Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING

[Episkopos]

Within the Bible it also says…

“…ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit…” (1 Peter 1:22)

The word of God (the Bible) and the Spirit go hand in hand.

The letter kills those who walk in unrighteousness.

“…do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?” (Micah 2:7)

Yes. The OT is based on righteousness. But you seem to not have gotten the memo about the available holiness through grace. You are stuck in obeying God in your own strength. This would be fine if that was all that was available to you.

The NT is based on true holiness...walking in the resurrection life and power of Christ. Have you heard the gospel yet?

or are you satisfied with being under the law?

No matter...we will walk at whatever level we have understood and experienced for ourselves.

 

[MatthewG]

“Do we begin again to recommend ourselves, except we need, as some, letters of recommendation unto you, or from you? our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men, manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart, and such trust we have through the Christ toward God, not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency [is] of God, who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive. | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (YLT98) | Download The Bible App Now

who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

bible.com

 

[dev553344]

At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers.
There was always a loose end somewhere.

I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere.
And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny I had inflicted myself with.

I finally realized that I needed to leave some room for faith.
To live with some mystery. To admit that I didn't have ALL the answers.

This follows-up on my previous topic:

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

Which was a follow-up to yet another topic.

Christianity as a Closed System

This is an extension of a previous topic. https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/theistic-agnosticism-the-honesty-to-admit-we-dont-know-everything.53916/ As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system. Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO...

www.christianityboard.com

God is infinitely intelligent and understands nature of things. It's no surprise that we don't understand everything. Cheers.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So then you claim to love as Jesus does? You claim to raise the dead and heal the sick? You claim to walk as Jesus walked?

The bible is based on law. But the law can't help us fulfill it. You ca TRY to follow the bible...but the bible points to a life empowered by grace....resurrection life and power. Does the bible give you that? Or do you need to go to God?

Within the bible it says...the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Do you follow that?

I don't fully know the context in which you state these things--it may have more justification than is apparent on the surface. However, spoken in public, it requires a public response.

1) Claiming to "love as Jesus does" does not require one to "raise the dead and heal the sick." To "walk as Jess walked" has to do with participation in his Spirit, which does not nullify the uniqueness of Jesus as a a sinless person, nor require us to be sinless. It doesn't requires individuals to give up their individuality, so that we have to exercise the same gifting that Jesus had. We may not all be called into a healing ministry, as the Apostles were.

2) The Bible is based on Law in the sense that God's universal law for Man to live in God's image is everywhere in Scriptures. This "Law," however, is not based on Legalism--I trust that's not what you meant?

You seem to imply by "Law" that Man cannot *fulfill* it. Yes, only Christ could *fulfill* the Law. But would you really claim that Israel was given the Law of Moses knowing they could not *obey* it? Would God really have wasted everybody's time?

As such, your reference seems to be to what Paul said was the incapacity of the Law of Moses to bring Eternal Justification. This never meant that Israel or Mankind is incapable of obeying the Law.

Paul only meant that obtaining Eternal Life could not come by the Law of Moses, since that Law was predicated on the need for Man to have his sins atoned for in order to be in fellowship with God. Under the Law there was a constant need for sacrifice and for purifications for sin.

And even more, the Law indicated that even with a relationship with God, Man could not, by a single sin obtain Eternal Fellowship, or Eternal Life, with God. Israel couldn't enter into the Holy of Holies in any final or comprehensive capacity as long as the veil of the Law stood. That was the Law representing Israel's incapacity to have Eternal Fellowship with God apart from the Atonement of Christ.

It had nothing to do with Man's incapacity to obey God's Law. He just couldn't obtain, by that obedience, Eternal Life apart from the redemption of Christ.

Only with Christ's Atonement would Eternal Fellowship with God be made possible. That's what Paul meant by the incapacity of the Law to be fulfilled by Man. It could only be fulfilled by Christ.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

But you seem to not have gotten the memo about the available holiness through grace.

You seem to be making wild guesses…

You are stuck in obeying God in your own strength.

What a whopper of a false statement…

are you satisfied with being under the law?

No, I’m satisfied in establishing the law through the Spirit!

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31)

 

[Episkopos]

You seem to be making wild guesses…



What a whopper of a false statement…



No, I’m satisfied in establishing the law through the Spirit!

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31)

If you are not strictly a letter of the law man, as you seem to be...why do you mock when spiritual things are discussed? Doing that smacks of not knowing anything beyond a human strength experience. I'm not denying that you have some understanding in your inner man. I don't think you see your own level of indoctrination that covers you with your outer man.

