Question: Why not believe in Christ's millennial reign on earth?

[robert derrick]

I know what you mean, but what about the 1st time he came? Shouldn't the Jews have followed him when he walked in their midst as the Son of God?

The unbelieving Jews still look only for their Messiah from heaven, which is why they rejected Him as a man.

They will wail when they do see Him returning from heaven.

He came in the flesh once only, and now ill come again only in the air.

Scripture prophecies it, and warns against looking for Him as the returned Christ over here or over there.

We're told that Jesus is coming back just as he left, which infers that he will physically come here and dwell with his people, at least for a period of time.

As he went, so shall He return.

With clouds.

I personally think that he will only come momentarily, before returning to heaven to rule over the earth from there, together with his glorified saints. The New Jerusalem descends from heaven at the end of the Millennium, in my view.

This is a new one for me, and why not? Just like Jesus, the resurrected saints can be in heaven and on earth in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

 

[WPM]

Reigning for a thousand years in heaven?


Except for the promise God made to Abraham, to give him personally the land he walked on this earth.

That promise has not be fulfilled yet.

And the overcoming saints are promised to rule over the nations with Him with a rod of iron.

That hasn't been fulfilled yet either.

Spiritual reigning over our own lives on earth now, and reigning with resurrected bodies over the earth itself, are both true.

I showed you the evidence and you rejected it. This is a Premil trait. They don't let the inspired evidence get in the way of their opinion.

The Lord kept His Word. If you would simply let the Word speak for itself. After Moses death, Joshua was given the command of the Lord to go in and inherit the land.

Joshua 1:1-6 records, “after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, Moses my servant is dead; now therefore ARISE, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.”

The land to be taken was therefore in perfect accord with that promised unto Abraham.

Joshua 11:23 confirms its complete fulfilment, saying, “So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the Lord said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war.”

The land promised unto Moses was exactly the same as that promised unto Abraham. Therefore, Joshua inherited the whole land promised unto Abraham, Isaac and Jacob proving the faithfulness of the promises of God.

Joshua 15:1, 4 confirms the Southern border was taken, saying, "This then was the lot of the tribe of the children of Judah … From thence it passed toward Azmon, and went out unto the river of Egypt; and the goings out of that coast were at the sea: this shall be your south coast.”

Joshua reiterates the gracious fulfilment of this promise, in Joshua 21:43-45, saying, “And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.”

In this passage, Joshua expands, stating that “the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it.” Thus, expressly confirming the fulfilment of the land promise and linking of the same was the same as that promised unto Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Again, it was evidently possessed in full.

Whilst, God provision was an eternal promise for the believing Israel

Joshua 22:4: “And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.”

Shortly before Joshua’s death, recorded in Joshua 23:14-16, God’s servant reminded the people of God’s existing favor upon them and how graciously He had fulfilled ALL His promises unto them, saying, “And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.”

 

[robert derrick]

may i suggest that one contemplates the millenial reign that they might participate in, going on right now?
after all, when doe Christ “come?”
Only Yah knows, right? (bc only Yah knows when you will get it?)

There is the spiritual millennium now for those with Christ, which is still just as fresh, good, and alive as day one.

And there the earthly millennium for those resurrected with Christ, which will be as but a day after a thousand years.

 

[Keraz]

Shortly before Joshua’s death, recorded in Joshua 23:14-16, God’s servant reminded the people of God’s existing favor upon them and how graciously He had fulfilled ALL His promises unto them, saying, “And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.”

The ancient Israelites did not get rid of any of the Canaaite peoples. They conquered them, but failed to clear the Land as God required of them. The consequence of this was how they intermarried and worshipped their gods, resulting in their exile from the holy Land.
Proved by the next Book after Joshua: Judges1:10-36 describes how NONE of the tribes of Israel fulfilled their task.

So God's Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, remains to be fulfilled. But this time the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land Himself. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Then His holy faithful Christian peoples, the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, Galatians 3:26-29, will migrate there and live there in peace and prosperity. John sees them here in Revelation 7:9

 

[robert derrick]

They that are alive on earth are not "they" who pierced him.

