Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Timtofly]

That is a 'traditional' belief, but it is a doctrine from men, and not what is actually written in God's Word.

I keeping reminding brethren to study what Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, and translate the 4 Greek words in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. And also... to be mindful of Isaiah 25:6-9 where Paul quoted the, "Death is swallowed up in victory" idea from, which applies to ALL nations and peoples at Christ's future return.

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

That above is not only about those in Christ still alive being 'changed' on the day of Christ's coming. It is about 'all'... that are still alive on the earth. The 'dead' are all... resurrected on that day, and all still alive are 'changed' on that day. That is actually what the Scriptures are showing.

But men' doctrines obviously bypass the OT prophets about this future event.

When Jesus comes, man's time in a flesh body will be over. The world to come is about everyone in a "spiritual body", including the "resurrection of damnation."

And I am surprised at how few even stop to consider that those of the "resurrection of damnation" will ALSO be in the body type of the resurrection, which is a "spiritual body"!

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Are you Amil?

Is pre-mill an erroneous doctrine of man?

 

[Truth7t7]

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This is a physical resurrection. What happens after the point they lived again is all physical. Don't you claim a first resurrection for yourself, or are you going to remain dead the rest of your existence?

As you have been shown "Several Times" the resurrection of all takes place at the second coming (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

As you have been shown "Several Times" the resurrection of all takes place at the second coming (The End)

Not true. "the rest of the dead lived not..." proves there are two separate resurrections. Amills will ignore this because they cannot dispute this fact.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Rev 20:5 )

 

[Trekson]

What does that matter? It is a final climactic event that sees the resurrection and judgment of all mankind?

This allows for some time between the two and it's simply the rapture first followed by Armageddon and the sheep and goats judgments and we still have more than a 1000 yrs. to go.

 

[Trekson]

You obviously do not read my posts. The opposite is the truth. Take the time to read back on my posts and you will see this is wrong. Did you even read #513 and #514?

Are you Pretrib?

No as I said before and I just reply to the ones I see. I don't normally have time to back check all the other posts on any given topic.

 

[Trekson]

How about this passage that says all who are in the graves shall be resurrected the same hour that is coming?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Sounds like the GWTJ to me.

 

[Trekson]

That is a 'traditional' belief, but it is a doctrine from men, and not what is actually written in God's Word.

I keeping reminding brethren to study what Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, and translate the 4 Greek words in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. And also... to be mindful of Isaiah 25:6-9 where Paul quoted the, "Death is swallowed up in victory" idea from, which applies to ALL nations and peoples at Christ's future return.

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

That above is not only about those in Christ still alive being 'changed' on the day of Christ's coming. It is about 'all'... that are still alive on the earth. The 'dead' are all... resurrected on that day, and all still alive are 'changed' on that day. That is actually what the Scriptures are showing.

But men' doctrines obviously bypass the OT prophets about this future event.

When Jesus comes, man's time in a flesh body will be over. The world to come is about everyone in a "spiritual body", including the "resurrection of damnation."

And I am surprised at how few even stop to consider that those of the "resurrection of damnation" will ALSO be in the body type of the resurrection, which is a "spiritual body"!

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

The "we" are all believers, no one else. Jesus defeated death at the cross and every christian that dies does so as well when their soul goes to heaven. The John passage sounds like the GWTJ and sorry but the millennium will consist of living humanity who will re-populate the earth.

 

[Trekson]

The fact that a resurrection takes place proves a judgment was made.

The resurrection occurred before Rev. 4. The verse is just saying where they came from which is the same time as the rest of us.

 

[BarneyFife]

No, it really doesn't. and if you would bother to look up in a Greek dictionary you would see so!.

Now go and learn what utterly destroy in eternity means. It is not teh Wathctower definition they got from Arius that the wicked will be destroyed. It means they are ruined for eternity utterly. NO chance to be brought back.

REv. 14:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Dead people have no torment, nor do they even have no rest- they simply aren't!

.
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For the record, I'm not going to play your typical volleyball game of repetitious and insulting over-simplification ("just go read a Greek dictionary"), virtue-signaling ("I'm a multiple soul-winning, nice guy everywhere but here"), and cancel culture ("Watchtower" this; "LDS/SDA cult" that). Sorry, Ron, but you're infamous/legend here (to be fair, you are by no means alone). And I'm not going to respond to any of your "I know you are but what am I" posts, either. You're a bit long in the tooth to be carrying on so childishly, btw. I'm only posting this so others will know that your schtick isn't intimidating--just mind-numbingly exhausting.
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[Brakelite]

Soul Sleep" Is A False Teaching, 7th Day Adventism's (Ellen G. White) Was A False Prophetess, 2,000+ Self Proclaimed Dreams And Visions Given By God, "A Lie"!

Annihilation is a false doctrine found within the cults of 7th Day Adventism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, The wicked will suffer eternal conscious

Is that it? That's all you've got? Just insults and blanket denials of the obvious?

