]

In a recent thread we partly considered Luke 10:18 which reads, "So he said to them, “I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven"

The usual approach is to use this verse to prove the doctrine that Satan, a rebel angel, was cast from heaven after a great war in Heaven with the forces of Almighty God.

For some here, you will immediately have cause to ask questions of the text to prove, if this was the intended meaning, or did the writer have something entirely different in mind.

My immediate concern is the simile which is 1."fall as lightening from heaven" which is used in a similar way to 2. “The classroom was buzzing like a beehive" or to use a Scriptural example 3. “The Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove.”

In each example the comparison is emphasizing:

1 Fall
2 Buzzing
3 Descended

So in relation to Luke 10:18 we can say the target concept is an adversary (satan) falling. Of course, the lightening provides speed, and heaven (the atmosphere), is where lightening comes from.

What is important to note is the simile cannot be pushed to say Satan was in heaven no more than the buzzing classroom was in the beehive, or the Holy Spirit is a literal dove.

The writer is emphasizing that the adversary was being overcome (fall) by the work of the Lord's disciples. The issue we have is determining precisely what that adversary was. More than not, the adversary changes from Scripture to Scripture as we will see.

Example. Matthew 16:23

So Peter took him (Jesus) aside and began to rebuke him “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

There are occasions in the Bible where the interpretation of a text is provided for us and here is a case in point.

Jesus says: “Get behind me, Satan! because Peter is being an adversary (satan) to Jesus suggesting his death will not happen.

Jesus qualifies Satan as being "because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

The Satan here is easily defined as being Peters fleshly thinking because he is not focusing his mind on the will of God therefore he cannot understand the Lords looming crucifixion.

That's an easy text to interpret, but what about those passages where the adversary is more difficult to unpack and define?

Luke 10:18 is one such passage.

Observations:

The comparison in Luke 10:18 is not that, as lightning falls from heaven so Satan fell from heaven. The point of the comparison is rather that the swiftness of the fall of Satan is as lightning falling from heaven.

So the adversary is not in heaven, or coming from heaven, or falling, or being cast from heaven, but rather its the speed at which this adversary has fallen.

The context in Luke 10:17 indicates its the casting out of demons (or illnesses as is now understood)

We will need to further unpack the language used from antiquity to the early modern period to fully appreciate why they used such terminology.

In conclusion, I appreciate people will have strong views on this subject and even the verses referenced. I do hope we can carefully consider the text without forcing notions which might not be present. There are many Bible verses to consider and rather than being overwhelmed I will try and keep this "on topic", as much as is possible.

F2F

 

[farouk]

In a recent thread we partly considered Luke 10:18 which reads, "So he said to them, “I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven"

The usual approach it to use this verse to prove the doctrine that Satan, a rebel angel, was cast from heaven after a great war in Heaven with the forces of Almighty God.

For some here, you will immediately have cause to ask questions of the text to prove, if this was the intended meaning, or did the writer have something entirely different in mind.

My immediate concern is the simile which is 1."fall as lightening from heaven" which is used in a similar way to 2. “The classroom was buzzing like a beehive" or to use a Scriptural example 3. “The Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove.”

In each example the comparison is emphasizing:

1 Fall
2 Buzzing
3 Descended

So in relation to Luke 10:18 we can say the target concept is an adversary (satan) falling. Of course, the lightening provides speed, and heaven (the atmosphere), is where lightening comes from.

What is important to note is the simile cannot be pushed to say Satan was in heaven no more than the buzzing classroom was in the beehive, or the Holy Spirit is a literal dove.

The writer is emphasizing that the adversary was being overcome (fall) by the work of the Lord's disciples. The issue we have is determining precisely what that adversary was. More than not, the adversary changes from Scripture to Scripture as we will see.

Example. Matthew 16:23

So Peter took him (Jesus) aside and began to rebuke him “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

There are occasions in the Bible where the interpretation of a text is provided for us and here is a case in point.

Jesus says: “Get behind me, Satan! because Peter is being an adversary (satan) to Jesus suggesting his death will not happen.

Jesus qualifies Satan as being "because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

The Satan here is easily defined as being Peters fleshly thinking because he is not focusing his mind on the will of God therefore he cannot understand the Lords looming crucifixion.

That's an easy text to interpret, but what about those passages where the adversary is more difficult to unpack and define?

Luke 10:18 is one such passage.

Observations:

The comparison in Luke 10:18 is not that, as lightning falls from heaven so Satan fell from heaven. The point of the comparison is rather that the swiftness of the fall of Satan is as lightning falling from heaven.

So the adversary is not in heaven, or coming from heaven, or falling, or being cast from heaven, but rather its the speed at which this adversary has fallen.

