What and when is the rapture part two?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You can go on and on with this, saying the same things but you and I have clearly understood each other to not agree on this.

then explain to me , why you believe after the dead are raised, those that are not dead (alive) and remain (on earth) are caught up. Please explain how that is part of the resurrection.[/QUOTE]

As I said Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44 tells us that those who will be in heaven with Jesus Christ must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return because they're already living during the time of Jesus second presence. So unlike those who slept in death for thousands of years before the second presence of Jesus Christ began these who who are righteous and still living on earth during Jesus second presence will at the moment of their death are changed at the twinkling of an eye and instantly “caught up,” to be with the Lord. 1Corinthians 15:51,52; Revelations 14:13.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I know you believe that 2nd presence took place in 1914, after the watchtower until 1930 said it was 1874. So where is jesus???? If He is king- why isn't he ruling with a rod of iron as Gods Word says He will!

The second presence of Jesus Christ is an invisible presence. So right now, Jesus is ruling as king in the midst of his enemies. Most people when it comes to Jesus Christ second presence think they will literally see him, but that's not what the scriptures show us. Just before Jesus was sacrificed he told his Apostles and disciples that the world wouldn't see him any more. Jesus said his Apostles and disciples would see him. After Jesus was resurrected the only people who saw Jesus were his apostles and disciples, no unbeliever saw him. So when it comes to Jesus Christ second presence the world in general will not even know they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. If you remember in the scriptures when Jesus was ascending into heaven there were two angels there that told the disciples that Jesus would come back in the same manner he left. Well Jesus ascended into heaven without public display only his apostles and disciples were aware of Jesus ascending into heaven. The world in general was not even aware it happened, only Jesus apostles were aware. Only true Christians will be aware they are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. The world in general won't believe we're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ and true Christians will be warning the people that we are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ but the people will scoff and disbelieve what they're saying just as the people of Noah's day scoffed at and disbelieved Noah.

I know that the JW's believed at one time that the second presence of Jesus Christ began in 1874. I know the mistakes they made. I don't expect imperfect people to be infallible and never make mistakes

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The death and resurrection in those chapters are about the soul leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. This flesh is temporal, God's body is permanent. Adam's flesh is of the earth, earthly. God's physical body is from above, heavenly. That is all physical death consists of; the soul leaving one body for a totally different body.

The rapture can be seen as the soul violently being taken out of Adam's dead flesh, or it can be seen as a snatching away, or a glorious event, ie rapture. That has happened every time a redeemed human has physically died for the last 1992 years. Some have left violently, some suddenly, and some it was wonderful. But none of those alive could precede those who have gone before. And all will die to Adam's flesh and blood. Call it a change or death and resurrection, they are the same thing. The term rapture today is the definition of those alive at the Second Coming who will all experience at the same time, this phenomenon.

I disagree because the scriptures don't say we have a soul but instead say we are souls.

 

[ewq1938]

The second presence of Jesus Christ is an invisible presence. So right now, Jesus is ruling as king in the midst of his enemies.

Then the enemies are ignoring his ruling because they are currently lawless and not obeying God.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree because the scriptures don't say we have a soul but instead say we are souls.

It says both.

Soul has three definitions.

1: the word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.

2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.

3: the word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

 

[Marty fox]

That is because they were Hebrews from all over the earth who sent a delegation to Jerusalem once a year at the Passover, to commemorate leaving Egypt.

That was the last year, because there was no temple to come to after 70AD.

These people from all over would have no use for any warnings Jesus gave 40 years prior. They were not Christians. They were the descendants of all the tribes scattered across the earth. Or descendants of converts to the Hebrew OT economy. Remember there was a curse on any nation that did not go up yearly to Jerusalem? I am pretty sure those who studied OT Scriptures were well aware of that point.

The warning was to the Christians they knew that it would happen and left but most the people they warned remained

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Then the enemies are ignoring his ruling because they are currently lawless and not obeying God.

Did you not understand what it means when Jesus is ruling as king in the midst of his enemies. When Jesus began ruling as king, Jesus doesn't immediately destroy this wicked world we're living in. During the days of Noah God was present with Noah while Noah was building the ark but nobody ever saw God and that wicked world continued on until the ark was finished and all the animals Noah was to take with him were inside. When it was finished, then the flood began. Today the work of the preaching of the kingdom is going on, but when the preaching of the kingdom has been preached throughout all the nation to God's satisfaction, then Armageddon will begin.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It says both.

Soul has three definitions.

1: the word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.

2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.

