Question: Why not believe in Christ's millennial reign on earth?

[ewq1938]

Don't premils believe that all Israel will be saved? Romans 11:26

Yes but it is not understood the same by everyone. It also is not related to anything Premill (Christ returning before the Millennium begins)

 

[ewq1938]

True. We have the saved and the unsaved witnessing his second coming.
So, what happens to those unsaved at his coming?

Most are alive and enter into the Millennium, Rev 2 and 19 mention this future rule over them.

 

[jeffweeder]

And don’t forget this one

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If this was before the thousand years who would be around for it if the flesh of all people were eaten by the birds?

I love corroboration.

1. Psalm 69:28
   May they be blotted out of the book of life[and their lives come to an end] And may they not be recorded with the righteous (those in right standing with God).
   
   
2. Daniel 12:1
   “Now at that [end] time Michael, the great [angelic] prince who stands guard over the children of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; but at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the Book [of Life], will be rescued.
   
   
3. Philippians 4:3
   Indeed, I ask you too, my true companion, to help these women [to keep on cooperating], for they have shared my struggle in the [cause of the] gospel, together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.
   
   
4. Revelation 3:5
   He who overcomes [the world through believing that Jesus is the Son of God] will accordingly be dressed in white clothing; and I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, and I will confess and openly acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels [saying that he is one of Mine].
   
   
5. Revelation 13:8
   All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].
   
   
6. Revelation 17:8
   “The beast that you saw was [once], but [now] is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit, the dwelling place of demons) and go to destruction (perdition). And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast, because he was and is not and is yet to come [to earth].
   
   
7. Revelation 20:12
   And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].
   
8. Revelation 20:15
   And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

 

[jeffweeder]

Most are alive and enter into the Millennium, Rev 2 and 19 mention this future rule over them.

How?, when all and everyone on the planet, not in the BOL will worship the Beast.
All not written in the BOL will be destined for Judgment.

Furthermore, we are only going to know this outcome of who is and isn't in the book of life, only when it is opened,
Jesus reveals this at his second coming folks.

Jn 12

31 Now judgment is upon this world [the sentence is being passed]. Now the ruler of this world (Satan) will be cast out. 32 And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].” 33 He said this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 At this the crowd answered Him, “[e]We have heard from the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; how then can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “The Light is among you [only] a little while longer. Walk while you have the Light [keep on living by it], so that darkness will not overtake you. He who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going [he is drifting aimlessly]. 36 While you have the Light, believe and trust in the Light [have faith in it, hold on to it, rely on it], so that you may become sons of Light [being filled with Light as followers of God].”

Jesus said these things, and then He left and hid Himself from them. 37 Even though He had done so many signs (attesting miracles) right before them, yet they still did not believe and failed to trust Him— 38 This was to fulfill what Isaiah the prophet said: “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm (the power) of the Lord been shown (unveiled, revealed)?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] would heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke about Him. 42 Nevertheless, even many of the leading men believed in Him [as Savior and Messiah], but because of the Pharisees they would not confess it, for fear that [if they acknowledged Him openly] they would be put out of the synagogue (excommunicated); 43 for they loved the approval of men more than the approval of God.

44 But Jesus loudly declared, “The one who believes and trusts in Me does not believe [only] in Me but [also believes] in Him who sent Me. 45 And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes and trusts in Me [as Savior—all those who anchor their hope in Me and rely on the truth of My message] will not continue to live in darkness.

47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day

 

[Keraz]

I have refuted all this for years.

BTW, why do you deny the deity of Christ? That is heresy and blasphemy!

Your refutations are rubbish and unscriptural, as well as divorced from reality.

Jesus was born of woman, with a lineage back to Adam, thru Joseph; Matthew 1:1-16 and Mary, Luke 3:23-38

Luke 1:32 Jesus will be called the Son of the Most High.......
He was and is not; God the Father Almighty. However Jesus is the God of this world, He is our God and Saviour.

 

[ewq1938]

How?, when all and everyone on the planet, not in the BOL will worship the Beast.
All not written in the BOL will be destined for Judgment.

The GWTJ happens after the second coming and Millennium. Christ returns, then the nations are ruled over as Rev 2 and 19 declare. Amill always ignores the future tense verbs used in those passages concerning the rule over the nations.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19 :: King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 19 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

www.blueletterbible.org

Revelation 19:15 Interlinear: and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,

biblehub.com

Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

 

[covenantee]

Yes but it is not understood the same by everyone. It also is not related to anything Premill (Christ returning before the Millennium begins)

I didn't ask about everyone. I asked about premils.

You're a premil. How do you understand it?

 

[WPM]

The GWTJ happens after the second coming and Millennium. Christ returns, then the nations are ruled over as Rev 2 and 19 declare. Amill always ignores the future tense verbs used in those passages concerning the rule over the nations.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19 :: King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 19 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

www.blueletterbible.org

Revelation 19:15 Interlinear: and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,

biblehub.com

Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

Exactly. He is going to shepherd the nations when He comes. He will divide the sheep from the goats. What is so difficult about that? That is pretty easy to grasp. Then He destroys all that are not His. Why do you constantly deny the obvious? No one survives in Revelation 19. You are fighting with Scripture again.

