Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING

[St. SteVen]

But I'm no longer intimidated by the fact Christians have disagreed on things throughout the centuries. For those willing to persevere, the answers are there. Certainly, not all will agree. But you can indeed get satisfactory answers.

Great testimony. Thanks for sharing.
I wanted to comment on your closing paragraph above.

Some of the answers we arrive at disagree with the answers others have arrived at. (or seem to)
I have made it my practice to hear everyone out. (with the exception of noisome trolls) - LOL
It's more important for me to understand the other person than to "correct" them to my understanding.

 

[Behold]

God normally wants to take us through a process in learning, with the process

There is for each Born again Christian the "course", and you learn a lot of lessons on this course.
Paul talks about his "course"...>He said i have "finished by course".

There is also, to be taught, and you learn much that way.
That is the best EXPERIENCE, for the new believer, as that way you can learn in a few months, what it would have taken life experience to show you in maybe 40 yrs.
Also, learning by being taught through an experienced teacher, can keep you from making mistakes that can ruin your life, till you die.

 

[Nancy]

Nonsense.
No one chooses to go to hell. (as described by the church)
You have provided the "blame the victim" apologetic.

Hi St, Steven!
I do understand where you are coming from. But (IMHO) when God say's "Choose this day whom you will serve" is the real decision as to who is our true father. There will never be a time that I do not struggle over burning in hell, into eternity in torture every second! Our God takes no pleasure in the punishment of evil people, say's the bible.

Of course nobody wants to go to hell but, it's not a choice OF heaven or Hell but of God or Satan.

I've never gone deeply into research on Hell, but have read many different ideas. The one that comes close is annihilation but, I am not at all sold on it...perhaps my human nature just want's to believe that. We will all one day find out or

 

[Behold]

It's more important for me to understand the other person than to "correct" them to my understanding.

Reader,

A real NT teacher.... is not going to bring you into "their understanding" they are going to bring you into the Apostle Paul's doctrine.
Always remember i told you that, so that you'll know a real one, vs, a false one.
Paul said, "be a follower of Me, as i follow Christ".
So, Listen, READER, to that verse, in your Teacher's teaching.
It has to be there, as Paul's Doctrine is "church Doctrine" Its "body of Christ" revelation for You.
Paul always talked about the Blood Of Jesus and the Cross of Christ, first and foremost.
Find that same "teacher" and listen to them, and the NT will open for you., more and more and more.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

A real NT teacher.... is not going to bring you into "their understanding"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Great testimony. Thanks for sharing.
I wanted to comment on your closing paragraph above.

Some of the answers we arrive at disagree with the answers others have arrived at. (or seem to)
I have made it my practice to hear everyone out. (with the exception of noisome trolls) - LOL
It's more important for me to understand the other person than to "correct" them to my understanding.

That shows a lot of wisdom and *spiritual* maturity! Thanks.

 

[MatthewG]

For myself i just wanna know what is truth and what is not truth… but not for myself alone but also let other people know the reality of the scope between our flesh and the spirit of God.

Maybe its selfish to search for truth?

But what else is there time for other than learning and growing in the knowledge of God and finding truth that is able to set you free from bondage from any religious group, that may or not really properlly feed their flock that comes to them.

That is my issues i guess; maybe its selfish to some…

There was 10 popular churches a friend of mine went to; and only 1 church was actually teaching from the word of God.

That is where you can learn, and atlest get some truth from going verse by verse and teaching from the aspect of what your readinf and the times of the time your reading about.

I dont know all the answers but a generally had idea of what is going on is a must.

A search for truth is not a bad thing from my perspective.
How we communicate that to others can be a problem.
Can lead to a clash of claimed 'truth".

Yes, communication on the internet tends to be lack luster. Especially in the prominace of Christians to some degree, it can happen right in front of you at a bible study, just by sharing something you believe. It's funny, but the thing is are you gonna love someone who differs from you? Even when they use the bible as their main points to suggest what they believe is true - without perhaps having an contextual understanding which is really important to any student who wants to lear.

All I can do is say, hey, I love you, and God loves you. Would it be better to say "HELL NO YOU CANT BELIEVE THAT! NO GOD SEND U 2 HELL! ... Garbage?"

Not from what I understand. The Spirit - causes heavenly bound things - and when truth does win it out - love rejoices in such things.

No, not the search... how open are you to challenging ideas?

That would be subjective towards any person and the only way to challenge ones 'ideas' is by the spirit, with the use of the Bible itself.

How are such things measured?
Is it not tribalism to judge another body of believers as not properly feeding their flock?
Are they wrong because they don't do it OUR way?

Just go in and walk into 10 different churches. Now are they Christian? Are they saved? Do they show love? I can't say for sure, Jesus said people would know that others are his disciples by their shown love. Now, when it comes to the importance of Growing in knowledge of the things of God I do find them of value. Some may not, some may just not want to progress in the proving ground - school of life - which all of us go through.

