I suspect the two witnesses will go right directly to the head of the beast like Moses and Aaron did with Pharoah. That they are killed in Jerusalem should be another pointer for us about where the headquarters of false messiah will be.
Two witnesses 2+2=2?
- Thread starter Ridgerunner
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Got plenty of time to deal with him... besides not really wanting to spend even an extra moment in his presence, and rather not give him the time of day. Much more interested in righting some wrongs that governments do and fixing the true boundaries of Israel as well as getting rid of the palestines within their boarders, if still needed. Also much time is needed in this country as this government has run amok. Justuice is above the courthouses but it does not reside inside. This government has opointed itself the dominating force of the world yet political parties lie helter skelter to get into office then continue that campaign to remain in office... knowingt this what can one expect but dishonesty in its actions as well? Land of the Free and home of the brave??? freedom only applies to those in government office and bravery only to the common citizen willing to fight for a country that is likely to deny them if injured.
The scripture does not say they will be killed in Jerusalem.
The two witnesses have no order or desire to save the beast. But the rebel church who speaks in Gods name is a different story. They are sent to the church. They were given a reed as unto a rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. Everyone will be measured very soon.
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
7 As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "
.
Yes it does, in Rev.11:8 as written, for Jerusalem is where Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.
Rev 11:8 ( ESV )
" and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified "
A word added... " symbolically " I have noticed in my times of research the alterations included in the many differently translated Bibles and have always had problems with that. Did not Eve do that concerning the apple? Although, here it does not seem an error has been included. the part where is says; where the Lord was crucified does tell the place where the witnesses are slain.
Another example of scripture alteration is where... I believe it was Son of Man claimed the beast is given a mortal wound by a sword. That was not scriptural as I remember no scripture where it defines how the beast's wound is administrated.
" and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified "
A word added... " symbolically " I have noticed in my times of research the alterations included in the many differently translated Bibles and have always had problems with that. Did not Eve do that concerning the apple? Although, here it does not seem an error has been included. the part where is says; where the Lord was crucified does tell the place where the witnesses are slain.
Another example of scripture alteration is where... I believe it was Son of Man claimed the beast is given a mortal wound by a sword. That was not scriptural as I remember no scripture where it defines how the beast's wound is administrated.
In some Bibles it defines the Abomination of desolation taking place at te same time as when the Daily Sacrifice is stopped. That is a translation error of scripture. In the JKV it simply claims the beast does both. In all the diverse Christian Bibles I have researched scripture clearly tells there is exactly 1,290 between thes two events. This is one of my reasons for using KJV.
I'm not sure you're reading that Dan.12:11 verse correctly. The ending of the daily sacrifice and setting up of the abomination occurs at the same time, at the middle of the final "one week".
Dan 12:7-12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him That liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
This next verse 11 is to be understood in context of the timing mentioned above in bold... i.e., 3.5 years and then the end.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)
So the meaning is from the time the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination set up to the finish, shall be 1290 days. That means 1260 days + 30 days. Recall to finish the 70 weeks anointing the most holy and cleansing of the sanctuary is included, which is pointing to the establishing of the temple of Ezekiel 40-43 (Christ's Milennium temple).
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app90.html
Veteran wrote:
" I'm not sure you're reading that Dan.12:11 verse correctly. The ending of the daily sacrifice and setting up of the abomination occurs at the same time, at the middle of the final "one week". "
The above link went to ESV not KJV...
" Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that zthe regular burnt offering is taken away and athe abomination that makes desolate is set up, there
shall be 1,290 days. "
KJV calls it the Daily Sacrifice not regular burnt offering. Also, it merely contends he does both nott that he does both at the same time and that there is 1,290 between the two events. However one must understand the significance of the 1,290 is between the two events. Making the taking away of the Daily Sacrifice 30 days before Tribulations begins. This also allowws the cleansing of the Tmple to be the cleaning of the Temple because the Jews have just figured out that Beast they allowed in ther Temple and in their inner-sanctum, is not their messiah. So, due to the Beast being allowed into the Temple and into the inner-sanctum... they certainly need to cleanse it. And that cleansingg takes place 2300 days after the Daily Sacrifice was started.