 

[ewq1938]

I didn't ask about everyone. I asked about premils.

You're a premil. How do you understand it?

My answer comes from just being a bible studying Christian, not related to my Premill position as explained.

All Israel is saved because the NT Israel are saved Christians of all races. Anyone not in Christ is not part of Israel and won't be saved even if they are blood related to the old Israel (12 tribes)

 

[covenantee]

My answer comes from just being a bible studying Christian, not related to my Premill position as explained.

All Israel is saved because the NT Israel are saved Christians of all races. Anyone not in Christ is not part of Israel and won't be saved even if they are blood related to the old Israel (12 tribes)

The vast majority of amils agree.

The vast majority of premils do not.

 

[ewq1938]

The vast majority of amils agree.

The vast majority of premils do not.

I know.

I also reject any idea that animal sacrifices etc will happen in the Millennium ie: Ezekiel 40+ aren't prophecy.

 

[robert derrick]

They that are alive on earth are not "they" who pierced him.

They who pierced him will be resurrected to fulfill Zechariah's prophecy.

And they will receive salvation.

And that will include Judas.

Dispensationally speaking.

Everyone that repents not is they who pierced Him.

If you confine those who pierced Him to the physical act, then it is only one Roman. If you extend it to more than the physical act, then you begin symbolizing, which includes all men since Adam and wicked Cain, where righteous Abel's blood is a foreshadowing of Christ's.

He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just the ones that physically accused and crucified Him.

Those already dead in flames of hell were preached to and condemned already, because they believed not nor repented before the grave.

There is no resurrection from the dead in hell, other than unto everlasting shame and contempt.

 

[robert derrick]

Yet not a word at all about that happening. It is the people of the Earth that need ruling for the Mill, and that is exactly where Jesus and the immortal saints rule from.



The saints are the immortal believers that enter into the Mill to help rule with the rod of iron. Scripture is silent on the idea of converts during the Mill.




Again, I don't know. When we don't know something we fill in the blanks with our imagination. But it is worth thinking about, I would guess?

Yes, that's true. Just speculation. I haven't seen any Scripture to show what happens with the souls of the natural born, whether they can be saved in Christ Jesus or not. My reasoning is yes, and that even with the best of conditions, many won't. Which proves conditions don't decide anything, but the individual person does.

It will start with only the natural neighborly sheep, and end with many of the nations following after Satan one last time.

Once again, as with those gathered at Armageddon, only the multitude of the nations, will be there to personally make war with God.

Scripture never says every man, woman, and child.

 

[robert derrick]

"RIGHT-MINDED CHRISTIANS...ARE ASSURED THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IN JERUSALEM, WHICH WILL THEN BE BUILT ADORNED, AND ENLARGED, AS THE PROPHETS EZEKIEL AND ISAIAH AND OTHERS DECLARE." -- JUSTIN MARTYR



Tertullian, who gave us the Latin word "Trinity" was also a strong premillennialist. He makes his premillennialism clear when he says the following: "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld."

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Jesus repeated several prophecies of the righteous inheriting the earth, which will be a time of peace on earth.

To say it is only the new earth, and not the old, is without sense. At times, interpreters don't respect the Lord as a real Person, Who can say exactly what He means.

Prophecy of Scripture about the new heaven and earth were in the Old and New Testaments.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And so, if it were only the new earth being prophesied, then God would have said so.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

The best interpretation is always the one that makes simple sense to a little child. Those with pre-conclusions of their own, will always read something nonsensical into the Scripture, to make it fit with their favorite teachings, like misshaping pieces into a puzzle.

We look for ruling with Him on this earth first, and also on the new earth forever.

Taking Scripture as written is always the best way to teach doctrine of God. If it's not literal, then Scripture will confirm it.

 

[robert derrick]

Obviously Jesus was warning that a false Christ would come which is unrelated to anything Mill related. This is just your own personal desperate attempt to deny the biblical Earthly Mill. This screams, "I don't understand how to support a biblical claim."

Since He will return in the air with power, there is no way for an honest Christian to mistake Him for some earthly religious leader, forcing all to worship himself as God on pain of death.

The saints didn't do it for the Caesar of the day, nor will they today, nor tomorrow.

 

[robert derrick]

My answer comes from just being a bible studying Christian, not related to my Premill position as explained.

All Israel is saved because the NT Israel are saved Christians of all races. Anyone not in Christ is not part of Israel and won't be saved even if they are blood related to the old Israel (12 tribes)

Exactly. All the prophets searched for the promise, when all that are in Israel, are indeed Israel of God

No more hypocrites, that claim to be a child of Israel by outward circumcision alone.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Same with those professing Christ, but denying Him in works.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If you confine those who pierced Him to the physical act, then it is only one Roman.

