I truly enjoy having these discussions, and I'm not opposed to engaging in rowdy, but civil debates. What I find troubling is when the discussion devolves into name calling and false accusations, (which we are ALL guilty of) especially from those who are mostly familiar with the Biblical doctrine one endorses.
Sure. The discussion between you and me hasn't included any name calling or false accusations. I can deal with false accusations if someone just mistakenly misunderstands what the other said despite at least making an effort to understand it. But, if someone makes a false accusation purposely or because they didn't bother to pay close attention to what the other person is saying, then that bothers me.
I'm sorry my understanding of 1Co 15 is baffling to you.
Nothing to be sorry about. You are trying to explain the best you can, so it's possible that I just can't make sense of what you believe about this and there's nothing I can do about it. But, I'll read the rest of your post and see if I'm able to understand your explanation.
I was with you until you said, "The context here (vs 20) is the bodily resurrection of the dead." Paul doesn't mention the bodily resurrection of the dead until the last trump sounds.
I don't understand how you are coming to this conclusion.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
You don't think this is referring to Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead? I believe it clearly is.
This verse establishes the context of what Paul proceeds to talk about afterwards.
Christ is the firstfruits of those who have physically died in faith. Because physical death came by man (Adam), so too by man (Christ) comes the resurrection of the dead. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, through Him these dead saints have been spiritually resurrected to heaven.
What does being "spiritually resurrected to heaven" mean? I understand the concept of our spirits and souls going to heaven when we die, but what does being "spiritually resurrected to heaven" mean? A resurrection involves going from being dead to alive. The spirits/souls of physically dead saints don't get resurrected since they never die.
And are you somehow missing that Paul indicates that the dead in Christ would be resurrected "when he comes"? What do you think he meant by that? To me, he's clearly talking about the second coming of Christ. That is when the dead will be raised. They are not resurrected in any way, shape or form immediately after death.
Paul tells us that when a man physically dies in Christ, his/her body is sown a natural body, but it is raised a spiritual body. Because there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
If Paul were talking about the physical bodily resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds, why would he say when the body of the saints dies it is raised a spiritual body?
Paul tells us no such thing. Again, he taught that it will happen when Christ comes again.
Our resurrected bodies are sown mortal & corruptible, but in the resurrection they will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. That describes being raised physical not spiritual. Then the saints will once again be as in the beginning before sin and death entered in. Immortal & incorruptible physical body, with spirit, a complete living soul.
No, I believe you are completely mistaken about this.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is
sown in corruption; it is
raised in incorruption: 43 It is
sown in dishonour; it is
raised in glory: it is
sown in weakness; it is
raised in power: 44 It is
sown a natural body; it is
raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
What Paul was doing here in this passage was contrasting the "natural body" that we currently have with the "spiritual body" that we will have one day. What you seem to be missing is that he was not contrasting a physical body with a spiritual body, but rather was contrasting a natural body with a spiritual body. Jesus had a spiritual body after being resurrected and, yet, He could eat food and be touched and so on. So, a spiritual body does not imply that it's completely non-physical.
So, what Paul was doing there was contrasting our current mortal, corruptible, dishonorable, weak, natural bodies with the immortal, incorruptible, glorious, powerful and spiritual bodies we will have when Jesus comes again. I highlighted the descriptions of our current bodies in red in contrast with the description of the bodies we will have in blue to show how Paul was contrasting the two in verses 42-44.
So what does Paul mean when he says, there is both a natural body (physical/flesh/bone) and a spiritual body (heavenly/celestial/of heaven)? Christ as the firstfruits of them that slept redeemed them from physical death, spiritually. IOW they were raised spirit beings, to be as the angels of God in heaven, where they can die no more (Mt 22:30). This is a depiction of the first resurrection man must have part in to overcome the second death. These who died in faith before Christ came waited in the grave (Abraham's bosom Lu 16:22) for Christ to come and take them with Him to heaven. That's why Paul was anxious to be absent from his body and present in heaven with the Lord (2Cor 5:6-8).
While I, of course, agree with you on how someone has part in the first resurrection, that is simply not what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. Again, he's talking about something that will happen "when he comes" (1 Cor 15:22), which is a reference to when Jesus comes again in the future.
Being made alive in Christ, in our own order for each who in physical life have part in the resurrection life of Christ, the first resurrection, are spiritually raised through the presence or coming (parousia) of Christ through His Spirit in us.
You're missing that Paul indicates that the dead in Christ are all made alive at the same time "when he comes". That lines up with what Paul taught later in the chapter as well as in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Why wouldn't you use these other scriptures to aid your understanding of 1 Cor 15:20-23? The order Paul gave has to do with the fact that Jesus was the first to be bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality. Next in order is not each person individually when they die, but rather all of the dead in Christ being bodily raised unto bodily immortality "when he comes".
I believe your understanding of the word "parousia" is flawed. It's not a reference to the coming of Christ through His Spirit in us. It's a reference to His future second bodily coming from heaven.
