Another Premillennial absurdity

[Randy Kluth]

Yah-de-dah-de-dah. Stop your boasting, false charges and avoidance, and address the issue at hand. Since when has age been anything to do with knowing truth? Jesus said to the religious that we should become as a little child.

Why do you constantly explain away the fuller revelation of the New Testament with your mistaken opinion of the Old Testament?

I'm just trying to get along and converse on the basis of mutual respect for the respective opinions we hold to. I have zero interest in boasting. I'd just like to get along and maintain a horizontal relationship, and not a vertical relationship. God is Lord--not us. We should let others have their opinions, right or wrong, and let the Holy Spirit convict, rather than shame those we disagree with.

You are inventing 3 peoples in life when the Bible only recognized 2. This is a major flaw in your theology and highlights the danger of swallowing man-made doctrine. Premil forces you to promote one false teaching with more false teaching. That is what Premillennialists must do with the faulty hand they have been dealt.

Your 3 groups are supposedly: (1) “the Christians,” (2) “those who have made the wrong choices in the present age” and (3) “those who have not yet made up their minds.”

Who writes your script for you? What do you mean by describing your 2nd group as “those who have made the wrong choices in the present age”? Where do you get that? They have names. Your fluffy liberal definition is extra-biblical. That is what you do. You try to invent your human terms to support your error and replace God’s terms. Why not stick to Scripture? They are “wicked.” They are “ungodly.” They are “unjust.” They are “children of the devil.”

Your 3rd group may exist in your head but not in God’s. They do not exist in reality. Who are “Those who have not yet made up their minds”? Where do you get this in Scripture? Nowhere. It is complete and utter nonsense from you.

Not to decide is to decide. These are also “wicked,” “ungodly,” “unjust” and “children of the devil.”

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If a man loves Christ He is saved. He will escape the wrath of God, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

Uninterested

 

[Randy Kluth]

WPM is spot on, you ramble on in novel sized responses without scripture to support your claims, because there isn't any

Uninterested

 

[WPM]

I'm just trying to get along and converse on the basis of mutual respect for the respective opinions we hold to. I have zero interest in boasting. I'd just like to get along and maintain a horizontal relationship, and not a vertical relationship. God is Lord--not us. We should let others have their opinions, right or wrong, and let the Holy Spirit convict, rather than shame those we disagree with.

Uninterested

Questioning the salvation of Amils. Calling Amils a bunch of "thugs" and 'Idoloters' is not respect but blatant hostility. You are obviously blind to how you function.

When we try to discuss the issues you present, like the last post, you respond with: "uninterested." That sums up the pattern. It testifies to how bereft Premil is of compelling arguments.

 

[Truth7t7]

Uninterested

No Surprise, Waiting For The Next Novel Sized Ramble Without Scriptural Support, Your "National Salvation For Israel" Takes The Cake, What's Next?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

Questioning the salvation of Amils. Calling Amils a bunch of "thugs" and 'Idoloters' is not respect but blatant hostility. You are obviously blind to how you function.

When we try to discuss the issues you present, like the last post, you respond with: "uninterested." That sums up the pattern. It testifies to how bereft Premil is of compelling arguments.

1 Cor 13.If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing... 5 It keeps no record of wrongs.

Mat 18.6 If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Rom 14.19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

2 Thes 3.11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Titus 3.10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

Brother, you are disruptive, and record anything you find offensive to you, even if someone calls you out for being divisive and disruptive. You don't have love, and you don't edify, when someone rejects your positions. You insult those who have a different position than you. I'm uninterested in this manner of debate--it is too personal, too insulting, and invites an angry response.

Recently, you got me banned from a thread by using this insulting, provocative tactic. You repeated your "25 proofs for Amill" over and over again, and you bring it over on this forum, as well, continuing the same kind of hostility you find satisfying. Others who agree with you find you to be a saint. I don't, not just because I disagree with you but because your manner of debating is hostile, insulting, and carnal.

Sorry, but I'm *uninterested* in this kind of debate. Stick to the issues, avoid the personal paraphernalia, and learn what God's love really is and how it operates as a servant. And then we'll be fine.

