Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING

[Episkopos]

At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers.
There was always a loose end somewhere.

I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere.
And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny I had inflicted myself with.

I finally realized that I needed to leave some room for faith.
To live with some mystery. To admit that I didn't have ALL the answers.

This follows-up on my previous topic:

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

Which was a follow-up to yet another topic.

Christianity as a Closed System

This is an extension of a previous topic. https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/theistic-agnosticism-the-honesty-to-admit-we-dont-know-everything.53916/ As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system. Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO...

www.christianityboard.com

While we can't know everything....we can know all things pertaining to salvation, and God's ways regarding us.

No one knows the future besides what is prophesied in the bible. But we can know the sign of the times and situate ourselves properly in the world..with the help of the Holy Spirit.

What we seem to lack the most is self-knowledge. We don't see our true condition before God. So we tend to elevate ourselves by giving ourselves the benefit of the doubt even as we condemn others who don't conform to our way of thinking.

And how much our way of thinking has been adopted through a religious indoctrination?

 

[St. SteVen]

I dont care about drugs anymore.

Make no provision for the flesh. (Romans 13:14)

Everything has to go.
No drugs, no paraphernalia, no drug containers, no lighter, no matches, etc.

All gone.

If you can't do it, get some help.
It has to be disposed of in such a way that you will never find it again.

 

[St. SteVen]

And how much our way of thinking has been adopted through a religious indoctrination?

Great post, thanks.
I am currently questioning everything.
Deciding what to keep, and what to toss.

 

[MatthewG]

Bad attitude

Anger

Wrath

Malice

“If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; when the Christ — our life — may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory. Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth — whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry — because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience, in which also ye — ye did walk once, when ye lived in them; but now put off, even ye, the whole — anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking — out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices, and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him; where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman — but the all and in all — Christ. Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you — so also ye; and above all these things, [have] love, which is a bond of the perfection, and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭15‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Colossians 3:1-15 If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, for ye did die, and y | Young's Literal Translation 1

If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, for ye did die, and y

bible.com

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Made yesterday @St. SteVen

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Also, that parable has many meanings, but "losing salvation" isn't one of them

Any meaning in scripture debunking your doctrine is never a possible “meaning” of scripture…

Of course…

 

[MatthewG]

Oh what was your sound cloud again ill give you a follow @St. SteVen.

I also make songs and rap,

BandLab - Make Music Online

The cloud platform where musicians and fans create music, collaborate, and engage with each other across the globe

www.bandlab.com

I was posting them on soundcloud but stopped it was to much effort.

@Behold what is your stuff? If you got any for us to look at friend.

 

[Episkopos]

Great post, thanks.
I am currently questioning everything.
Deciding what to keep, and what to toss.

I think a proper balance is the most difficult thing to accommodate. As humans we tend to go from one extreme to the other.

Either we condemn basically everyone to hell...or else we see all being saved.

But God's ways are more nuanced than that. He has a place for the saints...but also the righteous. He has a place of destruction in the lake of fire but also of a perpetual wandering in outer darkness.

Most believers think salvation is the end of the race. But there are both good and bad outcomes even inside salvation. There are both vessels of honour AND dishonour. And no one seems to be paying any attention to this.

 

[St. SteVen]

Oh what was your sound cloud again ill give you a follow @St. SteVen.

You might enjoy this one. Exposes the lies.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Fdevil-talkin

 

[Michiah-Imla]

There are both vessels of honour AND dishonour.

There are saved and lost.

They are described in different words in different ways, but it’s all just two groups and two final destinations.

That’s what the scriptures reveal as far as I can discern.

 

[MatthewG]

Not to shabby, @St. SteVen thats that devil there talking.

 

[MatthewG]

@St. SteVen you might like this

BandLab - Make Music Online

The cloud platform where musicians and fans create music, collaborate, and engage with each other across the globe

www.bandlab.com

Its called why did the religous pharisees hate on jesus? - Explict warning

 

[Behold]

Im clean dawg. Woof woof.

I dont care about drugs anymore.


Cya. @Behold.

ok then.

