the 7th Trump

[ewq1938]

That's an interesting detail, thanks.
Is there biblical support for that?

Both NT examples of Noah and Lot support it.

Trying understand the order of events from your perspective.

Here's more on the timing of the vials:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.



Another reason why the bowls/vials are part of the 7th trump:



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


We see these same things when the last one is poured:



Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The exact same things and both ending with a great hail storm:

Rev 11 7th trump "there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail"

Rev 16 "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake" "a great hail out of heaven"

Same exact things because it's the same time frame. Keep in mind Revelation is not chronological in nature. It jumps around and re-visits the same time frame like here.


Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Not to mention the plagues are last, coinciding with the last trump.



The vials are actually poured out in the time frame of these verses.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 *And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:


Here is the same timing of those verses:

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Here we see the temple opened in both passages and both speaking of the wrath of God. 7th trump: and thy wrath is come Rev 15: vials full of the wrath of God. Same timeframe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Make up? Jesus sends His angels in one rapture and the Lord Himself comes for the Church in another rapture.

Yes, you are making it up. The rapture is referenced in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as everyone here knows (except for some of the partial preterists). There is no other rapture event recorded in scripture besides that one. You are making that up. That event is also recorded in other scriptures besides that one, but it's the same event.

One rapture is like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And one rapture is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One rapture is the grain harvest and one rapture is the fruit harvest.

One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One rapture the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive that remain are caught up and one rapture the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

And you see one rapture? Wow. How are you able to look past the details?

LOL. I see how you interpret scripture. If a passage does not contain all the same details as another passage then the two passages must be speaking of entirely different events. That's just a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wow.
Sure is great to be a Christian. (sigh)

Do you also believe that the new covenant is not in effect? I believe that is a non-Christian belief. It's like saying that Jesus has not shed His blood for our sins.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's more on the timing of the vials:

Thanks for the great info.
What horrible things this is saying.
I was trying to imagine the great hail from heaven and the damage it would do.
Could potentially destroy everything. (if it was everywhere)

I certainly don't want to be here if this actually happens.
Are you certain this should be taken literally?
Is there another view? Yikes!

Nightmare stuff, like the hell doctrine.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Wow.
Sure is great to be a Christian. (sigh)

Do you also believe that the new covenant is not in effect? I believe that is a non-Christian belief. It's like saying that Jesus has not shed His blood for our sins.

How did you get that from my post?
And then accuse me of having a "non-Christian belief".
As if non-Christians believe that the new covenant is not in effect. - LOL
Why would they care?

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for the great info.
What horrible things this is saying.
I was trying to imagine the great hail from heaven and the damage it would do.
Could potentially destroy everything. (if it was everywhere)

I certainly don't want to be here if this actually happens.
Are you certain this should be taken literally?

The hails comes after the rapture. Only the wicked are on the Earth to experience the hail and other parts of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

Yes, you are making it up. The rapture is referenced in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as everyone here knows (except for some of the partial preterists). There is no other rapture event recorded in scripture besides that one. You are making that up. That event is also recorded in other scriptures besides that one, but it's the same event.

Sure there is. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

LOL. I see how you interpret scripture. If a passage does not contain all the same details as another passage then the two passages must be speaking of entirely different events. That's just a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

LOL. I see how you interpret scripture. If a passage contains different details than another passage, it doesn't matter. They mean the exact same thing, despite the obvious differences. That's just a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

 

[The Light]

The hails comes after the rapture. Only the wicked are on the Earth to experience the hail and other parts of the wrath of God.

Not so. Those that flee to a place of protection from the nation of Israel are also on the earth during wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

Is not the Great Tribulation "the coming wrath"? It sounds horrible.
If those days had not been shorted, no one would have survived?
Actually that is a good support for Premillennialism, I suppose.
"... But for the sake of the elect..."

Mark 13:20 NIV
“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Is there no room for differing views on this?
Accusing those with differing views of being deceived by Satan? (sigh)
That seems a bit heavy-handed to me.

"Unless those days are shortened no flesh would be saved but for the Elect's sake I(Jesus) have shortened the days......"

This Scripture alone completely refutes, rebukes and nullifies any 'pre-trib' rapture


#1 - there is no condemnation from me to anyone on here who believe in pre-trib

#2 - the Bible is written for children to read and understand = "simplicity in Christ"

#3 - We all should be striving for = 1 Corinthians 1:4-9
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

#4 - We should all be walking in this = 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

#5 - We should all be avoiding this = 1 Corinthians 1:11-14
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided?
Was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Peace

 

[David in NJ]

The rapture shell game.
Rapture, rapture... who's got the rapture?
You guys are something else.
Pre-, Mid-, Post-, now Two? ??? Wow.

LOVED IT - thank you

 

[St. SteVen]

The hails comes after the rapture. Only the wicked are on the Earth to experience the hail and other parts of the wrath of God.

Oh, I thought the Second Coming was linked to the Rapture? (same time) ???

So, what is the order of events, as you understand it?

Tribulation (3.5 yrs)
Great Tribulation (3.5 yrs)
Rapture (marks end of GT)
Vials and bowls ????
Second Coming ??
Millennium ???

Does the the abomination of desolation separate the two halves of the Tribulation period?

 

[Keraz]

If the new covenant is not yet in effect then that would mean the old covenant, with its many cumbersome commandments and animal sacrifices, is still in effect which is a ridiculous thing for anyone to believe. The old covenant is clearly no longer in effect and it was replaced by the superior new covenant long ago.

Its really simple; we are not now under any Covenant, the old one is done away with..
We have the Promise of making a new Covenant, when we all get together, as is Prophesied.