3: the word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

I disagree, people have been trying to teach the false teaching that man has a immortal soul, but nowhere in the scriptures does it say when God created man God created mankind with immortality. Mankind is mortal not immortal. Man isn't superior to the animals in regard to death. When animals die they go back to the dust they we're taken, so does mankind. The only difference between animals and mankind in regard to death is that God has said that those of mankind God has judged worthy of a resurrection will live again at the scheduled time of the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.

 

[Timtofly]

Well in the New Jerusalem, there is a paradise, the garden of God, but we go to the new Jerusalem which contains paradise!

So the thief on the Cross went to the New Jerusalem?

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree because the scriptures don't say we have a soul but instead say we are souls.

We are a soul that has a body. I never said we are the body that has a soul. That is probably why many here disagree with me. But Paul taught the soul has 2 totally different bodies. Adam's flesh and blood. Then the permanent incorruptible physical body from God that lives in Paradise. This body will be left behind and return to dust. The soul meets in the air in a new body, that is why it is a death and a resurrection at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

The warning was to the Christians they knew that it would happen and left but most the people they warned remained

According to who, modern day scholars like Preterist? Or Josephus?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

We are a soul that has a body. I never said we are the body that has a soul. That is probably why many here disagree with me. But Paul taught the soul has 2 totally different bodies. Adam's flesh and blood. Then the permanent incorruptible physical body from God that lives in Paradise. This body will be left behind and return to dust. The soul meets in the air in a new body, that is why it is a death and a resurrection at the Second Coming.

We are not souls with a body. We are souls. Saying we are souls with a body is different from the statement, we are souls. Our flesh and blood bodies that breathe oxygen and eats food and drinks water is a soul. It isn't a soul with a body.
You are in error about what Paul wrote about. Paul didn't teach that the soul has two different bodies. Those who will be in heaven with Jesus when they die will be resurrected with a different body. They will not be a soul but an immortal incorruptible spirit being. So saying Paul was saying the soul has two different bodies is not what he said. He was saying those who will be in heaven with Jesus when resurrected will be changed , meaning they will not be souls but changed to immortal incorruptible spirit beings. So Paul wasn't saying the soul has two bodies.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

then explain to me , why you believe after the dead are raised, those that are not dead (alive) and remain (on earth) are caught up. Please explain how that is part of the resurrection.

As I said Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44 tells us that those who will be in heaven with Jesus Christ must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return because they're already living during the time of Jesus second presence. So unlike those who slept in death for thousands of years before the second presence of Jesus Christ began these who who are righteous and still living on earth during Jesus second presence will at the moment of their death are changed at the twinkling of an eye and instantly “caught up,” to be with the Lord. 1Corinthians 15:51,52; Revelations 14:13.[/QUOTE]

Now you are being disingenuous! Gods Word clearly syas that those that remain are alive and not just died! Nothing in the text says the second group dies! Just the opposite.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The second presence of Jesus Christ is an invisible presence. So right now, Jesus is ruling as king in the midst of his enemies. Most people when it comes to Jesus Christ second presence think they will literally see him, but that's not what the scriptures show us. Just before Jesus was sacrificed he told his Apostles and disciples that the world wouldn't see him any more. Jesus said his Apostles and disciples would see him. After Jesus was resurrected the only people who saw Jesus were his apostles and disciples, no unbeliever saw him. So when it comes to Jesus Christ second presence the world in general will not even know they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. If you remember in the scriptures when Jesus was ascending into heaven there were two angels there that told the disciples that Jesus would come back in the same manner he left. Well Jesus ascended into heaven without public display only his apostles and disciples were aware of Jesus ascending into heaven. The world in general was not even aware it happened, only Jesus apostles were aware. Only true Christians will be aware they are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. The world in general won't believe we're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ and true Christians will be warning the people that we are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ but the people will scoff and disbelieve what they're saying just as the people of Noah's day scoffed at and disbelieved Noah.

I know that the JW's believed at one time that the second presence of Jesus Christ began in 1874. I know the mistakes they made. I don't expect imperfect people to be infallible and never make mistakes

Fieldsa of cow Dung!

Jesus left visibly and will return visibly! Teh Scriptures declare so! EVERY (meaning all) EYE (optomai) visible sight will see . It does not mean understanding. Teh JW's are wrong!

So you claim to be one of his disciples-- have you seen Him?

Do you really think the king of kings would allow His kingdom to live in evil like this for 108 years now?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So the thief on the Cross went to the New Jerusalem?