They who pierced him will be resurrected to fulfill Zechariah's prophecy.

And they will receive salvation.

And that will include Judas.

Dispensationally speaking.

Nope.

Sorry, but I didn't know you were trying to teach some sort of 2nd chance for salvation, after dying in sin and rebellion.

There will be only the first resurrection of the saints, which will include all the righteous since Abel. And then the rest of the dead will not live again until the great while throne judgement, which will include all the wicked dead of earth.

That is when their deeds will be judged, not when they'll be given another chance to repent.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is the spiritual millennium now for those with Christ, which is still just as fresh, good, and alive as day one.

And there the earthly millennium for those resurrected with Christ, which will be as but a day after a thousand years.

you sound so sure, rd…but ty

 

[covenantee]

Nope.

Sorry, but I didn't know you were trying to teach some sort of 2nd chance for salvation, after dying in sin and rebellion.

There will be only the first resurrection of the saints, which will include all the righteous since Abel. And then the rest of the dead will not live again until the great while throne judgement, which will include all the wicked dead of earth.

That is when their deeds will be judged, not when they'll be given another chance to repent.

Zechariah 12:10 declares that the spirit of grace and supplications will be poured upon "they" who pierced Jesus.

Dispensationalism believes that means Israel's salvation.

Judas was an Israelite.

He pierced Jesus.

So he receives salvation.

 

[ewq1938]

Zechariah 12:10 declares that the spirit of grace and supplications will be poured upon "they" who pierced Jesus.

Dispensationalism believes that means Israel's salvation.

Judas was an Israelite.

He pierced Jesus.

So he receives salvation.

Unbelievers won't be given salvation.


Judas also won't receive salvation. His fate is already given:

1: Judas was a devil..................................John 6:70-71
2: Judas was a traitor................................Luke 6:16
3: Judas was a betrayer.............................Multiple scriptures.
4: Judas was a thief..................................John 12:6
5: Judas didn't care for the poor..................John 12:6
6: Judas was spiritually unclean..................John 13:11
7: Judas guilty of a greater sin...................John 19:11
8: Judas is a wicked man............................Psalms 109:6
9: Judas is condemned...............................Psalms 109:7
10: Judas is lost........................................John 17:12
11: Judas is the son of perdition..................John 17:12
12: Judas' prayer is sin................................Psalms 109:7
13: Judas deserves no mercy.......................Psalms 109:12
14: Judas committed suicide........................Matthew 27:5
15: Judas influenced by Satan......................John 13:2
16: Judas had Satan within him....................Luke 22:3-6
17: Judas harmed Christ..............................John 13:18, Psalms 41:9
18: Judas better off never born....................Mark 14:18-2, Matthew 26:24
19: Judas knew he sinned against Jesus........Matthew 27:3-5
20: Judas' habitation to be desolate.............Acts 1:20, Psalms 69:25

The scriptures say he is a lost and condemned son of perdition and deserves no mercy so that's what his fate is.

 

[WPM]

The ancient Israelites did not get rid of any of the Canaaite peoples. They conquered them, but failed to clear the Land as God required of them. The consequence of this was how they intermarried and worshipped their gods, resulting in their exile from the holy Land.
Proved by the next Book after Joshua: Judges1:10-36 describes how NONE of the tribes of Israel fulfilled their task.

So God's Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, remains to be fulfilled. But this time the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land Himself. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Then His holy faithful Christian peoples, the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, Galatians 3:26-29, will migrate there and live there in peace and prosperity. John sees them here in Revelation 7:9

The temporal conditional old covenant arrangement couldn’t continue because man proved himself to be untrustworthy, lacking the ability to fulfil the lofty demands of the law.

Christ came and fulfilled the law and open up the eternal to mankind. What is more, he opened up the nations to salvation, treating the Gentiles on an equal footing to natural Israel.

The literal straightforward meaning of the word owlam in the old Testament was “time out of sight” (past or present). This is reinforced by the amount of Old Testament promises and practices that had owlam attached to them that have now come to an end. The old covenant land promise is just one of many similar promises that terminated at or before the First Advent. Most of the old covenant promises made to man and Israel died because man was unable to keep his side of the bargain.