I can tell you right now you won't respond in love, because I've tried to appeal to the "Christian" in you for a very long time. It only invites more contempt, because you are not submissive to authority, whether from God or from a brother. You're lawless, except when it comes to what you want. You are your own "lord."

 

[WPM]

1 Cor 13.If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing... 5 It keeps no record of wrongs.

Mat 18.6 If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Rom 14.19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

2 Thes 3.11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Titus 3.10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

Brother, you are disruptive, and record anything you find offensive to you, even if someone calls you out for being divisive and disruptive. You don't have love, and you don't edify, when someone rejects your positions. You insult those who have a different position than you. I'm uninterested in this manner of debate--it is too personal, too insulting, and invites an angry response.

Recently, you got me banned from a thread by using this insulting, provocative tactic. You repeated your "25 proofs for Amill" over and over again, and you bring it over on this forum, as well, continuing the same kind of hostility you find satisfying. Others who agree with you find you to be a saint. I don't, not just because I disagree with you but because your manner of debating is hostile, insulting, and carnal.

Sorry, but I'm *uninterested* in this kind of debate. Stick to the issues, avoid the personal paraphernalia, and learn what God's love really is and how it operates as a servant. And then we'll be fine.

I can tell you right now you won't respond in love, because I've tried to appeal to the "Christian" in you for a very long time. It only invites more contempt, because you are not submissive to authority, whether from God or from a brother. You're lawless, except when it comes to what you want. You are your own "lord."

Please do not lecture any of us about love, until you change. Your posts are hostile to me and Amils. Because we disagree with you, you attack us with bitterness and venom. Do not package that up as love. It is not! You are the last Premil we are going to take lectures from about love. When your duplicity is called out, you do not like it. You love to wallow in ad hominem. But i do not.

Ad hominem to you is when i call out your avoidance. Ad hominem to the rest of us is when you question our salvation and call us idolaters and thugs.

What is more: you refuse to apologize for your toxicity and offence.

When i try as above to call out issues of error, you run, as above.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please do not lecture any of us about love, until you change. Your posts are hostile to me and Amils. Because we disagree with you, you attack us with bitterness and venom. Do not package that up as love. It is not! You are the last Premil we are going to take lectures from about love. When your duplicity is called out, you do not like it. You love to wallow in ad hominem. But i do not.

Ad hominem to you is when i call out your avoidance. Ad hominem to the rest of us is when you question our salvation and call us idolaters and thugs.

What is more: you refuse to apologize for your toxicity and offence.

When i try as above to call out issues of error, you run, as above.

You do not have the love you claim to preach. Not interested in your hostile comebacks. If you can't submit to the Scriptural requirements to love your brother, you are bound by internal conflicts.

Incidentally, you should not be giving me orders to "not lecture about love!" It is my job, as a Christian, to declare the Gospel of Christ's love. If you don't like that, something is very wrong with you!

 

[Randy Kluth]

No Surprise, Waiting For The Next Novel Sized Ramble Without Scriptural Support, Your "National Salvation For Israel" Takes The Cake, What's Next?

Jesus Is The Lord

Amills here are poor examples of how Christians should discuss differences. They band together to justify ungodly attacks on those who don't agree with them. If you want to have "Christian" discussions, try to keep things less "personal?" That is what I'm "uninterested" in--a constant barrage of negativity, insult, and carnality.

I hasten to say I'm not speaking of *all* Amills, who may be here. I only refer to a certain number who "have each other's backs," who piggyback off of each others' statements, and regularly "cheerlead" for the "home team." This shows no originality--just party spirit, which is, in my view, carnal.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amills here are poor examples of how Christians should discuss differences. They band together to justify ungodly attacks on those who don't agree with them. If you want to have "Christian" discussions, try to keep things less "personal?" That is what I'm "uninterested" in--a constant barrage of negativity, insult, and carnality.

