What and when is the rapture part two?

[n2thelight]

Then you remain wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

Let's start at the subject

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No actually I'm not denying scripture, but you go ahead and believe that.

Paul very clearly and straightforwardly referred to the body, soul and spirit in 1 Thess 5:23. And the soul and spirit are referred to separately in Hebrews 4:12 as well. Those verses are scripture and you are denying what they teach. So, yes, I will go ahead and believe you are denying scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not ashamed of believing the truth.

Yes you are! Because you constantly deny it for this slick reinterpretation of Scripture by the Watchtower! They are damned and they are taking you with them if you die in this state!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It's from the bible so it's not a lie. What you believe in is the lie.

I know you honestly believe it's in the Bible, but it's not.
I know that when Genesis 2:7 says that God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul it means
Adam didn't exist until God took dust from the ground and formed him and breathed the breath of life into him.
So when God at Genesis 3:19 said to Adam that he would return to the dust of the ground from which he was taken because of his disobedience that means he goes back to non-existence. That scripture at Genesis 3:19 God states to Adam, "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." The word "you" used here in this scripture regarding Adam shows me that God is talking to the person who is Adam. When the word you is used that person is being addressed, not just one part of a person as so many are trying to say. So for anybody to say that person continues to exist when a person grow old and dies, I will never agree with that because they don't believe death to be non-existence. Everything I've read in the scriptures regarding death shows death to be the opposite of life. If you are a living person then you are aware of your surroundings, you have feelings and emotions and memories. If you're dead you have none of these. Death is the opposite of life.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes you are! Because you constantly deny it for this slick reinterpretation of Scripture by the Watchtower! They are damned and they are taking you with them if you die in this state!

You want to believe what I believe to be true and from the scriptures is a slick reinterpretation of scripture that's your choice. Just understand that you haven't convinced me of what you're saying to be true is actually true.
I know that there were those when Jesus was on the earth who thought Jesus wasn't teaching the truth from the scriptures. There were even those who thought he was the leader of the demons.
I let people choose to believe what they choose to believe is the truth concerning the scriptures, because that's their right. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to agree with them. I understand that there will be disagreements of what different people say is scripturally the truth. I will state what I honestly believe to be true and those who disagree with that, it is their right to disagree. That doesn't necessarily mean that because they disagree with what I'm saying is true and from the scriptures that it isn't true and from the scriptures, it just means they disagree.

 

[Timtofly]

We are not souls with a body. We are souls. Saying we are souls with a body is different from the statement, we are souls. Our flesh and blood bodies that breathe oxygen and eats food and drinks water is a soul. It isn't a soul with a body.
You are in error about what Paul wrote about. Paul didn't teach that the soul has two different bodies. Those who will be in heaven with Jesus when they die will be resurrected with a different body. They will not be a soul but an immortal incorruptible spirit being. So saying Paul was saying the soul has two different bodies is not what he said. He was saying those who will be in heaven with Jesus when resurrected will be changed , meaning they will not be souls but changed to immortal incorruptible spirit beings. So Paul wasn't saying the soul has two bodies.

So Jesus no longer has a soul, body, and spirit? If we are a different soul, we would no longer be ourselves, but a totally different person. Your explanation does not make sense at all. We go from Adam's dead corruptible physical body to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The soul moves out of this earthly temporal tent into a permanent building from God. That is 2 Corinthians 5:1. You cannot logically make an argument against the body being the soul, if you insist the spiritual body is the soul. That is literally the same thing just a different body. The soul is who we are, the body is what we put on. Read 1 Corinthians 15 again. The dead body does not put on another body over the dead body. The soul sheds one body in death, and rises into the new permanent incorruptible physical body in resurrection into Paradise. Since the thief on the Cross, that is instantaneously. Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise that day, not at some future singular day resurrection of all souls. The Cross was the only last day resurrection of souls without bodies. Matthew 27 said many bodies came out of their tombs. Many being all the redeemed. Since all souls did not, but only many, those who did not come forth were still dead in sheol. They would still have to wait for the GWT.

 

[Timtofly]

No. He went to Abrahams Bosom/ Paradise! Jesus had not poured out His blood on the heavenly mercy seat and had not ascended yet. so the righteous dead still went to Abraham Bosom/Paradise which is now closed and the first compartment of hell.

