What and when is the rapture part two?

[Timtofly]

Wrong!

2 Corinthians 12
King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Those little tiny words make all the difference!

Paul was caught up TO the 3rd heaven, and when he was caught up TO the third heaven, he was caught up INTO Paradise.

If historical scholarship is accurate, the paradise in heaven is the very garden Adam and Eve were kicked out of and the chrubim guarded until teh flood!

Why do I say that?

Revelation 22
King James Version

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Where was the tree of life after the six days of creation? In paradise we call Eden! So paradise (Eden) if located within the thrid heaven.

whjat happened to Abrahams Bosom/Paradise of OT times? I don't know. It was emptied. The bible doesn't say what happened to it, so I won't say so dogmatically as well.

Is that not what I said?

You are as wrong as me, because what you posted is what I said, and you said I was wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course they are. What are you basing that on? Have you never read this passage:

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

OT saints were brought into the body of Christ by the blood of Christ just as we all are. As Paul said, "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ". You are trying to make a division among the people of God which is shameful. Christ brought all believers, Jew and Gentile, male and female, OT and NT saint, etc. together as one! Moses, Noah, David, Ruth, Esther, Abraham, Isaiah and the rest are all our brothers and sisters in Christ in the one body of Christ.

And you both deny they are physically enjoying Paradise since the Cross. Christ the firstfruits. The OT entered Paradise as the firstfruits of the church currently in Paradise. To bad the author of Hebrews never used the word Paradise. The only way some of you would accept the truth. Oh well. What you all believe does not define reality, thank God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course they are. What are you basing that on? Have you never read this passage:

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

OT saints were brought into the body of Christ by the blood of Christ just as we all are. As Paul said, "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ". You are trying to make a division among the people of God which is shameful. Christ brought all believers, Jew and Gentile, male and female, OT and NT saint, etc. together as one! Moses, Noah, David, Ruth, Esther, Abraham, Isaiah and the rest are all our brothers and sisters in Christ in the one body of Christ.

The bible makes a distinction. We must as well. This distinction holds for place in the millenial kingdom. Once eternity starts we know nothing of what will take place.

Everyone is saved by the blood of Christ starting with Adam. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

But that does not make everyone part of the body of Christ. Paul made it clear in Corinthians, one can only be part of teh body by Spirit Baptism, and that did not happen until Pentecost.

Even REv. 19 shows a crowd in heaven distinct from the bride of Christ that are not angels.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This is a crowd that is not part of the bride! The language makes that absolutely clear!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is that not what I said?

You are as wrong as me, because what you posted is what I said, and you said I was wrong.

No for you say that paradise is heaven and I say paradise is in heaven but not all of heaven.

also Abrahams Bosom/Paradise is a different place where the OT righteous souls went when they died. It is not the edenic paradise where the tree of life was while on earth.

 

[ewq1938]

No for you say that paradise is heaven and I say paradise is in heaven but not all of heaven.

also Abrahams Bosom/Paradise is a different place where the OT righteous souls went when they died.

It's not a different place. It is another name for heaven.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Adam was made dead flesh, because of his disobedience. Jesus was the Atonement in obedience. That is all Paul was declaring in 1 Corinthians 15:42-51. You are taking one verse out of context and defining the entire creation. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture, not base an entire point from one verse.

Jesus was God. You don't think God had to wait over 40 days but was stuck on earth, do you? The thief was in Paradise the instant his soul left one body and took up residence in the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Do you think Paradise means sand dunes for hundreds of square miles with nothing to eat? Someone pointed out that even angels eat manna. Do they need to?

Jesus was not dead for 3 days. The physical body lay in the tomb for that period of time, and then could not even be found. It was gone before the stone was rolled away. The point being the Jews had to think the body was in the tomb. Jesus could have just as easily gotten off the Cross and walked away that day. Remember, Jesus told them He would be in the grave for 3 days. He did not tell them He would jump off of the Cross. The Hebrews had some issue about a soul not being dead until after 3 days. That is why Jesus waited 4 days after Lazarus was buried. Does no one here see that point? Some declare one cannot even be the body of Christ until over 40 days after death or some ceremonial cultural thing. Being in Christ does not require some human ritual. But God does work with the culture in terms of the culture of that day and time God is working.

If the means of the Roman's death sentence was the electric chair in the first century we would be talking about a chair and not a Cross. People would have chairs hanging around their necks instead of crosses.

Not sure why you seem to separate creation so drastically? Paradise is the same physical makeup of life on earth. It is just physical life in heaven. Do you think humans are going to turn into stars/angels? Jesus says we will only be like the angels in one aspect: No procreation. Why are you adding way more to creation than God's Word already gives us? We certainly don't become planets. Do you think that is what Paul meant? Why would one human soul become an entire planet?