No. He went to Abrahams Bosom/ Paradise! Jesus had not poured out His blood on the heavenly mercy seat and had not ascended yet. so the righteous dead still went to Abraham Bosom/Paradise which is now closed and the first compartment of hell.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

As I said Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44 tells us that those who will be in heaven with Jesus Christ must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return because they're already living during the time of Jesus second presence. So unlike those who slept in death for thousands of years before the second presence of Jesus Christ began these who who are righteous and still living on earth during Jesus second presence will at the moment of their death are changed at the twinkling of an eye and instantly “caught up,” to be with the Lord. 1Corinthians 15:51,52; Revelations 14:13.

Now you are being disingenuous! Gods Word clearly syas that those that remain are alive and not just died! Nothing in the text says the second group dies! Just the opposite.[/QUOTE]

You want to continue to take the scriptures out of context to prove to yourself what you believe go ahead, but I'm not going to take what Paul said concerning the resurrection out of that context no matter what you have to say about me.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Fieldsa of cow Dung!

Jesus left visibly and will return visibly! Teh Scriptures declare so! EVERY (meaning all) EYE (optomai) visible sight will see . It does not mean understanding. Teh JW's are wrong!

So you claim to be one of his disciples-- have you seen Him?

Do you really think the king of kings would allow His kingdom to live in evil like this for 108 years now?

Only believers were aware Jesus ascended into heaven. The whole nation of Israel wasn't aware that Jesus ascended into heaven much less the whole world. The scriptures say that Jesus would come back in the manner he left. So that's what I'm going to believe. Plus Jesus said the world wouldn't see him again and true to what Jesus said after his resurrection no unbeliever saw him only his apostles and disciples saw him. So for anybody that says every eye will literally see Jesus at his second presence we have to remember that isn't the manner Jesus left. The whole world didn't literally see Jesus ascend to heaven. The whole nation of Israel didn't see Jesus ascend to heaven as I said only believers were aware this happened. Plus the scriptures in revelation that talk about ever eye seeing him isn't talking about literal eyes. We know that because those scriptures also say the eyes of those who pierced Jesus who were roman soldier. Those roman soldiers are dead they're not going to literally see Jesus or anyone else for that matter during Jesus second presence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now you are being disingenuous! Gods Word clearly syas that those that remain are alive and not just died! Nothing in the text says the second group dies! Just the opposite.

You want to continue to take the scriptures out of context to prove to yourself what you believe go ahead, but I'm not going to take what Paul said concerning the resurrection out of that context no matter what you have to say about me.[/QUOTE]


It is sad. You wither see it and refuse ot accpet it or do not see it which is far more worrisome for you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Only believers were aware Jesus ascended into heaven. The whole nation of Israel wasn't aware that Jesus ascended into heaven much less the whole world. The scriptures say that Jesus would come back in the manner he left. So that's what I'm going to believe. Plus Jesus said the world wouldn't see him again and true to what Jesus said after his resurrection no unbeliever saw him only his apostles and disciples saw him. So for anybody that says every eye will literally see Jesus at his second presence we have to remember that isn't the manner Jesus left. The whole world didn't literally see Jesus ascend to heaven. The whole nation of Israel didn't see Jesus ascend to heaven as I said only believers were aware this happened. Plus the scriptures in revelation that talk about ever eye seeing him isn't talking about literal eyes. We know that because those scriptures also say the eyes of those who pierced Jesus who were roman soldier. Those roman soldiers are dead they're not going to literally see Jesus or anyone else for that matter during Jesus second presence.

but that does not mean that is the way He returns.

manner is not defined as to who was there! You should know that at your age!

The bible clearly shows the watchtower lie you vomit out here:

Revelation 1:7
King James Version

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


All the nations didn't cry in 1914 because of Jesus! EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM

Once again the Watchtower has lied to you!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It says both.

Soul has three definitions.

1: the word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.

2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.

3: the word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

Humans are souls they don't have souls. When you say, "human beings have a soul" you're in error. When the scriptures say we are souls it means human beings who breathes oxygen, eats food and drinks water is a soul it isn't talking about the human being that breathe oxygen,eats food and drinks water as having a soul, he/she is a soul.
The spirit that's in humans is the same spirit that's in animals. The spirit isn't the etheric body of an individual having with all his/her characteristics. According to the scriptures the spirit is God's invisible active force that causes life or makes alive.
YHWH God is the source of the life-imparting spirit or invisible life-giving active force. So when at death the corpse returns to the dust it came from and the spirit or active force that animated that human body returns to God, it quits operating in that body. So the only one who can make that person who has died alive again, is God who is the source of all life.