Abraham's bosom was empty and closed when the thief died a few hours later. The thief did not go to Abraham's bosom. The thief was the first NT church to die after Abraham's bosom was no longer a thing. Paradise is not Abraham's bosom. Paradise is that city in heaven that Abraham longed for, but had to wait in the place named for him, until the Cross. The Cross opened Paradise wide. It was no longer closed to Adam's descendants. Because the last man Jesus Christ presented the whole OT assembly as the firstfruits when He ascended that Sunday morning after telling Mary he was about to do that. That is why Paul stated each in their own order. The bodies left the grave/Abraham's bosom when Jesus declared death was satisfied. When Jesus declared the Atonement was finished.

Abraham's bosom was Christ, the firstfruits. The death, burial, and Resurrection was the first presentation of Adam's redeemed flesh to God, and the return to Paradise. The thief on the Cross was the first NT redeemed soul to enter Paradise upon death, instead of the OT way of waiting in Abraham's bosom. Jesus declared it was finished hours before the thief died.

Remember they had to make sure Jesus was dead hours later? That is when they put the spear in his side to declare him dead, even though it had already been finished by God. It took hours for the other two to die. The Romans enjoyed long torturous deaths. But death was assured when the leg bones were broken, and the two thieves died at that point. They did not brake any bones in the body once occupied by Jesus. They checked by using the spear in the side. That is why when God declared the death of Jesus sooner, it was a miracle to the centurion. Jesus did not die by torture nor the Cross. God was the Lamb on God's terms, not man's.

Many seem to equate Abraham's bosom with Paradise? How? Paradise is where the tree of life is. Paul visited Paradise years after the Cross. If Abraham's bosom was emptied and closed at the Cross, Abraham's bosom no longer existed. Yet Paul declared Paradise was the third heaven. Abraham's bosom was not the third heaven. It was located across an abyss from sheol. It was a place in sheol where Satan declared power over the soul without torment. But until the physical death and resurrection of Christ those souls in Abraham's bosom could not have a physical body. After the Cross and physical resurrection, those souls were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to eternally enjoy Paradise, which in the NHNE is called New Jerusalem.

If people are not going to differentiate and name phenomenon how do we communicate ideas in agreement? Was there not a change in the location of the dead at the Cross?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You want to believe what I believe to be true and from the scriptures is a slick reinterpretation of scripture that's your choice. Just understand that you haven't convinced me of what you're saying to be true is actually true.
I know that there were those when Jesus was on the earth who thought Jesus wasn't teaching the truth from the scriptures. There were even those who thought he was the leader of the demons.
I let people choose to believe what they choose to believe is the truth concerning the scriptures, because that's their right. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to agree with them. I understand that there will be disagreements of what different people say is scripturally the truth. I will state what I honestly believe to be true and those who disagree with that, it is their right to disagree. That doesn't necessarily mean that because they disagree with what I'm saying is true and from the scriptures that it isn't true and from the scriptures, it just means they disagree.

Then we should agree to disagree and move on. I will challenge you every time our paths cross, in the hopes one day you will receive the truth about Jesus physical resurrection and be saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Abraham's bosom was empty and closed when the thief died a few hours later. The thief did not go to Abraham's bosom. The thief was the first NT church to die after Abraham's bosom was no longer a thing. Paradise is not Abraham's bosom. Paradise is that city in heaven that Abraham longed for, but had to wait in the place named for him, until the Cross. The Cross opened Paradise wide. It was no longer closed to Adam's descendants. Because the last man Jesus Christ presented the whole OT assembly as the firstfruits when He ascended that Sunday morning after telling Mary he was about to do that. That is why Paul stated each in their own order. The bodies left the grave/Abraham's bosom when Jesus declared death was satisfied. When Jesus declared the Atonement was finished.

Abraham's bosom was Christ, the firstfruits. The death, burial, and Resurrection was the first presentation of Adam's redeemed flesh to God, and the return to Paradise. The thief on the Cross was the first NT redeemed soul to enter Paradise upon death, instead of the OT way of waiting in Abraham's bosom. Jesus declared it was finished hours before the thief died.

Wrong wrong wrong!

the church was born at Pentecost so the thief cannot be a member of the body of Christ!