"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

Do you think Paul was saying we literally become planets? Paul was using comparisons, not stating what we will become.

You all really don't get it. Adam used to be this totally different spirit being you think we will all be some day. Adam was not a prototype, then evolved into current us, and will soon evolve into a totally different spiritual entity. No! Definitely not.

Adam was a perfect soul, body, and spirit without sin. Adam disobeyed placing all his descendants into death. Jesus came to restore humanity back to the Adam God created on day 6. Those currently in Paradise since the Cross have been physically restored. At the Second Coming all the redeemed will be spiritually restored. That is the spiritual restoration, not a spiritual body. The body has always been physical. The spirit has always been spiritual. The soul has been in a dead corruptible body. The spirit has been separated from us and has been with God. At the Second Coming the spirit will be re-united to the soul and body. We are the soul. We put on a physical body, and the physical body puts on a spirit.

While the Bible we have comes from Greek and Latin influences of the Greeks and Romans, it is not Greek and Roman mythology. It was written in such a way not to be used as mythology. But it certainly was understood more by them than some today. Most today want to redefine creation itself and how it works. You all have gone overboard in the opposite direction of ancient teachings, and are influenced by Satan's current science. You cannot even see how heaven and earth works, because it is simple and not as complicated as you all have been led to accept.

It's your choice to deny Jesus was dead for three days, but I'm not going to deny that.

1 Corinthians 15:42-51 is showing that mankind, who are human beings, have corruptible bodies. The first man Adam God created without sin and without spot or blemish but his body was a corruptible body. God created Adam a living soul, just as Genesis 2:7 says, Adam wasn't created as a dead soul. So just as Adam is a living soul so are we, his offspring. Now God has chosen some of Adam's offspring to be Kings and Priests and Judges who will be in heaven with Jesus and just as Jesus, sacrificed his mortal corruptible body they will sacrifice their mortal corruptible bodies and be resurrected with a spirit body that will be immortal and incorruptible.
Human beings are souls they are flesh and blood creatures who breathe oxygen eat food and drink water and are mortal and corruptible and can't live in that heavenly Messianic kingdom, in this state. Human beings don't and can't live in heaven. Those human beings that God chooses to be with his Only Begotten Son in heaven will have the same kind of body Jesus has, which isn't a mortal corruptible human body but a immortal incorruptible spirit body.

You said something about the Hebrews having some issues about the soul not being dead until after 3 days and that's the reason Jesus waited 4 days to resurrect Lazarus. Now I know that the scriptures say that Jesus resurrected Lazarus 4 days after his death, but you are going to have to show me where in the scriptures that it is says that the reason Jesus waited 4 days after Lazarus died to resurrect him was because of some issue the Hebrews had about the soul not being dead until after 3 days because I haven't read that anywhere in scripture.

The scriptures show that Eden was a paradise garden on earth not in heaven, that is where God put the first human couple. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they lost that paradise Garden for themselves and their offspring. If Adam and Eve had been obedient to God instead of disobedient, then when Adam and Eve multiplied and filled the earth in that sinless state that God had created them in, then this whole planet would be a paradise earth, filled with righteous sinless human beings. But they lost paradise and Adam and Eve's offspring are born in sin. However the scriptures show us in Isaiah 55:11 that whatever God's purpose is or whatever his will is, that will happen, it will not be stopped. So this planet we're living on will one day be paradise earth with sinless righteous human beings living on it for eternity. Paradise will be on earth not in heaven.

It looks like you said that I was believing or teaching that I was not when you said and I quote, "Adam used to be this totally different spirit being you think we will all be someday" but this isn't something I've even suggested nor believed. I believe Adam was created a mortal corruptible sinless living soul when God created him. God created the first Adam mortal and corruptible. So the first Adam was created a living soul who God created mortal and corruptible.
Because Adam sinned we his offspring are born in sin. Some human beings, Adams offspring God has chosen to be of that heavenly calling and they will be the ones who will be the kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that Messianic kingdom. There will also be those of Adams offspring that God will judge as righteous human beings who will be the subjects of that heavenly Messianic kingdom and will live on earth as mortal corruptible human beings and one day will be without sin. As I said one day this planet we're living on will be a paradise earth with righteous sinless people living on it for eternity.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Historically those in Paradise are fully restored, soul, body, and spirit.

Those on earth are only soul and body.