Maybe Jesus did make a Covenant with the 11 disciples at the Last Supper, but it wasn't with anyone else since then. The scriptures I provided prove it. Your intransigent position denies the Prophesies that tell us how Jesus will appear to His own living people, 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1, and THEN He cut a Covenant with us.

 

[St. SteVen]

"Unless those days are shortened no flesh would be saved but for the Elect's sake I(Jesus) have shortened the days......"

This Scripture alone completely refutes, rebukes and nullifies any 'pre-trib' rapture

I suppose that depends on how the Elect is here defined?
Perhaps an Elite Elect (specially elected) is commissioned to weather the Tribulation. ???
Not sure the general Elect could handle it.
Just thinking out loud here.

What would be the point of Christians (the Elect) being dragged through the Tribulation period?

 

[St. SteVen]

#3 - We all should be striving for = 1 Corinthians 1:4-9
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

#4 - We should all be walking in this = 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

#5 - We should all be avoiding this = 1 Corinthians 1:11-14
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided?
Was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

So, how do we balance these three above to agree with these two below?

#1 - there is no condemnation from me to anyone on here who believe in pre-trib

#2 - the Bible is written for children to read and understand = "simplicity in Christ"

The three above speak of verbal agreement. ("ye all speak the same thing" = no division)
The bottom two speak of tolerance of differing opinions. (NOT speaking the same thing = verbal division?)

My gut tells me the two are better than the three. But the two are opinion, and the three are scripture.

Jesus said,
“Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right?" - Luke 12:57 NIV

 

[St. SteVen]

LOVED IT - thank you

My pleasure, as always.

Question: Do you guys consider yourselves to be Post-Trib, or Pre-Millennial? (may be the same thing?)
Wasn't sure if either term was insulting. I see a lot of Pre-Millennialism bashing on the forum.

 

[St. SteVen]

Maybe Jesus did make a Covenant with the 11 disciples at the Last Supper...

Yes. Anyone who celebrates the Lord's Table (or Eucharist) is observing the new covenant, as I understand it.

1 Corinthians 11:25-26 NIV
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

St. SteVen said:
Wow.
Sure is great to be a Christian. (sigh)

How did you get that from my post?

Because of what you said and the fact that you sighed. What did you mean by what you said?

And then accuse me of having a "non-Christian belief".

I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you if you also believe that the new covenant was not in effect. I didn't say that you did. I don't know. That's why I asked.

As if non-Christians believe that the new covenant is not in effect. - LOL
Why would they care?

Say what now? Why would any Christian not acknowledge that it is in effect when scripture is clear that it was the shed blood of Christ that put it into effect while at the same time making the old covenant obsolete?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Its really simple; we are not now under any Covenant, the old one is done away with..
We have the Promise of making a new Covenant, when we all get together, as is Prophesied.

Nonsense. The reason that the old covenant is called old is because it was made old and obsolete and replaced with the better new covenant.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Maybe Jesus did make a Covenant with the 11 disciples at the Last Supper, but it wasn't with anyone else since then.

LOL. It was a covenant for taking away people's sins by way of His shed blood! How can you think that was only for the disciples? My goodness, you have so little discernment.

The scriptures I provided prove it. Your intransigent position denies the Prophesies that tell us how Jesus will appear to His own living people, 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1, and THEN He cut a Covenant with us.

Those scriptures do not say that. You noticeably do not even quote the verses and show where and how exactly they say what you think they are saying. That says a lot. Why don't you actually quote the part of those verses that you think support what you're saying and then we can discuss that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure there is. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

That is not talking about a different event than 1 Thess 4:14-17.

LOL. I see how you interpret scripture. If a passage contains different details than another passage, it doesn't matter.

It only matters if there are conflicting details in one passage that contradict details in another passage. In that case, they can't be speaking of the same event. But, that is not the case in the passages that talk about the second coming of Christ.

They mean the exact same thing, despite the obvious differences. That's just a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

You're not even thinking here. Take 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31, for example. Both refer to the second coming of Christ. You think those are speaking of entirely different events. Why? They don't contain all the same details, but does one passage contain any details that contradict what is written in the other? No. So, what basis do you have for concluding that they are talking about entirely different events?

 

[The Light]

That is not talking about a different event than 1 Thess 4:14-17.

How can you see that it's not talking about a different event? What you are looking at in 1 Thes 4 is the Lord himself coming for the Church.
What you are looking at in 1 Corinthians 15 is the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God. Two completely separate events. Matthew 24:29-31 occurs at the 6th seal and is 1 Corinthians 15. 1 Thessalonians 4 happens before the seals are opened.

It only matters if there are conflicting details in one passage that contradict details in another passage. In that case, they can't be speaking of the same event. But, that is not the case in the passages that talk about the second coming of Christ.

Second coming? If you consider the second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord, then Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming. But this coming is in the clouds at the 6th seal. Here is that coming

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus remains in the clouds and then takes the believers to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Then He will return with the armies of heaven and set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

You're not even thinking here. Take 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31, for example. Both refer to the second coming of Christ.

No they do not. 1 Cor 15 and Matthew 24:29-31 are the coming of Christ for the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God. Jesus will send His angels to gather elect at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets 1 Thes 4 is the coming of Jesus for the Church. The Lord Himself will come for the bride. Two completely separate comings.

You think those are speaking of entirely different events. Why?

Yes those are separate comings. The Church is in heaven as kings and priests in Rev 5 before the seals are opened. The other event is the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God.

They don't contain all the same details, but does one passage contain any details that contradict what is written in the other? No. So, what basis do you have for concluding that they are talking about entirely different events?

I have not seen one single poster that understands the order of Revelation. If you understood the order of Revelation you would see that everything fits together perfectly. We don't need to make anything up. Just read what the Word says. No priveat interpretation is needed nor wanted.