The context in Luke 10:17 indicates its the casting out of demons (or illnesses as is now understood)

We will need to further unpack the language used from antiquity to the early modern period to fully appreciate why they used such terminology.

In conclusion, I appreciate people will have strong views on this subject and even the verses referenced. I do hope we can carefully consider the text without forcing notions which might not be present. There are many Bible verses to consider and rather than being overwhelmed I will try and keep this "on topic", as much as is possible.

F2F

@face2face Yes, in a calm and steadfast spirit, we need instead to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2), right?

 

[face2face]

@face2face Yes, in a calm and steadfast spirit, we need instead to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2), right?

Correct! The war is in ourselves and we certainly need not create another celestial one of our own making.
Galatians 5:17

 

[face2face]

What did the word daimonion mean to the Greeks? It was first applied to gods generally, and later to the inferior gods. It was thought that these inferior gods, or demons, were the departed spirits of human beings. Good demons came from good men, and bad demons from bad men. Bad demons preyed upon human beings, entering their bodies and causing certain maladies. People with such ailments as madness, deafness and dumbness were described as being possessed with demons. It is interesting to note that the types of ailments attributed to demons were those which could not be related to an obvious physical condition. Lameness was not attributed to demons because the abnormal condition of lame people’s limbs provided an explanation for their halting gait. But mad people, deaf people and dumb people looked like others—there was no simple physiological explanation that they knew of and so demon possession was postulated. A comparison of Matthew 9:28 and Matthew 9:32 illustrates this.

 

[Cassandra]

What is important to note is the simile cannot be pushed to say Satan was in heaven no more than the buzzing classroom was in the beehive, or the Holy Spirit is a literal dove

I must be extra foggy today. Are you saying that Satan was not in Heaven?

Eze 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

 

[face2face]

I must be extra foggy today. Are you saying that Satan was not in Heaven?

Eze 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

I too must be foggy because you have quoted a verse from Ezekiel 28 speaking of Israels relationship with Tyre.

This passage nowhere mentions the terms "devil", "satan", or "fallen angel"? Have you considered the context of verse 14?

It's actually a great study let me know if you want to dig a little deeper.

F2F

P.S also the important point from the OP is the simile cannot be pushed literally if that makes sense...that's not how simile's work.

 

[Taken]

With careful reading you can understand the Bible - Luke 10:18
OP ^

With careful reading you can gain true KNOWLEDGE God has revealed to mankind.

With the Baptism of the Holy Spirit you can gain “spiritual UNDERSTANDING” “according to God” (of Gods Knowledge).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

In a recent thread we partly considered Luke 10:18 which reads, "So he said to them, “I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven"

The usual approach is to use this verse to prove the doctrine that Satan, a rebel angel, was cast from heaven after a great war in Heaven with the forces of Almighty God.

For some here, you will immediately have cause to ask questions of the text to prove, if this was the intended meaning, or did the writer have something entirely different in mind.

My immediate concern is the simile which is 1."fall as lightening from heaven" which is used in a similar way to 2. “The classroom was buzzing like a beehive" or to use a Scriptural example 3. “The Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove.”

In each example the comparison is emphasizing:

1 Fall
2 Buzzing
3 Descended

So in relation to Luke 10:18 we can say the target concept is an adversary (satan) falling. Of course, the lightening provides speed, and heaven (the atmosphere), is where lightening comes from.

What is important to note is the simile cannot be pushed to say Satan was in heaven no more than the buzzing classroom was in the beehive, or the Holy Spirit is a literal dove.

The writer is emphasizing that the adversary was being overcome (fall) by the work of the Lord's disciples. The issue we have is determining precisely what that adversary was. More than not, the adversary changes from Scripture to Scripture as we will see.

Example. Matthew 16:23

So Peter took him (Jesus) aside and began to rebuke him “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

There are occasions in the Bible where the interpretation of a text is provided for us and here is a case in point.

Jesus says: “Get behind me, Satan! because Peter is being an adversary (satan) to Jesus suggesting his death will not happen.

Jesus qualifies Satan as being "because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

The Satan here is easily defined as being Peters fleshly thinking because he is not focusing his mind on the will of God therefore he cannot understand the Lords looming crucifixion.

That's an easy text to interpret, but what about those passages where the adversary is more difficult to unpack and define?

Luke 10:18 is one such passage.

Observations:

The comparison in Luke 10:18 is not that, as lightning falls from heaven so Satan fell from heaven. The point of the comparison is rather that the swiftness of the fall of Satan is as lightning falling from heaven.

So the adversary is not in heaven, or coming from heaven, or falling, or being cast from heaven, but rather its the speed at which this adversary has fallen.