We can be just educated enough to believe we are fully informed and know things ...whereas we still don't understand the deeper truth and how things really work. We can grasp eternal things lightly even as we hold tightly to temporal things.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

why do you mock when spiritual things are discussed?

When have I done this?

Start to point it out to me with quotes so that I can understand how you’re coming up with this accusation.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think a proper balance is the most difficult thing to accommodate. As humans we tend to go from one extreme to the other.

Good point. The pendulum swing.

Either we condemn basically everyone to hell...or else we see all being saved.

Balance would be somewhere in between.

But God's ways are more nuanced than that.

Agree.

 

[St. SteVen]

Its called why did the religous pharisees hate on jesus? - Explict warning

Thanks for sharing.
I thought you deleted all the... _______ stuff.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, I'll be blunt. I'm a Predestinarian, OSAS. However, I also believe that Jesus died for everybody, and that everybody can experience the power of the Coming Age. That is, a person may put his faith in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and do miracles, as I suppose Judas Iscariot did. And yet they do not necessarily experience a New Nature.

Thanks for being forthcoming.

They experience New Spiritual Life, but they do not fully change. They do not pursue the love of God on a regular basis, but privately harbor their own independence from God.

How are such things measured?
- Did I "fully" change? (who can say?)
- Could I have changed more? (sure)
- Did I change enough? (who can say?)
Or...
- Did I pursue the love of God on a regular basis? (who can say?)
- Could I have pursued the love of God more? (sure)
- Did I pursue the love of God enough? (who can say?)

I understand that this is controversial, but I'm a blunt person. I'll just throw out there what I really believe, not just from Bible doctrine, but also from personal experience.

All good, no worries.
Knowledge plus experience brings wisdom. (eventually)

 

[Episkopos]

When have I done this?

Start to point it out to me with quotes so that I can understand how you’re coming up with this accusation.

Seeing we are on a good thread...about leaving room for faith...

Does your faith in God extend as far as believing that we can walk as Jesus walked without sin?

 

[Behold]

Most believers think salvation is the end of the race.

Salvation is Jesus.
Jesus is Salvation.......>He finished it on the Cross, by being it as the Blood Atonement.

The "race" you are confusing with Salvation is this...."Present your body a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service".

THAT is your "course">..... your "race"....... and that happens, because you have already received Salvation, if you are born again.
The race isn't your Salvation.. The RACE (the Course) is your Discipleship, not your Salvation.
You can't seem to be able to understand the distinction between SALVATION, that is what Christ has completed on the Cross, with what the born again DO..(Discipleship)..after receiving God's Salvation, who is Jesus their Salvation

You are teaching Discipleship AS Salvation, because you dont understand the distinction between Christ's Salvation, and your works.

The born again WORK, (Discipleship) because they have received "The GIFT of Salvation::::, already. = Born again.

 

[Behold]

, a person may put his faith in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and do miracles, as I suppose Judas Iscariot did.

You "suppose" too much and guess too much.
You really need to study.

Listen,

Judas never received the Holy Spirit. He did no Miracles.

Jesus said of Judas..>"one of you is A DEVIL".
That is Judas.

Also, Judas died before the Holy Spirit was send down from above, in Acts 2, and , he was already dead before Jesus first gave the Holy Spirit to the 11 Apostles, in John 20:22

 

[Behold]

There is life AND death AND blessing AND cursing. (Get out the calculator.) (Deut. 30:15)

That verse is Old Covenant, Old Testament, and given to Jews., and not to the Body of Christ.

"""""""In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments"".

Notice 2 Things..

First, if you do all that, and are not born again, you'll eventually die, and go to Hell.
Millions have tried to perform that verse as their SALVATION...., and went to hell when they died.

See, Gods NT Salvation, is not by works and law and commandments and self effort.
Its by "The Gospel of the GRACE of God".
The "Grace of God" is The Cross of Christ.... The Blood Atonement, which is the NEW Covenant.


2nd, here is the end result of doing all those "Deuteronomy 30: 15- 20" works...

"""That thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob,"""


So, its obvious that this OT verse, is not talking to the GENTILES or the "body of Christ".... in the New Testament.

 

[MatthewG]

Thanks for sharing.
I thought you deleted all the... _______ stuff.

Did you really listen to it?

Made 119 songs in 22 days, and eventually I finally stopped using the meth just recently. (3 weeks tomorrow).

It's whatever still alive and breathing man.

 

[St. SteVen]

Did you really listen to it?

Yes.
I couldn't have asked what I did if I hadn't, I suppose.

Made 119 songs in 22 days, and eventually I finally stopped using the meth just recently. (3 weeks tomorrow).

That's bad.
That's good.

It's whatever still alive and breathing man.

Sure, I get it.