Now, because this beast attempts to make / force Israel into something the Jews will not do...like accepting a mark... The Jews kick the Beast out.
Thats my tail and I'm sitting on it.
" So the meaning is from the time the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination set up to the finish, shall be 1290 days. That means 1260 days + 30 days. "
yeah, Vet, that is what i come up with also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ) - " The ending of the daily sacrifice and setting up of the abomination occurs at the same time, at the middle of the final "one week". "
2) - " So the meaning is from the time the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination set up to the finish, shall be 1290 days. That means 1260 days + 30 days. "
Both those ideas 1 & 2 being correct makes no sense to me...
" I'm not sure you're reading that Dan.12:11 verse correctly. The ending of the daily sacrifice and setting up of the abomination occurs at the same time, at the middle of the final "one week". "
The above link went to ESV not KJV...
" Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that zthe regular burnt offering is taken away and athe abomination that makes desolate is set up, there
shall be 1,290 days. "
KJV calls it the Daily Sacrifice not regular burnt offering. Also, it merely contends he does both nott that he does both at the same time and that there is 1,290 between the two events. However one must understand the significance of the 1,290 is between the two events. Making the taking away of the Daily Sacrifice 30 days before Tribulations begins. This also allowws the cleansing of the Tmple to be the cleaning of the Temple because the Jews have just figured out that Beast they allowed in ther Temple and in their inner-sanctum, is not their messiah. So, due to the Beast being allowed into the Temple and into the inner-sanctum... they certainly need to cleanse it. And that cleansingg takes place 2300 days after the Daily Sacrifice was started.
Now, because this beast attempts to make / force Israel into something the Jews will not do...like accepting a mark... The Jews kick the Beast out.
Thats my tail and I'm sitting on it.
" So the meaning is from the time the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination set up to the finish, shall be 1290 days. That means 1260 days + 30 days. "
yeah, Vet, that is what i come up with also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ) - " The ending of the daily sacrifice and setting up of the abomination occurs at the same time, at the middle of the final "one week". "
2) - " So the meaning is from the time the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination set up to the finish, shall be 1290 days. That means 1260 days + 30 days. "
Both those ideas 1 & 2 being correct makes no sense to me...
The 1260 days or 3.5 years period in question is the last half of Daniel's "one week", and it is the tribulation period. The 30 days and the 45 days is for after that 3.5 years (1260 days) period. The flow is 1. 1260 days; 2. 1290 days; 3. 1335 days.
You're trying to move those 1290 and 1335 periods up to the first half of Daniel's "one week". Won't work.
Here is my understanding of the 2 witnesses. The 2 witnesses are the House of Israel and the House of Judah, the H.of I and the H. of J, are the 144,000, the 144,000 are the "male son" or man child of Revelation 12, the man child is the Elijah that will prepare the way of the Lord before His 2nd coming, much as John the Baptist did the first time. The man child (2 witnesses) ascend into Heaven just before the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the third woe, the third woe is the casting down of Satan. When he is cast down, the 2nd half of the tribulation (which is the Great Tribulation) will begin and the lukewarm "Christians" will be tested, tried and purified. Some will choose poorly though.
Ok, Elle,
But.... the 2 witnesses are gentiles they are alive today, they are two people.
Veteran wrote: " The 1260 days or 3.5 years period in question is the last half of Daniel's "one week", and it is the tribulation period. The 30 days and the 45 days is for after that 3.5 years (1260 days) period. The flow is 1. 1260 days; 2. 1290 days; 3. 1335 days. "
According to that you have Tribulation lasting more than 7 years it seems.
My understanding is... from the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the setting of the cornerstone is 1.260 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the stopping of the Daily sacrifice is 1,290 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going forward to Armageddon is 1,260 days.
