No one is bearing false witness against you or saying you said something you did not say. So quit with your baseless accusations because you let your emotions dictate your responses. Allow me to explain the reason why I introduced the verses 1Cor15:52-53 into the conversation seeing as how you have chosen not to use your critical thinking skill and instead have allowed emotion to dictate your responses as a result of being unable to defend the doctrine you espouse.
You stated this about me in your post #19:
And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet.
Then you went on to quote 1 Cor.15:52-53 along with your above wrong assumption towards me. And that when we have not even been discussing that Scripture. You have no factual basis for that assumption; you just made it up. Fact is, I most definitely do... regard the 1 Cor.15:52-53 Scripture about our being changed to incorruptible bodies at that "last trump" Paul spoke of.
Then you continued with some far out idea of that being associated with corruption of a building, like desolation of the temple, which are two totally unrelated Biblical concepts.
In post #14 of this thread you said that;
"The spiritual metaphorical temple idea applied to our Lord Jesus and His Body of believers CANNOT BE CORRUPTED. If it could be, then none... would have Salvation through Christ Jesus. What Paul declared about the false one coming to sit in the temple of God per 2 Thess.2 is a corrupting... of a temple, false worship, rebellion against The Father and His Son.
And all... those who don't bring forth good fruit in Christ Jesus are cut off... from His spiriutal temple, so those could never be included."
While your statement in another post that the cornerstone of the temple (Christ) cannot be corrupted is true, we must rember that a significant part of the temple of God is “lively stones” (believers) as a result whether we like it or not we must recognize that we all fall short and are corruptible.
You're confused. Doctrines of men have taught you to confuse the difference between Christ Jesus and His Church represented by a spiritual Temple, vs. a literal physical temple in Jerusalem. The spiritual Temple cannot... be corrupted, for it is Heavenly, like the New Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above which is free that Apostle Paul spoke of (Gal.4:26; Heb.12:22; Rev.3:12). The spiritual Temple is in relation to Christ's Kingdom from which all things that offend and those who do iniquity, are cast out (Matt.13:41). That's why that temple Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2 with a false one coming to sit in it can never... mean the spiritual Temple with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone, and His Apostles and the prophets and His FAITHFUL Church as part of its foundation stones! To think for even one second Christ's Foundation of Salvation can be corrupted by anything, or anyone, is to be in terrible confusion and failing to understand per Scripture how such a thing is impossible. Jesus even said the gates of hell cannot prevail against His Church, and that means His Faithful Church, not those who fall away from it and are cut off because of iniquity.
Have you not read this?
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)
A good question one should ask theirself about that, is how can those do those works in Christ's Name, yet they are found guilty of iniquity when He returns, and He tells them to get away from Him? It will be because of the very matter Paul was speaking of in the 2 Thess.2 chapter of a false one coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem the deceived will think is Christ returned, their bowing to a false one that comes first, thinking he's our Lord Jesus. Satan is given all power to perform great signs, miracles, and lying wonders to pull that off, which is what Paul was taking about in 2 Thess.2:9.
Just as 1Cor15:52-53 proves by showing that we don’t put on incorruptibility until the last trump. Like it or not the temple of God has become corrupted! If not then there would not be a multitude of different doctrines and denominations.
You're totally wrong that the true spiritual Temple could ever... be corrupted by those who fall away from Christ Jesus. That's equal to saying that wickedness can dwell in Christ Jesus, since He is The Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual Temple. Those who do wickedness, whether as a believer or a non-believer, are cut off from that spiritual Temple. It cannot be corrupted.
But earthly Churches that exist with buildings can be corrupted, which is exactly the idea with that temple Paul speaks of in 2 Thess.2:3-4. Jesus even said His elect will be delivered up to "synagogues" and councils to give a Testimony 'against' them (Matt.10:17-18; Mark 13:9).
It isn'tour doctrine are denomination that saves us but our faith in Christ. Many who have strong faith (I believe you and I both fall into this category) have doctrines that are in error (once again we all fall short, I doubt if either of us have perfect doctrine in all subjects) and as a result theire is corruption within the temple.
The New Testament spiritual Temple has Christ Jesus and that Faith on Him as its basis. So how is it you say the spiritual Temple can be corrupted? A believer dwelling on false doctrines to fall away or doing wickedness becomes cut off from that spiritual Temple, seeing how Christ Jesus is its Cornerstone. It's not about our understanding being perfect, for a believer on Christ Jesus as their Saviour should never have that idea that His spiritual Temple can ever be corrupted. But go ahead, hold onto that false idea which is from men's doctrines and not at all Biblical. Men taught you to think that, not God in His Word.
A fact that had you used critical thinking skills you would have recognized if you had answered the questions I asked. But as we can all see once again you chose to become emotional because your doctrine has been shown to be in error and as a result have let your emotions dictate your response, regardless of the validity of that response. So the reality is that you are bearing false witness by accusing me of saying you said something you didn’t, even though I never accused you saying what you say I supposedly accused you of saying! Your false accusation is forgiven!
You did bear false witness against me, saying that I ignore the 1 Cor.15:52-53 event, when I do not. Too late to retract your lie now.
As for your remarks about critical thinking, you make joke of yourself, especially with that false idea from men's doctrines that Christ's spiritual Temple can be corrupted. False prophets in their vain attempt to deny Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about a false one coming to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem as God for the last days came up with the doctrine of treating that temple as Christ's spiritual Temple of Ephesians 2. All you're doing is following them, and not... using critical thinking by any means!