I hasten to say I'm not speaking of *all* Amills, who may be here. I only refer to a certain number who "have each other's backs," who piggyback off of each others' statements, and regularly "cheerlead" for the "home team." This shows no originality--just party spirit, which is, in my view, carnal.

No insults whatsoever, your postings are novel in size without scripture in support, your claims of "National Salvation For Israel" takes the cake

Do you want posters to give hugs and kisses to the false teachings on display

Nothing about exposing false teachings are negative or carnal, just the opposite

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

You do not have the love you claim to preach. Not interested in your hostile comebacks. If you can't submit to the Scriptural requirements to love your brother, you are bound by internal conflicts.

Incidentally, you should not be giving me orders to "not lecture about love!" It is my job, as a Christian, to declare the Gospel of Christ's love. If you don't like that, something is very wrong with you!

If you practiced what you preach, more people might actually receive from you, but you don't. All we get is your vicious ad hominem. You are the most vicious poster here. So, no. I do not receive any of your curses.

Num 23:8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?

Because you have no answer to the Amil arguments you get frustrated and respond with ad hominem. You then throw false charges out at Amils to hurt them. I personally do not know one Amil who takes you serious.

I refuse to engage with you till you repent and say sorry. You love wallowing in the muck. I do not.

 

[WPM]

Amills here are poor examples of how Christians should discuss differences. They band together to justify ungodly attacks on those who don't agree with them. If you want to have "Christian" discussions, try to keep things less "personal?" That is what I'm "uninterested" in--a constant barrage of negativity, insult, and carnality.

I hasten to say I'm not speaking of *all* Amills, who may be here. I only refer to a certain number who "have each other's backs," who piggyback off of each others' statements, and regularly "cheerlead" for the "home team." This shows no originality--just party spirit, which is, in my view, carnal.

I saw this a lot as a Police Officer: the perpetrator will attribute to the victim what pertains to the perpetrator. This is who you are and this is what you do. You do so because you have no answer to the Amil arguments. Every time you get cornered theologically you come out with this venom (which is pretty common).

Here is some of your vicious slander that you refuse to apologize for and repent of. You are being eaten up with hatred. How dare you lecture anyone on this board about love. Walk in it first, and then we might listen. Remember, you are talking about the brethren below!!! Scary!

For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience

Are you even a real Christian?

you're a fake Christian, a backslidden Christian, or some kind of egotistical Christian.

I'm honestly concerned for the state of your soul.

you must be spiritually blind

I'm arguing with someone who has no sense of discernment!

You just seem to be a little more open--angry, paranoid perhaps

How long have you been hood-winking people like this?

Like the carnal person that you are

you've proven yourself to be incorrigible, unteachable, and narcissistic. You seem to be looking for followers, for confirmation that you're right. Why else would you make this an idol?

I lose interest in reading the rest of your trash talk.

It's a work of your own, and not a work of the Lord.

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians

Amills here act like a gang of thugs.

I stand by all of my statements because they're true. And although they're true, that you're a very carnal Christian, who makes me wonder if he isn't in some kind of false Christian cult, I keep trying to reach out in fellowship.

I can't imagine why you think he's a "saint?" He cultivates followers--I know the type, and yes--I have a gift of discernment.

You just seem to lay these things on the shelf when discussing your idol, Amillennialism.

Amil is his idol, put quite simply. Yes, that's my opinion

Why else would you make this an idol?

You can sometimes tell that someone is off track and not aligned with the word of God. Their rage is evidence of that fact. Their obsessive idolization of their doctrines indicate that somewhere along the way they've gotten off track, gotten lost, and now find themselves groping in the dark

You try to create carnal divisions in the church to preserve your idol, Amil?

You just seem to lay these things on the shelf when discussing your idol, Amillennialism.

I just have concerns about the side effects of being an Amil.

you are disruptive,

You don't have love

You're lawless,

You dummy!

This goofball

Posters can judge for themselves whether your language represents agape love. I know what most Amils think.