But.... the 2 witnesses are gentiles they are alive today, they are two people.
Veteran wrote: " The 1260 days or 3.5 years period in question is the last half of Daniel's "one week", and it is the tribulation period. The 30 days and the 45 days is for after that 3.5 years (1260 days) period. The flow is 1. 1260 days; 2. 1290 days; 3. 1335 days. "
According to that you have Tribulation lasting more than 7 years it seems.
My understanding is... from the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the setting of the cornerstone is 1.260 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the stopping of the Daily sacrifice is 1,290 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going forward to Armageddon is 1,260 days.
Hi Terry,
You said:
"Ok, Elle,
But.... the 2 witnesses are gentiles they are alive today, they are two people."
Where does scripture say they are gentiles? You assume they are gentiles and 2 people and in all fairness you could say the same about me when I say they are the 144,000. However, I have studied this area quite aggressively and am very comfortable with my understanding. How did Yeshua send out the disciples? By two, just as he will send out the 144,000.
"Veteran wrote: " The 1260 days or 3.5 years period in question is the last half of Daniel's "one week", and it is the tribulation period. The 30 days and the 45 days is for after that 3.5 years (1260 days) period. The flow is 1. 1260 days; 2. 1290 days; 3. 1335 days. "
According to that you have Tribulation lasting more than 7 years it seems."
Not sure if this part is for me or Veteran, but the 144,000 are sealed before the trumpets are sounded. These 144,000 are the 2 witnesses that prophesy for 1260 days. The Beast who comes up out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet is the one who kills them, (notice the sealed are still on earth at the 5th trumpet) sometime after the 5th, but before the 7th trumpet. When they ascend, Satan descends. The 7th trumpet is the third woe, the casting down of Satan and Yeshua taking control. He attempts to go after the woman who heeded the preaching of the 144,000, but the woman has a place prepared for her for 3.5 years. Satan then goes after the remnant of her seed, the lukewarm Christians. If the woman is protected for 3.5 years then how many years would that give Satan to go after the remnant of her seed? The same 3.5 years that the woman is protected. The tribulation is 7 years, but the GREAT TRIBULATION is only 3.5 years, the last 3.5 years of the whole 7 years. The first 3.5 are to prepare the people for Yeshua's coming, the last 3.5 years are for trying, testing and purifying the lukewarm Christians of Revelation 3:15-19. Just like God allowed Satan to test Job, he will do so again, but on a much larger scale.
"My understanding is... from the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the setting of the cornerstone is 1.260 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the stopping of the Daily sacrifice is 1,290 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going forward to Armageddon is 1,260 days."
My understanding is the Abomination of Desolation is set up after the preaching of the 144,000. Giving those who heeded the preaching of the 144,000 a small window of opportunity to flee, 30 days.
You said:
"Ok, Elle,
But.... the 2 witnesses are gentiles they are alive today, they are two people."
Where does scripture say they are gentiles? You assume they are gentiles and 2 people and in all fairness you could say the same about me when I say they are the 144,000. However, I have studied this area quite aggressively and am very comfortable with my understanding. How did Yeshua send out the disciples? By two, just as he will send out the 144,000.
"Veteran wrote: " The 1260 days or 3.5 years period in question is the last half of Daniel's "one week", and it is the tribulation period. The 30 days and the 45 days is for after that 3.5 years (1260 days) period. The flow is 1. 1260 days; 2. 1290 days; 3. 1335 days. "
According to that you have Tribulation lasting more than 7 years it seems."