A proving ground where it is you.
And it is God.

Who will you serve? Who will trust? Will you condemn others? Will you judge others whom may not be exactly just like you?

Depends...

Seriously?
How was this determined?

It was done by going to the 10 most popular churches around the area that was lived in with-in the context of a few months gathering information with-in just going and seeing, apperently some where just rock shows, with a preacher up there just telling antidocal stories about whatever... and very little of the bible at all.

Only 1 church out of the 10 most popular churches was actually reading and teaching from the bible.

I remember going to a church that was like this for teengagers, with videos games and pools tables, and very little of the word after the concert was over, with a dash of prayer, and a see ya later.

I recommend verse by verse, actually. - LOL
Otherwise, who can you trust?

You can only trust God, You can not trust me, or anyone else. You are right, verse by verse studies are the best way to learn and stay on course and track.

Best advice: Eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Though you may like this as an advice, sometimes I just need milk to make more bones, and eat meat from time to time.

No one church has ALL the answers.

Nope. However, the Bible has answers to many peoples questions if they study it. Hard thing to do, to deny oneself to take such time.

Like medicine, churches are specialists in different areas.

Wouldn't say that churches are terrible. Go to church if you wanna go, I rarely do go but have thought about going and visiting random churches like I have before lately just to go and see the people. Not so much the word cause sometimes, it goes unheard... which really sometimes irks me.

 

[MatthewG]

I remember my own early work to obtain what Enoch did from God. Then after a 10-year period in darkness, God opened my eyes to my continual short coming. God knows it all, but me and others... what do we know of what we have believed that we have known?

Ro 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And faith...?

Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Give God the glory!

You remind me of how the holy spirit, and God himself are unseen yet to believe - the heavenly things are bestowed as gifts from the Father of lights, which causes us to slick back in our flesh to resist the temptations of murdering otherings. It's the heavenly gifts that should be strived for, which always lead to having love.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hi St, Steven!

Greetings to you, as well.
Welcome to the discussion. I would like to read your view on the OP.
This wasn't supposed to be a topic about hell. Shot myself in the foot on that one. LOL

I do understand where you are coming from. But (IMHO) when God say's "Choose this day whom you will serve" is the real decision as to who is our true father. There will never be a time that I do not struggle over burning in hell, into eternity in torture every second! Our God takes no pleasure in the punishment of evil people, say's the bible.

Thanks for understanding.
Yes, hard to fathom our Father God of mecry doing such a horrendous thing.

Of course nobody wants to go to hell but, it's not a choice OF heaven or Hell but of God or Satan.

No one chooses Satan either. (as described) IMHO

I've never gone deeply into research on Hell, but have read many different ideas. The one that comes close is annihilation but, I am not at all sold on it...perhaps my human nature just want's to believe that. We will all one day find out or

Careful...
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Christian Universalism. - LOL

"Danger, Danger..."

 

[MatthewG]

Hi St, Steven!
I do understand where you are coming from. But (IMHO) when God say's "Choose this day whom you will serve" is the real decision as to who is our true father. There will never be a time that I do not struggle over burning in hell, into eternity in torture every second! Our God takes no pleasure in the punishment of evil people, say's the bible.

You think about burning in hell all the time in your mind?

Come on nancy, Jesus has already paid for your sins - yes our flesh 'fooks' up, but God loves you, and that is last place anyone is going, because Jesus had the victory over that place my friend! I believe by faith, and that also the bible describes the doing away with hell. There is only two destinations, one for the faithless and one for the faithful, and it is not even dealing with hell anymore.

IT's either inside the kingdom or outside of the kingdom - - - rest easy in his victory.


(THAT MEANS THE POSSIBILITY OF PEOPLE REUNITING WITH FAMILY UP THERE IN HEAVEN IS POSSIBLE :O :O :O many dont like this possibility).

Think about helping others come to christ now in this life, and after this life, that is my hope anyway.

Of course nobody wants to go to hell but, it's not a choice OF heaven or Hell but of God or Satan.

I've never gone deeply into research on Hell, but have read many different ideas. The one that comes close is annihilation but, I am not at all sold on it...perhaps my human nature just want's to believe that. We will all one day find out or

Just read Revelation 21-22, and ask God and considering him the consuming fire that burns away darkness.

See if that don't help you. Cause you can't trust me. I will fail you.

 

[Nancy]

You think about burning in hell all the time in your mind?

Come on nancy, Jesus has already paid for your sins - yes our flesh 'fooks' up, but God loves you, and that is last place anyone is going, because Jesus had the victory over that place my friend! I believe by faith, and that also the bible describes the doing away with hell. There is only two destinations, one for the faithless and one for the faithful, and it is not even dealing with hell anymore.

IT's either inside the kingdom or outside of the kingdom - - - rest easy in his victory.