This is always your default when you cannot address the arguments - ad hominem. You are consumed with hatred towards Amils! You need to turn from this. It is eating you up.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I saw this a lot as a Police Officer: the perpetrator will attribute to the victim what pertains to the perpetrator. This is who you are and this is what you do. You do so because you have no answer to the Amil arguments. Every time you get cornered theologically you come out with this venom (which is pretty common).

Disinterested.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you practiced what you preach, more people might actually receive from you, but you don't. All we get is your vicious ad hominem. You are the most vicious poster here. So, no. I do not receive any of your curses.

I told you. I'm not interested in personal attacks. I'm here to discuss issues.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No insults whatsoever, your postings are novel in size without scripture in support, your claims of "National Salvation For Israel" takes the cake

Do you want posters to give hugs and kisses to the false teachings on display

Nothing about exposing false teachings are negative or carnal, just the opposite

Not interested.

 

[WPM]

I told you. I'm not interested in personal attacks. I'm here to discuss issues.

Really? That has not been your pattern on these forums. Why resort to it every time you are cornered theologically? My last post before you brought the conversation into the muck was totally theological. The post exposed the futility of your position and you resorted to false charges and slander. So i will try again to bring it on topic, if you are truly interested in scriptural issues instead of name-calling and pettiness:

You are inventing 3 peoples in life when the Bible only recognized 2. This is a major flaw in your theology and highlights the danger of swallowing man-made doctrine. Premil forces you to promote one false teaching with more false teaching. That is what Premillennialists must do with the faulty hand they have been dealt.

Your 3 groups are supposedly: (1) “the Christians,” (2) “those who have made the wrong choices in the present age” and (3) “those who have not yet made up their minds.”

Who writes your script for you? What do you mean by describing your 2nd group as “those who have made the wrong choices in the present age”? Where do you get that? They have names. Your fluffy liberal definition is extra-biblical. That is what you do. You try to invent your human terms to support your error and replace God’s terms. Why not stick to Scripture? They are “wicked.” They are “ungodly.” They are “unjust.” They are “children of the devil.”

Your 3rd group may exist in your head but not in God’s. They do not exist in reality. Who are “Those who have not yet made up their minds”? Where do you get this in Scripture? Nowhere. It is complete and utter nonsense from you.

Not to decide is to decide. These are also “wicked,” “ungodly,” “unjust” and “children of the devil.”

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If a man loves Christ He is saved. He will escape the wrath of God, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

 

[Timtofly]

(1) Who are these billions of wicked rebels that overrun your millennium as the sand of the sea and (2) what causes them to wholesale become satanists?

Satan followers, who are deceived into thinking change is better than normal every day life.

Satan is pretty good at pointing out knowledge is better than obedience.

What makes them wicked? Is science wicked? Every single human on earth is wicked. Even Christians are wicked. You don't seem to be over exaggerating that point. You have yet to point out their act of disobedience. Until you can show what they did as being disobedience, these righteous people are not wicked, just for listening to Satan and his brand of knowledge that we call science. We are not wicked by our actions. We are wicked at birth, and our actions point out our wickedness.

You ask where they come from. I point out they have not yet left to come from anywhere. They are consumed by fire before they are allowed to do anything.

Think of it as a reverse test from Abraham being told to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice. Satan is allowed to get as many people willing to go up against the camp of the saints. Before Abraham literally kills Isaac, he is stopped. Before this huge assembly can do anything, they are stopped, but instead of being credited for having faith, they are credited for listening to Satan.

For many Amil, this is not even a literal war, nor even takes place on earth. These are souls in heaven, allowed to be swayed by thoughts from Satan. How can this be on earth, if this camp of the saints did not even start out on earth? For this to even work as an argument, you have to have physically resurrected humans populating the earth for 1,000 years. Otherwise this is just an exercise in the mind, and not literal.

So why not ask where wicked souls without bodies come from in heaven? Otherwise you are going to have to just see this as billions of humans born over the course of a few hundred years, after 800 years of human growth across the earth. It would be like asking where did 8 billion humans come from in the last 200 years.

The humans born in Revelation 20 all come from human procreation. But you are asking how did they get from point a to point b. They listened to Satan, who deceived them. But they never got to their point b. They were consumed by fire from God instead.