 

[Episkopos]

There are saved and lost.

They are described in different words in different ways, but it’s all just two groups and two final destinations.

That’s what the scriptures reveal as far as I can discern.

Out of the same lump...

You are only seeing the half of it.

There is life AND death AND blessing AND cursing. (Get out the calculator.) (Deut. 30:15)

טו רְאֵה נָתַתִּי לְפָנֶיךָ הַיּוֹם, אֶת-הַחַיִּים וְאֶת-הַטּוֹב, וְאֶת-הַמָּוֶת, וְאֶת-הָרָע.

Notice the definite article before each category. The "et" article gives them all equal value...and keeps them separate.

There are 4 final destinations according to Jesus. (Rev. 22:11) Blessing and cursing (honour and dishonour) come in the first resurrection. Life and death at the GWT which is the second resurrection.

With both winners and losers in each of the two resurrections ...that makes 2 x 2 = 4

Simple math really.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Could a person actually experience "New Life in Christ" without putting on a "New Nature"?
Or are you referring to those who walked away? The reprobate?

The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one.
He doesn't stop until He finds them, and carries them back to the fold.
I think that even in reprobation, it is God's decision, not ours. IMHO

Basically, this is the principle that I see in this.
We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what only God could do in the first place.

I believe that everyone is already saved due to the finished work of Christ in the atonement.
But we each come into a relationship with God when he initiates it. Jesus said...

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Well, I'll be blunt. I'm a Predestinarian, OSAS. However, I also believe that Jesus died for everybody, and that everybody can experience the power of the Coming Age. That is, a person may put his faith in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and do miracles, as I suppose Judas Iscariot did. And yet they do not necessarily experience a New Nature. They experience New Spiritual Life, but they do not fully change. They do not pursue the love of God on a regular basis, but privately harbor their own independence from God.

I understand that this is controversial, but I'm a blunt person. I'll just throw out there what I really believe, not just from Bible doctrine, but also from personal experience.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

There are 4 final destinations according to Jesus. (Rev. 22:11)

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” (Revelation 22:11)

You are really reading too much into this…

HERE ARE THE TWO FINAL DESTINATIONS​

 

[Episkopos]

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” (Revelation 22:11)

You are really reading too much into this…

HERE ARE THE TWO FINAL DESTINATIONS​

View attachment 32783

Neither heaven nor hell are ever noted in the bible as eternal destinies. You have been indoctrinated into making a false duality.

In the bible it is "Heaven and Earth"...as these are PRESENT locations.

Come out of your dead religion and turn to God for His life.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Neither heaven nor hell are ever noted in the bible as eternal destinies

The great city, holy Jerusalem, descends from heaven. And those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life will enter therein for everlasting life.

And the lake of fire will be the abode of Satan and the unsaved for ever and ever.

Come out of your dead religion and turn to God for His life.

I follow what the holy Bible says, not dead religion. You assume too much…

 

[Episkopos]

The great city, holy Jerusalem, descends from heaven. And those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life will enter therein for everlasting life.

And the lake of fire will be the abode of Satan and the unsaved for ever and ever.



I follow what the holy Bible says, not dead religion. You assume too much…

So then you claim to love as Jesus does? You claim to raise the dead and heal the sick? You claim to walk as Jesus walked?

The bible is based on law. But the law can't help us fulfill it. You ca TRY to follow the bible...but the bible points to a life empowered by grace....resurrection life and power. Does the bible give you that? Or do you need to go to God?

Within the bible it says...the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Do you follow that?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Within the bible it says...the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Do you follow that?

Within the Bible it also says…

“…ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit…” (1 Peter 1:22)

The word of God (the Bible) and the Spirit go hand in hand.

The letter kills those who walk in unrighteousness.

“…do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?” (Micah 2:7)

 

[MatthewG]

“Do we begin again to recommend ourselves, except we need, as some, letters of recommendation unto you, or from you? our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men, manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart, and such trust we have through the Christ toward God, not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency [is] of God, who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive. | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (YLT98) | Download The Bible App Now

who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

bible.com