Abrahmas Bosom/ Paradise is a place, not a person. It was closed when jesus ascended to heaven. form that point on, the righteous who died went straight to heaven where paradise is located within.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So Jesus no longer has a soul, body, and spirit? If we are a different soul, we would no longer be ourselves, but a totally different person. Your explanation does not make sense at all. We go from Adam's dead corruptible physical body to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The soul moves out of this earthly temporal tent into a permanent building from God. That is 2 Corinthians 5:1. You cannot logically make an argument against the body being the soul, if you insist the spiritual body is the soul. That is literally the same thing just a different body. The soul is who we are, the body is what we put on. Read 1 Corinthians 15 again. The dead body does not put on another body over the dead body. The soul sheds one body in death, and rises into the new permanent incorruptible physical body in resurrection into Paradise. Since the thief on the Cross, that is instantaneously. Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise that day, not at some future singular day resurrection of all souls. The Cross was the only last day resurrection of souls without bodies. Matthew 27 said many bodies came out of their tombs. Many being all the redeemed. Since all souls did not, but only many, those who did not come forth were still dead in sheol. They would still have to wait for the GWT.

You either believe the scripture at 1Corinthians 15:45 or you do not.
Jesus wasn't resurrected with the same body that he sacrificed. Jesus is no longer a human being who needs to breathe oxygen eat food or drink water to continue living. Human beings do need to breathe oxygen eat food and drink water to continue living. So Jesus was no longer a human being. Human beings are souls, they don't have a soul.

You're going to have to explain to me what you mean by saying, "If we are a different soul, we would no longer be ourselves, but a totally different person."

When it comes to those who are resurrected with immortality and who inherit incorruption that only applies to those who are the anointed, who are born again. They are the ones who will be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom. That doesn't apply to every righteous person.
There are those who God will judge as righteous who will be resurrected back on earth and they will be the subjects of that heavenly Messianic kingdom. God through his Only Begotten Son and that heavenly Messianic kingdom arrangement will make this earth a paradise.

That thief that died alongside Jesus, he told that thief, "truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." When Jesus said that, Jesus wasn't telling him that he would be in heaven with him that very day. Jesus was dead for three days, you do believe that right? The scriptures also show that after Jesus resurrection he didn't go to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.
That thief will be resurrected on earth sometime after Armageddon.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Then we should agree to disagree and move on. I will challenge you every time our paths cross, in the hopes one day you will receive the truth about Jesus physical resurrection and be saved.

Yes I agree we should move on

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong wrong wrong!

the church was born at Pentecost so the thief cannot be a member of the body of Christ!

What is this nonsense? Does the thief on the cross not belong to Christ? Of course He does. All who belong to Christ are in the church/body of Christ. Why are you trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one body?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What is this nonsense? Does the thief on the cross not belong to Christ? Of course He does. All who belong to Christ are in the church/body of Christ. Why are you trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one body?

Those who exercise faith and judged as righteous are not all of the heavenly calling these of the heavenly calling will be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom. They when resurrected are given immortality and inherit incorruption.
But there are those God judges as being righteous who will be the subjects of that heavenly Messianic kingdom they will be ruled over by those of the heavenly calling. These who are the subjects of that heavenly Messianic kingdom are resurrected on earth. These who will be resurrected on earth will not be given immortality or inherit incorruption as those of the heavenly calling will. They will get eternal life if they remain obedient to the True God and will eventually become sinless perfect humans who will not grow old and die, get sick and die or be hungry and never be homeless.
The anointed or born again who are of the heavenly calling and who will be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom is the Church. That thief isn't one of those who God called. He exercised faith in Jesus yes but not everyone who exercises faith and judged as righteous is one of the anointed or born again. God chooses among those who he has judged as righteous which ones he will call who will be of one of the anointed or one of those born again.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes I agree we should move on

We shall battle again on another thread!.

 

[Timtofly]

Wrong wrong wrong!

the church was born at Pentecost so the thief cannot be a member of the body of Christ!

Abrahmas Bosom/ Paradise is a place, not a person. It was closed when jesus ascended to heaven. form that point on, the righteous who died went straight to heaven where paradise is located within.

Paul was the only other person besides Jesus who ever used the word "Paradise" . Are you using some extra biblical man made orthodox teaching not found in Scripture? Because Paul defined Paradise as the third heaven. Your definition goes contrary to Paul and Scripture.