(THAT MEANS THE POSSIBILITY OF PEOPLE REUNITING WITH FAMILY UP THERE IN HEAVEN IS POSSIBLE :O :O :O many dont like this possibility).

Think about helping others come to christ now in this life, and after this life, that is my hope anyway.


Just read Revelation 21-22, and ask God and considering him the consuming fire that burns away darkness.

See if that don't help you. Cause you can't trust me. I will fail you.

Oh no Matthew, not at all. I did not say I "think" about it all the time but it is one of those doctrines that just keeps me wondering....

 

[St. SteVen]

Who will you serve? Who will trust? Will you condemn others? Will you judge others whom may not be exactly just like you?

Reminded me of this.

Romans 14:4 NIV
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall.
And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

It was done by going to the 10 most popular churches around the area that was lived in with-in the context of a few months gathering information with-in just going and seeing, apperently some where just rock shows, with a preacher up there just telling antidocal stories about whatever... and very little of the bible at all.

Only 1 church out of the 10 most popular churches was actually reading and teaching from the bible.

Churches like that typically have small groups and studies that meet during the week.

Wouldn't say that churches are terrible. Go to church if you wanna go, I rarely do go but have thought about going and visiting random churches like I have before lately just to go and see the people. Not so much the word cause sometimes, it goes unheard... which really sometimes irks me.

Oh my.

I remember a cold Sunday morning years ago when my car wouldn't start.
I borrowed a car to get my family to church. It was a priority. Still is.

 

[St. SteVen]

You think about burning in hell all the time in your mind?

LOL
I think she meant the burning in hell would be without relief. (no rest night, or day = every second)
Not that she thinks about it every second.

cc: @Nancy

 

[MatthewG]

Oh no Matthew, not at all. I did not say I "think" about it all the time but it is one of those doctrines that just keeps me wondering....

My apologies Nancy, I read really fast - Love you sister. Glad to hear from you and see you active.

Yes, some of it relates to earthly matters, which steven points out here.

Imagine being underneath a tyrant and you either submit to him, or DIE. (Nero from Rome),

In their mind they were tormented, with no rest night or day - back then they even had statues which made the "Ruler" Omnipresent...

Imagine that type of paranoia.

That is all I can offer as far as a historical premise.

LOL
I think she meant the burning in hell would be without relief. (no rest night, or day = every second)
Not that she thinks about it every second.

cc: @Nancy

 

[MatthewG]

Oh my.

I remember a cold Sunday morning years ago when my car wouldn't start.
I borrowed a car to get my family to church. It was a priority. Still is.

Perhaps a neighbor can help me, or my mother, or a job transportation system.

Sure Church is fine and everything, but it is not demanded commandment upon anyone. Do you love the differences? Are you able to respect the differences?

 

[St. SteVen]

Another related topic.

Christianity as a Closed System

This is an extension of a previous topic. https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/theistic-agnosticism-the-honesty-to-admit-we-dont-know-everything.53916/ As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system. Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for your time, see ya later @St. SteVen.

 

[St. SteVen]

That is all I can offer as far as a historical premise.

I was surprised to learn this as part of my journey.
UR is not a new doctrine. It was prominent in the early church.
Especially in the Greek-speaking eastern church. Four out of six.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

cc: @Nancy

 

[Nancy]

Perhaps a neighbor can help me, or my mother, or a job transportation system.

Sure Church is fine and everything, but it is not demanded commandment upon anyone. Do you love the differences? Are you able to respect the differences?

I too have stopped attending, but I was going more so for fellowship. After the last 3, it is over. Unless I happen to start visiting some country church's and find one that teaches sound doctrine...

I'm reading a book titled 'Will the Real Heretics Please Satan Up"...it is mostly about the 1st and 2nd century church. It was simple and all were on the same page. The "heretics" spoken about are those who organized huge expensive buildings, speak from their own opinions and leave nothing open to question, IOW-The mainline Evangelical church's of today. Back in Johns day, there was no sense of dogmatism. All were of one accord. Todays church's unless in small groups in homes, all learning and teaching from the bible only. That is what I would be very attracted to!
I can respect differences on some matters yes, but others I will never budge even though I would still love them and, let them know my own stance, kindly and gently...no one has ALL truth but The Lord, amen...

 

[Nancy]

I was surprised to learn this as part of my journey.
UR is not a new doctrine. It was prominent in the early church.
Especially in the Greek-speaking eastern church. Four out of six.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

cc: @Nancy

This is something that would take time and MUCH prayer to understand as, I take the word at face value. It is of course, very attractive yet...goes against everything I have been taught and everything I have believed. God knows the heart and Jesus is the ONLY way IMHO.
Now I have to do my best research to be able to understand where you all are at...and then, hopefully we can still respect one another, love one another and have peaceful disagreement or agreement! God will always be acknowledged FIRST and foremost...

Looking to get both sides and then compare the scripture verses for both. Give me time brother, I'm fair