That is the only difference. When the New Jerusalem comes to earth, that may change. Do you think those living inside New Jerusalem will want to exchange their city home with those living out in the country, in a fair trade of residence? Or just want to maintain two dwelling places, a "winter" and "summer" home? Think about who lives where, not who does what. If God has done all the decision making, what difference does a human make in doing anything? Obedience to God is all we have. What we do in obedience is His will, not what we come up with our own understandings.

It's not true you saying that those on earth are only soul and body. All humans are souls and have spirit, you just have to understand that the spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals. This is the way God created Adam, so that's how all humans are who are Adams offspring. We all are souls with spirit.
So all humans even after Adam disobeyed God have always been souls. The human body that breathes oxygen eat food and drinks water are souls and they have spirit even after the disobedience of Adam we humans have bodies that are souls and we all have spirit.

The new Jerusalem is in heaven and will remain there, it will not be on planet earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's not a different place. It is another name for heaven.

Well we will all find out when we get there won't we. Based on teh grammar of the Scripture, paradise is within heaven, that is why I say it is part of heaven but not all of heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Well we will all find out when we get there won't we. Based on teh grammar of the Scripture, paradise is within heaven, that is why I say it is part of heaven but not all of heaven.

What grammar?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What grammar?

In 1 Cor. Paul uses to words that pose as a distinction.

2 Corinthians 12
King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


V. 2 Paul is caught UP to the third heaven.

V.4 is distinctive for he was caught INTO paradise.

bottom line, grammatically Paus was saying that he was caught up to heaven and when he was caught up, in heaven he was caught up into, which shows that within heaven he went to paradise.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here an unnamed man is caught up to paradise however we are told two verses earlier that this is the third heaven:


2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


This means that paradise is the same as the third heaven, which is the Heaven we know of where God exists.

In 1 Cor. Paul uses to words that pose as a distinction.

2 Corinthians 12
King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


V. 2 Paul is caught UP to the third heaven.

V.4 is distinctive for he was caught INTO paradise.

bottom line, grammatically Paus was saying that he was caught up to heaven and when he was caught up, in heaven he was caught up into, which shows that within heaven he went to paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

No for you say that paradise is heaven and I say paradise is in heaven but not all of heaven.

also Abrahams Bosom/Paradise is a different place where the OT righteous souls went when they died. It is not the edenic paradise where the tree of life was while on earth.

I said Paul said it was the third heaven.

Most people never use the word Paradise. Do you assume they are meaning heaven or Paradise? If you assume they mean Paradise, but just use the word heaven, why are you accusing me? Should it be the church's doctrinal statement at fault? When pointing out we go to heaven, do you correct every one you meet, and tell them Paradise is not heaven, but in heaven? Do they look at you funny or with a blank stare, trying to figure out why they offended you?

I never said Abraham's bosom was Paradise. You said Paradise was Abraham's bosom. Jesus did not go to Abraham's bosom with the thief on the Cross. That is your erroneous assumption.



The thief on the Cross went to Paradise in the presence of God, Paul's third heaven. The third heaven being a part of heaven, not all of heaven. But then you need to explain how at the Second Coming the angels will gather those redeemed like the thief on the cross from the 4 corners of heaven, because the word is used interchangeably with Paradise.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here an unnamed man is caught up to paradise however we are told two verses earlier that this is the third heaven:


2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


This means that paradise is the same as the third heaven, which is the Heaven we know of where God exists.

Its not a big deal. If you wish to think that, that is fine, I will go with the grammar construction and believe that paradise is in the third heaven.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I said Paul said it was the third heaven.

Most people never use the word Paradise. Do you assume they are meaning heaven or Paradise? If you assume they mean Paradise, but just use the word heaven, why are you accusing me? Should it be the church's doctrinal statement at fault? When pointing out we go to heaven, do you correct every one you meet, and tell them Paradise is not heaven, but in heaven? Do they look at you funny or with a blank stare, trying to figure out why they offended you?

I never said Abraham's bosom was Paradise. You said Paradise was Abraham's bosom. Jesus did not go to Abraham's bosom with the thief on the Cross. That is your erroneous assumption.



The thief on the Cross went to Paradise in the presence of God, Paul's third heaven. The third heaven being a part of heaven, not all of heaven. But then you need to explain how at the Second Coming the angels will gather those redeemed like the thief on the cross from the 4 corners of heaven, because the word is used interchangeably with Paradise.

No the third heaven is not paradise. Paradise is found within the third heaven, which in Revelation is called the New Jerusalem.

The thief went to hell (the grave) and went to the righteous side which jews called by these names: Abrahams Bosom/paradise.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died, he went to the underworld- paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

I believe Adam was created a mortal corruptible sinless living soul when God created him. God created the first Adam mortal and corruptible. So the first Adam was created a living soul who God created mortal and corruptible.
Because Adam sinned we his offspring are born in sin. Some human beings, Adams offspring God has chosen to be of that heavenly calling and they will be the ones who will be the kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that Messianic kingdom.