The context in Luke 10:17 indicates its the casting out of demons (or illnesses as is now understood)

We will need to further unpack the language used from antiquity to the early modern period to fully appreciate why they used such terminology.

In conclusion, I appreciate people will have strong views on this subject and even the verses referenced. I do hope we can carefully consider the text without forcing notions which might not be present. There are many Bible verses to consider and rather than being overwhelmed I will try and keep this "on topic", as much as is possible.

F2F

Stop focusing on literary interpretations--they are "foolishness" (according to scripture).

Instead: Simply READ...and wait for understanding by God's spiritual discernment. That is the promise.

On the contrary...language has been clearly stated in the scriptures as "confused" by God. Why should any of God's people be the victims of what God has meant for the ungodly?

 

[Cassandra]

I too must be foggy because you have quoted a verse from Ezekiel 28 speaking of Israels relationship with Tyre.

This passage nowhere mentions the terms "devil", "satan", or "fallen angel"? Have you considered the context of verse 14?

It's actually a great study let me know if you want to dig a little deeper.

F2F

P.S also the important point from the OP is the simile cannot be pushed literally if that makes sense...that's not how simile's work.

That is God speaking of Lucifer, not Israel and Tyre. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." I believe this says exactly what it says.

Think I'll pass on that study. Thanks for the offer though.

 

[ScottA]

I too must be foggy because you have quoted a verse from Ezekiel 28 speaking of Israels relationship with Tyre.

This passage nowhere mentions the terms "devil", "satan", or "fallen angel"? Have you considered the context of verse 14?

It's actually a great study let me know if you want to dig a little deeper.

F2F

P.S also the important point from the OP is the simile cannot be pushed literally if that makes sense...that's not how simile's work.

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

 

[Mantis]

With careful reading you can understand the Bible - Luke 10:18
OP ^

With careful reading you can gain true KNOWLEDGE God has revealed to mankind.

With the Baptism of the Holy Spirit you can gain “spiritual UNDERSTANDING” “according to God” (of Gods Knowledge).

Glory to God,
Taken

How can one be baptized of the Holy Spirit?

 

[face2face]

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

The nature of the adversary is an interesting study. I have a challenge for you ScottA. The adversary is attributed to God in every occurrence Job 42:11 and there are a lot of them!

Also nowhere in the book of Job is Satan explicitly stated to be a fallen angel.

 

[face2face]

That is God speaking of Lucifer, not Israel and Tyre. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." I believe this says exactly what it says.

Think I'll pass on that study. Thanks for the offer though.

So...you jump to Isaiah 14 where it tells you who the "day star" is..."Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased!" (Isaiah 14:4). (The preceding chapter is a prophecy against Babylon itself, but now the prophecy is directed against the king of Babylon).

Can you see how problematic your use of Scripture is, and you fail to consider the context in both instances.

Its all there is you only read with care (the OP!)

 

[face2face]

Did everyone grab this point?

There was no simple physiological explanation that they knew of and so demon possession was postulated. A comparison of Matthew 9:28 and Matthew 9:32 illustrates this.

 

[face2face]

Stop focusing on literary interpretations--they are "foolishness" (according to scripture).

Romans 15:4

 

[amigo de christo]

Correct! The war is in ourselves and we certainly need not create another celestial one of our own making.
Galatians 5:17

And yet many are creating a false love god of their own making and not of the one true image of GOD .
What kind of generation would preach That all religoins save . THEY Ought to be warning the lost , ONLY JESUS can SAVE YOU .
Yet today we have us a love god that actually sounds like satan and not GOD . cause what kind of love
would leave souls in danger of hell fire , IN SAID DANGER by allowing them to believe thier own false religoin can save them
and that GOD is in all religoins . WHEN IN TRUTH is only THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS that BELONG TO GOD . PONDER DEEPLY ON THAT
my dear friend and let no man take thy crown by beleiving this false all inclusive love gospel which is damning all souls who beleive it .

 

[face2face]

ONLY JESUS can SAVE YOU .

Amen to that
Acts 4:12

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen to that
Acts 4:12

I would like to ask you another question my friend . So bear with me .
You do realize that Its only those WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS , Confessing HIM by mouth and believing from the heart
that GOD has rose him from the dead , that ARE SAVED .
I say this , due to a nasty false lie that is spreading so fast these days .
Its called inclusvism . POPE francis is heavily infected with it and decieves the masses of all peoples tribes tongues and kings
with this very lie .
HE believes that all religoins are serving the same GOD , that as long as one does GOOD HE IS of GOD , IS SAVED
and KNOWS JESUS . BUT that IS A LIE from hell itself . Spawned only by satan .
For if one believes not in JESUS , they are damned , JUST like JESUS said they would be . NEVER BELIEVE this lie .
Instead , let us tell the people as did the true apostels , TO REPENT and BELEIVE IN JESUS CHRIST .