What do you think the Cross did, any less than Pentecost? You do realize that Pentecost defining the church is not about one's final destination. Pentecost was about the church having power on earth to spread the Gospel.

The Cross opened up Paradise; not Pentecost. Pentecost was the Holy Spirit observed. It only happened once. Should you then claim no one since then has the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit does not come visibly in a tongue of fire?

The thief died after the Atonement, and is covered by the Atonement after Paradise was opened. Pentecost did not open Paradise, the Atonement did, unless you can prove otherwise. No one could enter Paradise prior to the Cross, that is why they were in Abraham's bosom.

Do you think heaven is a segregated place with different rooms for different types of redeemed people?

You can label people all day long. I was just pointing out, souls no longer go to Abraham's bosom. They now go to Paradise.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is this nonsense? Does the thief on the cross not belong to Christ? Of course He does. All who belong to Christ are in the church/body of Christ. Why are you trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one body?

OT saints are not part of teh body of Christ!

JOhn the Baptist was called the least in the kingdom. Also he was called the friend of the bridegroom and not the bride.

sorry but the church was born at Pentecost! If the thief had remained alive till then, then yes, he would be part of the body. But He was an OT saint, saved and redeemed but not part of the body!

Paul made it clear in Corinthians that only those baptized in or by th espirit are part of teh body and that did not occur until Pentecost!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul was the only other person besides Jesus who ever used the word "Paradise" . Are you using some extra biblical man made orthodox teaching not found in Scripture? Because Paul defined Paradise as the third heaven. Your definition goes contrary to Paul and Scripture.

What do you think the Cross did, any less than Pentecost? You do realize that Pentecost defining the church is not about one's final destination. Pentecost was about the church having power on earth to spread the Gospel.

The Cross opened up Paradise; not Pentecost. Pentecost was the Holy Spirit observed. It only happened once. Should you then claim no one since then has the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit does not come visibly in a tongue of fire?

The thief died after the Atonement, and is covered by the Atonement after Paradise was opened. Pentecost did not open Paradise, the Atonement did, unless you can prove otherwise. No one could enter Paradise prior to the Cross, that is why they were in Abraham's bosom.

Do you think heaven is a segregated place with different rooms for different types of redeemed people?

You can label people all day long. I was just pointing out, souls no longer go to Abraham's bosom. They now go to Paradise.

Wrong!

2 Corinthians 12
King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Those little tiny words make all the difference!

Paul was caught up TO the 3rd heaven, and when he was caught up TO the third heaven, he was caught up INTO Paradise.

If historical scholarship is accurate, the paradise in heaven is the very garden Adam and Eve were kicked out of and the chrubim guarded until teh flood!

Why do I say that?

Revelation 22
King James Version

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Where was the tree of life after the six days of creation? In paradise we call Eden! So paradise (Eden) if located within the thrid heaven.

whjat happened to Abrahams Bosom/Paradise of OT times? I don't know. It was emptied. The bible doesn't say what happened to it, so I won't say so dogmatically as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OT saints are not part of teh body of Christ!

Of course they are. What are you basing that on? Have you never read this passage:

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

JOhn the Baptist was called the least in the kingdom. Also he was called the friend of the bridegroom and not the bride.

sorry but the church was born at Pentecost! If the thief had remained alive till then, then yes, he would be part of the body. But He was an OT saint, saved and redeemed but not part of the body!

Paul made it clear in Corinthians that only those baptized in or by th espirit are part of teh body and that did not occur until Pentecost!

OT saints were brought into the body of Christ by the blood of Christ just as we all are. As Paul said, "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ". You are trying to make a division among the people of God which is shameful. Christ brought all believers, Jew and Gentile, male and female, OT and NT saint, etc. together as one! Moses, Noah, David, Ruth, Esther, Abraham, Isaiah and the rest are all our brothers and sisters in Christ in the one body of Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

You either believe the scripture at 1Corinthians 15:45 or you do not.
Jesus wasn't resurrected with the same body that he sacrificed. Jesus is no longer a human being who needs to breathe oxygen eat food or drink water to continue living. Human beings do need to breathe oxygen eat food and drink water to continue living. So Jesus was no longer a human being. Human beings are souls, they don't have a soul.

You're going to have to explain to me what you mean by saying, "If we are a different soul, we would no longer be ourselves, but a totally different person."