 

[MatthewG]

What is that in your hand by the way St. Steven?

 

[Randy Kluth]

How are such things measured?
- Did I "fully" change? (who can say?)
- Could I have changed more? (sure)
- Did I change enough? (who can say?)
Or...
- Did I pursue the love of God on a regular basis? (who can say?)
- Could I have pursued the love of God more? (sure)
- Did I pursue the love of God enough? (who can say?)

Excellent questions--I've certainly asked these question of myself! And I don't know if there will be any completely-satisfactory answers. Ultimately, God is the Judge as to who is presently "Saved" and who is not. Some may not even believe one can truly claim to be "Saved" in the present life--it will be determined in the next life.

I happen to believe we can know we're Saved, whether or not we can become "Unsaved." I don't believe we can become Unsaved, but that remains to be proven, one way or the other. I do believe, based on my own system, that Nominal Christians can become "Unsaved," so to speak, although I don't believe they were ever really "Saved" to begin with.

I truly hate to discuss this subject because a close brother is borderline hostile with me when I discuss it--he's very "Arminian." At any rate, I tend to be a "blunt person," not wishing to avoid any topic whatsoever.

The importance of showing we have a "changed nature" is not just in the volume of good works we do, or in the number of times we "show God's love." Rather, it is in whether the love of God has penetrated our own heart so deeply that we have sacrificed our independence for dependence upon God in order to truly have it.

Anybody can show the love of God. But only the completely committed can "have it." They in effect become "good people," just as God is good. They are no longer carnal people, but participate in the goodness of God. They do not merely "copy Christ." More, they "receive Christ" and "put on Christ."

Granted, someone who "copies Christ" can look very much like they have "received Christ" and "put on Christ." But one can know if they have truly "changed natures" if they "become pure in spirit" and appear to be truly "good people." They truly *are* good people.

But some here have been concerned about my theology on Salvation by Grace. Let me just say this. People aren't saved because they are good people. On the contrary, in choosing to receive Christ they have received Salvation, and so become good people. They have chosen to change natures, and not just do occasional good things from Christianity. They adopt Christ on a permanent basis in order to become good people.

So I would say that the real determining factor in whether someone has truly been Saved is whether they've truly sacrificed having their own way in life for dependence upon the will of God, as revealed in Christ. Do they love to talk about Christ? Do they find it desirable to sacrifice their own carnal ways?

I admit this isn't something that can be easily proven one way or the other. God is the Judge over matters of Salvation. And unless we have it revealed to us, we cannot proclaim one either fully Saved or completely lost, a "child of the Devil."

 

[St. SteVen]

Excellent questions--I've certainly asked these question of myself! And I don't know if there will be any completely-satisfactory answers. Ultimately, God is the Judge as to who is presently "Saved" and who is not. Some may not even believe one can truly claim to be "Saved" in the present life--it will be determined in the next life.

The best way to "measure" salvation, IMHO, is to base it on the finished work of the Atonement on our behalf.
This sidesteps all the could'a-would'a-should'a questions about our standing with God.

 

[Behold]

People aren't saved because they are good people. On the contrary, in choosing to receive Christ they have received Salvation, and so become good people. They have chosen to change natures,

Lost people who are coming to Christ are not thinking about "changing natures".
Unbelievers, are not NT Bible students, ....and if they were, the Bible is under lock and key as its "spiritually discerned" and they are not Of God's Spirit yet, so, its ChineseGreek to them.
They have not learned how to speak Christainese, yet.
That comes later, after they are Saved. . as THEN they can go on forums like this one, and try to "sound like a Spiritual Minister who is revealing the word of Gawd"....",
But not yet..
As currently, They are just sinners, enjoying sin. Loving it. To them, fornication and child molesting and staying high is as "divine" as it gets last night, all night long.
See, Some 19 yr old kid who was just stoned to the bone for 7 hrs, laying in bed on a Saturday night listening to AC/DC's Bon Scott singing """we're on the Highway to Hell.........the Highway to Hell, we're on the Highway to HELLLLLLLLLL"""" has no clue as to what you are making up now Randy, when you say they will know about "changing natures", the next morning when their Praying Mother takes them to Church and during the Alter Call they SEE THE LIGHT = as the Holy Spirit reveals Christ AND their need of Salvation.... and they give God their Faith.
They know nothing about "divine nature" and "infilling" and imputed righteousness, and being Translated from Darkness to Light... and 100 other Theological concepts related to NT Soteriology.
They dont even know that they are mind blinded by the Devil, while they are HIGH as a KITE on a Saturday night, lest the Light of the gloriousl Gospel of Christ would have shined into them long before Sunday's Salvation day arrived for them.