I think we all recognize that the reason you are still talking to me is that you are bent on defending your doctrine at any costs. I realize you are upset because the doctrine you espouse has been brought into question, but it really isn't about defending our doctrine but seeking and promoting truth.
The only reason is in hope you might... come to the Truth of Scripture as written, and stop listening to doctrines of men. But I now have great doubt you will do that, at least not for the end of this world. You will though when Christ does return to end the false messiah's reign, like Paul revealed in 2 Thess.2:8.
So let’s do a little recap here and try to start fresh. This time maybe you can actually address the points I make with Scriptural proof instead of doctrinally based arguments that have been built in the absence of sound hermeneutics. When it comes to antichrist or antichrists I believe that antichrist is a spirit or individual that denies Christ/God and there are many that have existed since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the terms antichrist or antichrists. I don’t believe that in 1 John2:18 when he said “as ye have heard antichrist shall come” he was referring to an individual singular future antichrist. My reasoning is based on Scripture because in 1John4:3 (the same Epistle1John2:18 is in) he also told us “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard should come; and even now already is it in the world”. So let’s look at those verses and see if what I believe is supported by Scripture.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Your reasoning on that is like the joke of what came first, the eggs or the chicken. The "many antichrists" cannot exist without a singular "antichrist" having existed first. Even the idea of the 'spirit of antichrist' cannot exist without first a singular antichrist who that spirit originates from.
The idea of "sound hermeneutics" must first pass the scope of common sense within simple grammar of the Scriptures, which the doctrine of men about no singular antichrist in 1 John 2:18 does not. And if those 1 John verses are the only relevant Scripture you know about that antichrist subject, that's absolute proof of your being deceived by listening to traditions of men instead.
On the other hand you believe that not only are there many antichrists but that 1John2:18 proves there is an an individual singular antichrist that comes in the end as a false Christ. As I have shown that belief is in error John told us in 1John4:3 when he said “this is that spirit of antcihrist, whereof ye have heard that should come; and even now already is it in the world” John only spoke of one antichrist that should come not two so clearly he was correcting a misconception about antichrists and explaining that antichrists are many not singular and they were already there when he wrote the verses.
You have not proven the idea of a singular antichrist coming for the end is error. You've simply denied John's mention of the antichrist they heard before that was to come, and only chose to recognize his new information to them that many antichrists already existed. He was covering something very deep that you obviously know nothing about, Paul's "mystery of iniquity" that was already at work (2 Thess.2:7).
You have also stated that this future antichrist is a false Christ claiming to be Christ. But as criticlal thinking shows you have created an oxymoron. Per Scripture antichrist is one that denies Christ yet your false Christ is supposedly claiming to be something he denies. How can that be? How can one be claiming to be something he denies exists?
Our Lord Jesus first said it, in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, but the KJV translators chose to render it as "false Christs", when it is the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos' in the Greek, meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. The Matt.24:23 and Matt.24:26 verses reveal He was speaking of a singular false one.
Per the Greek, 'anti' can mean 'against, instead of, or in place of'. And in relation to Satan's first sin of rebellion, THAT... is exactly what he tried to do, put himself above God, and even said that he will "sit upon the mount of the congregation" in place of God! (Isaiah 14). But I suppose you'll try to hide the Biblical meaning of that event too, since you are obviously here to get believers away... from the idea of a coming singular false messiah! That's what the doctrines of men you're on about this matter are designed to do.
Isa 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(KJV)
I believe that per the inspired word of God a beast is a kingdom and can back that up with a verse that actually tells us a beast is a kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
So not only do we have the inspired word of God that tells us beasts are kingdoms we also have history that proves God’s word true. While you on the other hand you have claimed that a beast is the antichrist. Yet you have no Scripture that says a beast is the antichrist.
Since your doctrine must deny the coming of a singular pseudo-Christ; or antichrist, it's no surprise you have to deny the idea of the "another beast" individual, a 2nd beast, per the Rev.13:11-17 Scripture, and per the Rev.17:8-10 Scripture.
Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and
he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And
he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And
he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)
Rev 13:4-8
4
And they worshipped the dragonwhich gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And
there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And
he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)
I wonder why God's Word associates that 2nd beast with that "dragon" name? Hmmm...
But go ahead. Try and deny that Scripture of that false one (dragon) coming to earth to work miracles in the sight of men, with all the world bowing in worship to him, or to that beast image idol he's going to setup.
In addition you even went so far as to claim that (see post57 in the Mark of the beast thread):
Let’s look at those verses and see if Jesus said the beast is Babylon or if this is nothing more then you twisting Scripture and perverting the truth of God’s word in a poor attempt to defend the doctrine you espouse!
I said our Lord uses once again, the name Babylon once again for the end time world beast KINGDOM of Rev.17 through 18.
Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I
saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of
blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed
in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and
pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
As we can all see that Babylom is the woman(the whore) that rides on the back of the beast. Jesus did not use the title of Babylon for the final world beast!!
Babylon is specifically... the "great city" of the last verse of Rev.17...and that "great city" does what???
Rev 17:18
18 And
the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)
Let's see, if a 'great city' reigns over ALL the kings of the earth, then that city represents the CENTER or HEADQUARTERS of the beast kingdom. And if over all kings of the earth, how much of the earth does that cover? All of it, meaning a world kingdom!
But you're probably on the lie that Babylon harlot just represents the fallen away Christian Church.
Are you even a Christian? Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and on Him as your Saviour? You sound more like your on Jewish traditions of the Pharisees than on Christian Doctrine from the New Testament Books.