The only ones that actually lasted were those that were totally dependent upon God, as He proved faithful in everything He said or did. That is why the future promises pertaining to David’s son ruling forever as Israel’s King did not relate to the old covenant or human Hebrew kings, but to their arrival of Christ and the new covenant arrangement. Christ fulfilled the messianic expectation through His sinless life, atoning death, glorious resurrection and His final ascent to assume the heavenly throne. There he sets in the unchallenged place of supreme kingship over all creation and the place of messianic kingship over His new creation.

Joshua obviously took the promised territory. Scripture proves that. But this was not the eternal promised land. Christ was. The writer of the Hebrews is always pointing the Jew to something greater, higher and longer lasting than mere real estate in the Middle East. Hebrews 4:8 is showing us that the possession of the physical land boundaries of Israel wasn’t the true and lasting “rest” that Joshua, and Israel needed or longed for. Christ and the glorified state, where man would finally be delivered from the bondage of corruption by the redemption of our bodies and enter into the perfect eternal state, was.

 

[WPM]

Nope.

Sorry, but I didn't know you were trying to teach some sort of 2nd chance for salvation, after dying in sin and rebellion.

There will be only the first resurrection of the saints, which will include all the righteous since Abel. And then the rest of the dead will not live again until the great while throne judgement, which will include all the wicked dead of earth.

That is when their deeds will be judged, not when they'll be given another chance to repent.

What you are missing, and so is Premil, is that other clear Scripture shows "the first resurrection" to be Christ's glorious conquering of the grave. We see that "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5) relates to what Christ secured 2000 years ago.

 

[covenantee]

Unbelievers won't be given salvation.


Judas also won't receive salvation. His fate is already given:

1: Judas was a devil..................................John 6:70-71
2: Judas was a traitor................................Luke 6:16
3: Judas was a betrayer.............................Multiple scriptures.
4: Judas was a thief..................................John 12:6
5: Judas didn't care for the poor..................John 12:6
6: Judas was spiritually unclean..................John 13:11
7: Judas guilty of a greater sin...................John 19:11
8: Judas is a wicked man............................Psalms 109:6
9: Judas is condemned...............................Psalms 109:7
10: Judas is lost........................................John 17:12
11: Judas is the son of perdition..................John 17:12
12: Judas' prayer is sin................................Psalms 109:7
13: Judas deserves no mercy.......................Psalms 109:12
14: Judas committed suicide........................Matthew 27:5
15: Judas influenced by Satan......................John 13:2
16: Judas had Satan within him....................Luke 22:3-6
17: Judas harmed Christ..............................John 13:18, Psalms 41:9
18: Judas better off never born....................Mark 14:18-2, Matthew 26:24
19: Judas knew he sinned against Jesus........Matthew 27:3-5
20: Judas' habitation to be desolate.............Acts 1:20, Psalms 69:25

The scriptures say he is a lost and condemned son of perdition and deserves no mercy so that's what his fate is.

Who are "they" in Zechariah 12:10?

 

[ewq1938]

Who are "they" in Zechariah 12:10?

Not all Jews not to mention it says nothing about anyone suddenly converting. Anyone not a saved Christian during the GT will take the mark and marked people aren't converting even if they wail and mourn at the second coming.

 

[Marty fox]

This is an honest question, I would like to hear any answers to.

Aside from the Scriptural argument itself, which can go one way or the other.

Why is there sometimes such zeal to not believe in Jesus' millennial reign, with His resurrected saints on this earth?

It's not like it has an effect on Christian living at this time. Or does it?

What's wrong with Jesus returning and reigning in Person on earth as the Lion of Judah?

I mean, doesn't He have the right to do so as Creator? Hasn't He even more than earned the right to do so, having been the slain Lamb of God?

Seriously, it's almost like blasphemy to some people, to even suggest Jesus Christ has any right to personally rule over His earth in any amount of time He pleases.

When you think about, with some of the mockery brought in, there's got to be something more spiritual to it, than just passion of knowledge, and thinking to rebuke false doctrine.