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: with careful reading you can understand The Bible?
One can learn from reading, but understanding is based on:

A) IF one is a natural man:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co_2:14) foolishness Is NOT Equal To understanding!

B) IF one is a spiritual (with The Indwelling Spirit Of God) man, Then:

1) "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which The Holy Ghost Teacheth; Comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1Co 2:13) What Does This Teacher Command?:

2) "Study to shew thyself Approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word of Truth." (2Ti 2:15)
​

C) Are there any Other Bible "study" Rules that are applicable to understanding?:

(1) “Let ALL things be done Decently and In Order!”
(1_Corinthians_14:40 KJB!)

(2) Study ALL Scripture Rightly Divided! :

“Study to shew thyself Approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!”
(2_Timothy_2:15 KJB!)

(3) Never Ever add to, Or take away From, God’s PURE And Holy Word!
{ Including "God's Contexts!," [Prophecy] Rightly Divided from [MYSTERY!] }
(Deuteronomy_4:2, 12:32; Proverbs_30:5-6; Revelation_22:18,19 KJB!)

(4) Be noble students :

“These (in Berea) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in
that they received The Word with all readiness of mind, and
searched The Scriptures daily, Whether Those Things Were So!”
(Acts_17:11 KJB!)

(5) Build Sound Doctrine, God’s Way! :

(5a) "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
(Isaiah_28:10, 13 KJB!)

(5b) Find ALL Related Scriptures For A Specific doctrine! :

”ALL Scripture Is Given By Inspiration Of God, And Is
Profitable For Doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness : that the man of God may
be perfect, throughly furnished unto ALL good works!”
(2_Timothy_3:16-17 KJB!)

(5c) Compare ALL Related Scriptures to learn and know a
Specific doctrine! :

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s
wisdom teacheth, but Which The Holy Ghost Teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual!”
(1_Corinthians_2:13 KJB!)
{Comparing Scripture With Scripture!}

“Simplicity” in CHRIST! (2_Corinthians_11:3 KJB!) Amen?

(6) The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :
The BIBLE Itself!

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures
by the "few" difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always
Interpret the few Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses
By ALL Of The MANY Plain and Clear Passages Of
God’s Pure And Holy Word!
+
ONE Final Excellent Rule for Knowledgeable Bible study! :

(7) In order to Honor The Father And The SON (John_5:22-23 KJB!),
in Preparation For Judgment, Always keep {Uppermost} in mind:

”Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do,
do ALL to The Glory Of God!” (1_Corinthians_10:31 KJB!)
-------------------------------
And then we ALL, who are "Called Into Fellowship With
God's SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST" (1_Corinthians_1:9 KJB!),
And,

"Endeavouring For The Unity Of God's Spirit In The Bond Of
PEACE!..." (Ephesians_4:3 KJB!), can obey God's Exhortations! :

”...speak...the things which become Sound Doctrine!”
(Titus_2:1 cp "SAME mind And judgment!" 1_Corinthians_1:10 KJB!)
Amen?

Would the Results of following All of God’s Rules Above Be:

“That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in
love, and unto all Riches of the Full Assurance Of Understanding,
to the acknowledgement of The Mystery Of God, and of the Father,
and of CHRIST!” (Colossians_2:2 KJB!)?
---------------------
Conclusion: simply careful reading, Or:

Prayerful/Careful "study" per All Of the above, for understanding?:

Do we understand What God Would Have us all "see" Today?:

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL “to SEE,” today,?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified in
understanding God's Simple Will!​

 

[face2face]

I would like to ask you another question my friend . So bear with me .
You do realize that Its only those WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS , Confessing HIM by mouth and believing from the heart
that GOD has rose him from the dead , that ARE SAVED .
I say this , due to a nasty false lie that is spreading so fast these days .
Its called inclusvism . POPE francis is heavily infected with it and decieves the masses of all peoples tribes tongues and kings
with this very lie .
HE believes that all religoins are serving the same GOD , that as long as one does GOOD HE IS of GOD , IS SAVED
and KNOWS JESUS . BUT that IS A LIE from hell itself . Spawned only by satan .
For if one believes not in JESUS , they are damned , JUST like JESUS said they would be . NEVER BELIEVE this lie .
Instead , let us tell the people as did the true apostels , TO REPENT and BELEIVE IN JESUS CHRIST .

Best for another thread I suggest - keeping to the OP. Thanks