When it comes to those who are resurrected with immortality and who inherit incorruption that only applies to those who are the anointed, who are born again. They are the ones who will be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom. That doesn't apply to every righteous person.
There are those who God will judge as righteous who will be resurrected back on earth and they will be the subjects of that heavenly Messianic kingdom. God through his Only Begotten Son and that heavenly Messianic kingdom arrangement will make this earth a paradise.

That thief that died alongside Jesus, he told that thief, "truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." When Jesus said that, Jesus wasn't telling him that he would be in heaven with him that very day. Jesus was dead for three days, you do believe that right? The scriptures also show that after Jesus resurrection he didn't go to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.
That thief will be resurrected on earth sometime after Armageddon.

Adam was made dead flesh, because of his disobedience. Jesus was the Atonement in obedience. That is all Paul was declaring in 1 Corinthians 15:42-51. You are taking one verse out of context and defining the entire creation. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture, not base an entire point from one verse.

Jesus was God. You don't think God had to wait over 40 days but was stuck on earth, do you? The thief was in Paradise the instant his soul left one body and took up residence in the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Do you think Paradise means sand dunes for hundreds of square miles with nothing to eat? Someone pointed out that even angels eat manna. Do they need to?

Jesus was not dead for 3 days. The physical body lay in the tomb for that period of time, and then could not even be found. It was gone before the stone was rolled away. The point being the Jews had to think the body was in the tomb. Jesus could have just as easily gotten off the Cross and walked away that day. Remember, Jesus told them He would be in the grave for 3 days. He did not tell them He would jump off of the Cross. The Hebrews had some issue about a soul not being dead until after 3 days. That is why Jesus waited 4 days after Lazarus was buried. Does no one here see that point? Some declare one cannot even be the body of Christ until over 40 days after death or some ceremonial cultural thing. Being in Christ does not require some human ritual. But God does work with the culture in terms of the culture of that day and time God is working.

If the means of the Roman's death sentence was the electric chair in the first century we would be talking about a chair and not a Cross. People would have chairs hanging around their necks instead of crosses.

Not sure why you seem to separate creation so drastically? Paradise is the same physical makeup of life on earth. It is just physical life in heaven. Do you think humans are going to turn into stars/angels? Jesus says we will only be like the angels in one aspect: No procreation. Why are you adding way more to creation than God's Word already gives us? We certainly don't become planets. Do you think that is what Paul meant? Why would one human soul become an entire planet?

"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

Do you think Paul was saying we literally become planets? Paul was using comparisons, not stating what we will become.

You all really don't get it. Adam used to be this totally different spirit being you think we will all be some day. Adam was not a prototype, then evolved into current us, and will soon evolve into a totally different spiritual entity. No! Definitely not.

Adam was a perfect soul, body, and spirit without sin. Adam disobeyed placing all his descendants into death. Jesus came to restore humanity back to the Adam God created on day 6. Those currently in Paradise since the Cross have been physically restored. At the Second Coming all the redeemed will be spiritually restored. That is the spiritual restoration, not a spiritual body. The body has always been physical. The spirit has always been spiritual. The soul has been in a dead corruptible body. The spirit has been separated from us and has been with God. At the Second Coming the spirit will be re-united to the soul and body. We are the soul. We put on a physical body, and the physical body puts on a spirit.

While the Bible we have comes from Greek and Latin influences of the Greeks and Romans, it is not Greek and Roman mythology. It was written in such a way not to be used as mythology. But it certainly was understood more by them than some today. Most today want to redefine creation itself and how it works. You all have gone overboard in the opposite direction of ancient teachings, and are influenced by Satan's current science. You cannot even see how heaven and earth works, because it is simple and not as complicated as you all have been led to accept.

 

[Timtofly]

God chooses among those who he has judged as righteous which ones he will call who will be of one of the anointed or one of those born again.

Historically those in Paradise are fully restored, soul, body, and spirit.

Those on earth are only soul and body.

That is the only difference. When the New Jerusalem comes to earth, that may change. Do you think those living inside New Jerusalem will want to exchange their city home with those living out in the country, in a fair trade of residence? Or just want to maintain two dwelling places, a "winter" and "summer" home? Think about who lives where, not who does what. If God has done all the decision making, what difference does a human make in doing anything? Obedience to God is all we have. What we do in obedience is His will, not what we come up with our own understandings.