When John the Baptist was in prison he was confused about Jesus and sent his deciples to ask if Jesus really was the messiah. This was after it was revealed to John that Jesus was the messiah and even he himself declared it at Jesus baptism. He asked this because it didn,t look like what John expected it to look Like. John like the Jews expected Jesus to kick out the Romans and rule from the temple in Jerusalem.

And how did Jesus answer them?

Matthew 11:4-6
4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[b] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

He quoted parts of Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35 is what the Jews and some Christians believe to be the millennium kingdom. Thus Jesus was saying that the time of lsaiah 35 was at the time of the first advent.

 

[ewq1938]

When John the Baptist was in prison he was confused about Jesus and sent his deciples to ask if Jesus really was the messiah. This was after it was revealed to John that Jesus was the messiah and even he himself declared it at Jesus baptism. He asked this because it didn,t look like what John expected it to look Like. John like the Jews expected Jesus to kick out the Romans and rule from the temple in Jerusalem.

And how did Jesus answer them?

Matthew 11:4-6
4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[b] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

He quoted parts of Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35 is what the Jews and some Christians believe to be the millennium kingdom. Thus Jesus was saying that the time of lsaiah 35 was at the time of the first advent.

Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the expectations of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amillennialists make the same error the Pharisees did by wanting the rule over the nations with a rod of iron to be happening now when the truth is that rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

 

[Keraz]

Joshua obviously took the promised territory. Scripture proves that. But this was not the eternal promised land. Christ was. The writer of the Hebrews is always pointing the Jew to something greater, higher and longer lasting than mere real estate in the Middle East. Hebrews 4:8 is showing us that the possession of the physical land boundaries of Israel wasn’t the true and lasting “rest” that Joshua, and Israel needed or longed for. Christ and the glorified state, where man would finally be delivered from the bondage of corruption by the redemption of our bodies and enter into the perfect eternal state, was.

If God does not have a people in His holy Land, who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, then He will have failed.

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Joel 1:15-20, +

The true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all His people, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 5:26-29, Isaiah 66:19b-21

Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12

Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.

Romans 9:24-26 You Christians are My people and in the same place as Israel was rejected, you shall be called Children of the Living God.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the leader of the OWG. Daniel 9:27 What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20
Isaiah 28:21-22 refers to the great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13

So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how all the wicked are destroyed then.
But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.


For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; eventual total annihilation.

 

[WPM]

Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the expectations of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amillennialists make the same error the Pharisees did by wanting the rule over the nations with a rod of iron to be happening now when the truth is that rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

Your teachers have taught you wrong. He is ruling right now. He rules at the right hand of majesty. Premils and the Pharisees just have a wrong perception of the kingdom, Christ's rule and where it occurs.

 

[WPM]

If God does not have a people in His holy Land, who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, then He will have failed.

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Joel 1:15-20, +

The true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all His people, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 5:26-29, Isaiah 66:19b-21

Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12

Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.

Romans 9:24-26 You Christians are My people and in the same place as Israel was rejected, you shall be called Children of the Living God.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the leader of the OWG. Daniel 9:27 What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20
Isaiah 28:21-22 refers to the great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13

So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how all the wicked are destroyed then.
But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.


For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; eventual total annihilation.

I have refuted all this for years.

BTW, why do you deny the deity of Christ? That is heresy and blasphemy!

 

[covenantee]

Not all Jews not to mention it says nothing about anyone suddenly converting. Anyone not a saved Christian during the GT will take the mark and marked people aren't converting even if they wail and mourn at the second coming.

Don't premils believe that all Israel will be saved? Romans 11:26

 

[jeffweeder]

Anyone not a saved Christian during the GT will take the mark and marked people aren't converting even if they wail and mourn at the second coming.

True. We have the saved and the unsaved witnessing his second coming.
So, what happens to those unsaved at his coming?


Rev
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


So, who exactly is going to populate a future millennium.


Rev 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

 

[Marty fox]

True. We have the saved and the unsaved witnessing his second coming.
So, what happens to those unsaved at his coming?


Rev
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


So, who exactly is going to populate a future millennium.


Rev 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

And don’t forget this one

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If this was before the thousand years who would be around for it if the flesh of all people were eaten by the birds?