That is the point. They put their faith and confidence in Satan, instead of King Jesus.

 

[WPM]

Satan followers, who are deceived into thinking change is better than normal every day life.

Satan is pretty good at pointing out knowledge is better than obedience.

What makes them wicked? Is science wicked? Every single human on earth is wicked. Even Christians are wicked. You don't seem to be over exaggerating that point. You have yet to point out their act of disobedience. Until you can show what they did as being disobedience, these righteous people are not wicked, just for listening to Satan and his brand of knowledge that we call science. We are not wicked by our actions. We are wicked at birth, and our actions point out our wickedness.

You ask where they come from. I point out they have not yet left to come from anywhere. They are consumed by fire before they are allowed to do anything.

Think of it as a reverse test from Abraham being told to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice. Satan is allowed to get as many people willing to go up against the camp of the saints. Before Abraham literally kills Isaac, he is stopped. Before this huge assembly can do anything, they are stopped, but instead of being credited for having faith, they are credited for listening to Satan.

For many Amil, this is not even a literal war, nor even takes place on earth. These are souls in heaven, allowed to be swayed by thoughts from Satan. How can this be on earth, if this camp of the saints did not even start out on earth? For this to even work as an argument, you have to have physically resurrected humans populating the earth for 1,000 years. Otherwise this is just an exercise in the mind, and not literal.

So why not ask where wicked souls without bodies come from in heaven? Otherwise you are going to have to just see this as billions of humans born over the course of a few hundred years, after 800 years of human growth across the earth. It would be like asking where did 8 billion humans come from in the last 200 years.

The humans born in Revelation 20 all come from human procreation. But you are asking how did they get from point a to point b. They listened to Satan, who deceived them. But they never got to their point b. They were consumed by fire from God instead.

That is the point. They put their faith and confidence in Satan, instead of King Jesus.

Instead of inventing your own beliefs, show me where the Bible teaches all this. It seems like it is all out of your imaginations. Please do not talk on behalf of Amils, you seem to struggle with actually knowing what Amils believe. You are obviously not a good listener.

 

[WPM]

You have yet to point out their act of disobedience. Until you can show what they did as being disobedience, these righteous people are not wicked, just for listening to Satan and his brand of knowledge that we call science. We are not wicked by our actions.

What are you talking about? Amils have showed you for years the error of your ways, but you refuse to receive it. They have ably and repeatedly demonstrated how humans that reject Christ and follow Satan are dirty vile stinking sinners. You cannot accept that because it cuts across your false teaching. The problem with you is, you do not even understand what sin is.

Does Gog and Magog (Rev 20) end up on the new earth or the lake of fire for all eternity?

 

[Timtofly]

Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming.

This is not about living until the Second Coming. You have the wrong age here. This is about living on earth until death, and then no more procreation after death. You are still seeing the issue from the Pharisee's point of view.

Please explain how the Pharisees were waiting for the Second Coming. They were waiting for a resurrection. That resurrection they were waiting for happened at the Cross.

That was the end of the OT economy, as well as the resurrection they were promised and looking for. They missed it, and so do Amil in their eschatology.

You all put so much emphasis on the binding of Satan, yet do not even accept the resurrection that also happened and started that next age for all those now living in Paradise in physical bodies, without procreation. I am not agreeing with you that Satan was bound at the Cross. Satan is bound at the Second Coming. I am saying you have the start of the wrong event. You also postpone the wrong event.

Procreation is no longer necessary when those redeemed were resurrected into Paradise. That was the age to come. There will probably be no more procreation after the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth. But you all cannot get this creation correct, so speculation on the next creation is rather pointless. The next reality is not another age. It is a whole new reality.

 

[Timtofly]

Instead of inventing your own beliefs, show me where the Bible teaches all this. It seems like it is all out of your imaginations. Please do not talk on behalf of Amils, you seem to struggle with actually knowing what Amils believe. You are obviously not a good listener.

Please show where Scripture says Revelation 20 happened in the first century. Then you have an excuse to make demands.