This is where you are wrong.

God created Adam with a permanent incorruptible physical body. When Adam ate the fruit, he immediately died, and became temporal corruptible dead flesh and blood.

Adam passed this dead flesh and blood on to all his descendants. After a redeemed soul leaves this flesh and blood, they get Adam's original permanent incorruptible physical body back.

Adam did physically die that day, and we have been physically dead since then.

The fruit did not physically kill Adam like it was poison. The act of disobedience did exactly what God said it would, it physically killed Adam. But not only did the body change, the spirit of man was removed, and we became spiritually dead as well. The spirit itself is not dead. It is in the presence of God. But many human spirits have been reprobated and changed into demons. This is Satan's current army of devils.

 

[Timtofly]

No the third heaven is not paradise. Paradise is found within the third heaven, which in Revelation is called the New Jerusalem.

The thief went to hell (the grave) and went to the righteous side which jews called by these names: Abrahams Bosom/paradise.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died, he went to the underworld- paradise.

There was no Abraham's bosom when the thief died. It was empty. You have no concept of time do you? Abraham's bosom emptied when Jesus said, "It is finished". Matthew 27:50-52

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"

Two things immediately happened: the temple veil rent in half immediately rendering the Holy of Holies null and void. Abraham's bosom was emptied rendering the grave of the OT null and void. The thief on the Cross could not enter Abraham's bosom any more than God would enter the Holy of Holies. You condemn the thief to a death that no longer existed. How magnanimous of you. Plus you make God out to be a liar, when God clearly told the thief he would be with God in Paradise that day, not some future resurrection thousands of years from then.

As pointed out, the thief did not hop off the cross and join those bodies walking around Jerusalem for 3 days with all those other bodies. The thief did not join those from Abraham's bosom. The thief died hours after Abraham's bosom had become defunct. The thief died hours after the temple veil rendered the temple defunct. It is a matter of the time of the thief's death, not your doctrinal position based on your metrics.


John 19:31-34

"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

The two thieves were not dead yet, so they broke their legs to hasten their deaths. It was hours later, and the Jews did not want bodies hanging out for days near Jerusalem. It was the Passover Sabbath on Thursday of this month of Passover observance. Jesus did not die at the same time as the thief, and could not take the thief to Abraham's bosom. The thief was not dead yet. Jesus was out of Abraham's bosom just as quick as those bodies walking out of their graves.

Why would you think this process happened over days? Do you think it will take days at the Second Coming to process all those bodies into the air by heavens security personal? Why do you think the event at the Cross would take 3 days to process all those bodies into Paradise in the third heaven in the heaven in the firmament?

 

[ewq1938]

No the third heaven is not paradise. Paradise is found within the third heaven, which in Revelation is called the New Jerusalem.

The thief went to hell (the grave) and went to the righteous side which jews called by these names: Abrahams Bosom/paradise.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died, he went to the underworld- paradise.

Heaven and paradise is the same place. Jesus went to Hades, not to heaven/paradise.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

This is where you are wrong.

God created Adam with a permanent incorruptible physical body. When Adam ate the fruit, he immediately died, and became temporal corruptible dead flesh and blood.

Adam passed this dead flesh and blood on to all his descendants. After a redeemed soul leaves this flesh and blood, they get Adam's original permanent incorruptible physical body back.

Adam did physically die that day, and we have been physically dead since then.

The fruit did not physically kill Adam like it was poison. The act of disobedience did exactly what God said it would, it physically killed Adam. But not only did the body change, the spirit of man was removed, and we became spiritually dead as well. The spirit itself is not dead. It is in the presence of God. But many human spirits have been reprobated and changed into demons. This is Satan's current army of devils.

No, Adam wasn't created incorruptible. You will find no scripture that says that. If he had been created with an incorruptible body that would mean his body is not subject to ruin, not subject to decay, not subject to spoil, not subject to being brought to a lower or inferior state, not subject to death. So no Adam wasn't created with a incorruptible body.

 

[n2thelight]

IS For? Gathering together Christ’s Church.
WHEN? Before Wrath from Heaven, upon the Earth, ie Last Tribulation.

What happens on earth while you all are in Heaven ?
What specifically is the wrath of God ?

 

[n2thelight]

It does say we have a soul and so does God!

Jesus has a soul:

Mat_26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Does the Father have a soul? Yes:

Isa_1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

We don't have a soul , we are a soul .
Did Christ have a body before being born of woman ?