You bring up a good point. Still, I can’t help but wonder. Arn’t those that caused him to be hung on a cross counted as those who pierced him? Perhaps it’s speaking of the people of that nation whose priesthood advocated it being the Jews. There is also the possibility it is larger, as you said, and it reflects upon Hebrews 6:6

I like how one puts it:
It is therefore of those who, with a distinct conviction of the divine mission of Jesus, have deliberately joined His foes, unite in denouncing Him as a “deceiver” (Matthew 27:63), rejoice in His shame, and thus “for themselves crucify a second time the Son of God”.

It is the latter reason, I believe to be its main point. Though I understand it can have a wider meaning. Is crucifying and piercing part of the same understanding? It’s quite possible that it was meant to convey a past event on the cross and not future. Something to think about!!!!

 

[robert derrick]

I showed you the evidence and you rejected it. This is a Premil trait. They don't let the inspired evidence get in the way of their opinion.

The Lord kept His Word. If you would simply let the Word speak for itself. After Moses death, Joshua was given the command of the Lord to go in and inherit the land.

Joshua 1:1-6 records, “after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, Moses my servant is dead; now therefore ARISE, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.”

The land to be taken was therefore in perfect accord with that promised unto Abraham.

Joshua 11:23 confirms its complete fulfilment, saying, “So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the Lord said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war.”

The land promised unto Moses was exactly the same as that promised unto Abraham. Therefore, Joshua inherited the whole land promised unto Abraham, Isaac and Jacob proving the faithfulness of the promises of God.

Joshua 15:1, 4 confirms the Southern border was taken, saying, "This then was the lot of the tribe of the children of Judah … From thence it passed toward Azmon, and went out unto the river of Egypt; and the goings out of that coast were at the sea: this shall be your south coast.”

Joshua reiterates the gracious fulfilment of this promise, in Joshua 21:43-45, saying, “And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.”

In this passage, Joshua expands, stating that “the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it.” Thus, expressly confirming the fulfilment of the land promise and linking of the same was the same as that promised unto Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Again, it was evidently possessed in full.

Whilst, God provision was an eternal promise for the believing Israel

Joshua 22:4: “And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.”

Shortly before Joshua’s death, recorded in Joshua 23:14-16, God’s servant reminded the people of God’s existing favor upon them and how graciously He had fulfilled ALL His promises unto them, saying, “And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.”

I showed the Scripture, where Abraham is promised the land he walked on, which hasn't happened yet.

In typical fashion, a disingenuous teacher doesn't have to reject it, but just ignore it.

They do so with abundance of words to cover it up.

Until someone addresses certain plain Scripture honestly, then there is no honest argument.

God will keep His promise to give the land Abraham walked on this earth, which promise He made twice.

 

[robert derrick]

You bring up a good point. Still, I can’t help but wonder. Arn’t those that caused him to be hung on a cross counted as those who pierced him? Perhaps it’s speaking of the people of that nation whose priesthood advocated it being the Jews. There is also the possibility it is larger, as you said, and it reflects upon Hebrews 6:6

I like how one puts it:
It is therefore of those who, with a distinct conviction of the divine mission of Jesus, have deliberately joined His foes, unite in denouncing Him as a “deceiver” (Matthew 27:63), rejoice in His shame, and thus “for themselves crucify a second time the Son of God”.

It is the latter reason, I believe to be its main point. Though I understand it can have a wider meaning. Is crucifying and piercing part of the same understanding? It’s quite possible that it was meant to convey a past event on the cross and not future. Something to think about!!!!

True. It's only when someone tries to resurrected one that betrayed Him, that the distinction must be made.

Scripture speaks of they who pierced Him: Those at the cross, and those on earth watching Him return in the air.

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And the scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Judas was not at the cross, nor will he be on the earth at His return.

Being resurrected out of flames of hell, is a foolish wish akin to purgatory. They only teach it as a failsafe for themselves, knowing they are not walking with Christ as we ought.

Spiritually, all men pierced Him, for all have sinned against Him, and now on this time is the day to repent, and not after the grave where there is no repentance nor forgiveness of sins.

 

[robert derrick]

What you are missing, and so is Premil, is that other clear Scripture shows "the first resurrection" to be Christ's glorious conquering of the grave. We see that "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5) relates to what Christ secured 2000 years ago.

I agree with our spiritual resurrection in Christ, while in the flesh walking with Him.

We are of His flesh and bones and seated in heavenly places.

To understand that and live accordingly, does not require doing away with ruling on earth with Him, after being bodily resurrected to meet Him in the air.

Your teaching of our spiritual resurrection in Christ Jesus is certainly true, with many Scripture showing it.

Your arguments against our ruling over and judging the earth with Him, requires you to ignore certain Scripture that demand it.

God will keep His personal promise to give Abraham himself the land he walked on.

So long as you ignore this, then you're many arguments have no integrity.