DESTRUCTION
KJV Psalms 145:20
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
KJV Psalms 101:8
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.
KJV Psalms 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Psalms 92:7
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
KJV Proverbs 13:13
13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
KJV Proverbs 10:29
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
KJV Philippians 3:19
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV 1 Timothy 6:9
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV Matthew 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
PERISH
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Proverbs 19:9
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
KJV Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV 2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
BURNT UP
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
CONSUMED
KJV Isaiah 1:28
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Psalms 104:35
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
DEVOURED
KJV Psalms 21:9
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
KJV Psalms 37:2, 9, 22, 28, 34, 38
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Proverbs 2:22
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
PERDITION... UTTER RUIN
KJV Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
KJV 2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
CEASE TO EXIST
KJV Psalms 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Your claim that a fire that burns for all eternity doesn't destroy anyone, presupposes that the 'anyone' has also received the gift of eternal life. Please provide one example where scripture even remotely suggests that eternal life is given to sinners. Perhaps you could start with Genesis 3:22-24. Oh wait, no, don't go there...

 

[rwb]

Sounds like the GWTJ to me.

Exactly! Where both those who have done good and those who have done evil are resurrected at the same hour that is coming. No separate resurrection for the good, then one thousand years later another resurrection for those who have done evil. At the same hour that is coming all of humanity will be bodily resurrected to either resurrection life or condemnation in the LOF.

 

[Truth7t7]

the millennium will consist of living humanity who will re-populate the earth.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Davy]

The "we" are all believers, no one else. Jesus defeated death at the cross and every christian that dies does so as well when their soul goes to heaven. The John passage sounds like the GWTJ and sorry but the millennium will consist of living humanity who will re-populate the earth.

That is simply an assumption.

In 1 Corinthians 15:49 Apostle Paul said that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly". Have the wicked borne the "image of the earthy"? Yes. They also shall bear the "image of the heavenly", which the "resurrection of damnation" especially points to.

And John 5:28-29 emphatically points to the day of Christ's future return, simply because that is when the resurrection will occur, and that Scripture does not... separate the two resurrection types by time.

 

[Davy]

Exactly! Where both those who have done good and those who have done evil are resurrected at the same hour that is coming. No separate resurrection for the good, then one thousand years later another resurrection for those who have done evil. At the same hour that is coming all of humanity will be bodily resurrected to either resurrection life or condemnation in the LOF.

But Trekson showed he believes the John 5 Scripture involves the Great White Throne judgment (GWTJ). So I think you have misunderstood him.

I believe like you, that ALL... the dead are raised on the day of Christ's coming, which is actually what that John 5:28-29 Scripture is pointing to.

There are many that still wrongly believe the Millennial time will continue to involve flesh bodies when it won't. This is why Apostle Paul was pointing to Isaiah 25 with 'Death swallowed up in victory'. Paul was pointing to the death of this present world, i.e., the death of the flesh body. That idea will be over when Jesus returns.

The only type death then remaining will be the "second death", which is the casting of the spirit-soul into the future "lake of fire", which is what Lord Jesus was warning about in Matthew 10:28. The first death is the death of the flesh body. That is not what is involved at the "second death". If it were, then it would give support to the false theory of reincarnation, which is actually what some have wrongly believed about the resurrection being to another flesh body.

 

[Timtofly]

As you have been shown "Several Times" the resurrection of all takes place at the second coming (The End)

As you have been shown, the OT redeemed were resurrected at the Cross. Lazarus was resurrected before the Cross. More than one single resurrection.

 

[BarneyFife]

you are talking to a wall Barn, best of luck there

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lol. Don't you just love Reactionary Theology?

It's always puzzled me the way that the folks who have the least profitable things to say, do so the loudest and most desperately.

As though God had no power to convince people of His own words


.
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[Trekson]

Exactly! Where both those who have done good and those who have done evil are resurrected at the same hour that is coming. No separate resurrection for the good, then one thousand years later another resurrection for those who have done evil. At the same hour that is coming all of humanity will be bodily resurrected to either resurrection life or condemnation in the LOF.

The GWTJ is the last of the judgements w/ a few occuring on different peoples at different times for different reasons just as scripture teaches.

 

[ewq1938]

The resurrection occurred before Rev. 4. The verse is just saying where they came from which is the same time as the rest of us.

The resurrection takes place in the timeframe of verse 4. If it happened just before, it makes no difference. The timeframe is after the second coming and the resurrection happens at that time. The dead saints living again is contrasted to the rest of the dead who do not live again until much time passes proving two days of resurrection which supports Premill.

 

[Trekson]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Time will tell but I tend to believe what the bible says and most of your verses are of the post mill timing. I have over 6 full pages of prophetic scriptures speaking of the Messiah's reign of upon the Earth.

 

[Trekson]

That is simply an assumption.

In 1 Corinthians 15:49 Apostle Paul said that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly". Have the wicked borne the "image of the earthy"? Yes. They also shall bear the "image of the heavenly", which the "resurrection of damnation" especially points to.

And John 5:28-29 emphatically points to the day of Christ's future return, simply because that is when the resurrection will occur, and that Scripture does not... separate the two resurrection types by time.

I have over six full pages of ot propecies declaring otherwise.