Not sure if this part is for me or Veteran, but the 144,000 are sealed before the trumpets are sounded. These 144,000 are the 2 witnesses that prophesy for 1260 days. The Beast who comes up out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet is the one who kills them, (notice the sealed are still on earth at the 5th trumpet) sometime after the 5th, but before the 7th trumpet. When they ascend, Satan descends. The 7th trumpet is the third woe, the casting down of Satan and Yeshua taking control. He attempts to go after the woman who heeded the preaching of the 144,000, but the woman has a place prepared for her for 3.5 years. Satan then goes after the remnant of her seed, the lukewarm Christians. If the woman is protected for 3.5 years then how many years would that give Satan to go after the remnant of her seed? The same 3.5 years that the woman is protected. The tribulation is 7 years, but the GREAT TRIBULATION is only 3.5 years, the last 3.5 years of the whole 7 years. The first 3.5 are to prepare the people for Yeshua's coming, the last 3.5 years are for trying, testing and purifying the lukewarm Christians of Revelation 3:15-19. Just like God allowed Satan to test Job, he will do so again, but on a much larger scale.
"My understanding is... from the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the setting of the cornerstone is 1.260 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going backward to the stopping of the Daily sacrifice is 1,290 days.
From the Abomination of Desolation going forward to Armageddon is 1,260 days."
My understanding is the Abomination of Desolation is set up after the preaching of the 144,000. Giving those who heeded the preaching of the 144,000 a small window of opportunity to flee, 30 days.
The Dan.12:11 verse is easy to get out of context if read by itself. That Dan.12:11 verse is part of the answer to the question asked back at Dan.12:8, with the question first being raised back at Dan.12:4 & 6. When a question is being presented it means to then look for the answer. So that chapter's topic flow about the end must be kept all the way to the end of the chapter.
Per the timeflow of Dan.9:27, the making of the "league" (covenant) happens in the "middle" of the "one week" (7 years). That means at the start... of the 1st 1260 days period.
At the middle of that one week, the sacrifice and oblation is ended, with abominations being overspread making it desolate (i.e., the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" idol).
The setting up of the abomination is what begins the latter 1260 days, or 3.5 years, i.e., the period of great tribulation. Our Lord Jesus confirms that order in Matt.24 and Mark 13 also. So does 2 Thess.2:3-4 and Rev.13 involving the time of false idol worship the beast sets up.
Then Christ's coming will end that latter 1260 days tribulation period, and 30 days after that the sanctuary will have been cleansed, and then to the 1335 days period those who remained faithful will be blessed. The 30 days and 45 days are extensions of the latter half 1260 days.
What you're apparently missing is that when the "abomination of desolation" is setup it REPLACES the sacrificial worship.
Dan 9:27 in other bibles like the ESV tend to depict the AoD as being at the same time as the Stopping of the DS, but there are 1,290 between them and the Covenant is made in one week but the confirming of the covenant made in another.
I cannot see how you cannot see that there are 1,290 days between the Abomination of Desolation and the stopping of the Daily Sacrifice.
The covenant allows the temple to be built... it ( the temple being built) therefore must take place before the inner-sanctum can be polluted.
Yes, the beast does both, just not at the same time. Now if you considered that the Beast confirms the covenant at the time of the Abomination of Deslation, I will agree. Howevcer to confirm it... it (the covenant) must first be made... and that takes place 1,290 days earlier. 30 days before that same covenant allows the corrnerstone to be set.
This seems to be an ESV problem.. and reason I continue to use the KJV. I had spent many hours and days fighting this scripture, undertsanding there must be 1,290 between these two events. The reference of the beast being revealed is not a time increment here as the two witnesses reveal this lawless person. The bible doesn not really come out point blank and tell that he two witnesses reveal the beast... however... God showed that fact to me. and its ok if you are skepticle.
I am trying to understand your view point Vet. Have yyou taken a look at the calendar I posted? Can you draft one simlar in style that depicts your understanding?
Dan 12:11 tells of th 1,290 days and refers to the Daily Sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation... if as you contend they take place at the same time... Is the begining of the 1,290 days when the A of D takes places and ends with what? or what starts the 1,290 days and endis with the A of D?
If I remember correctly from the start of the Daily Sacrifice to the cleansing of the temple is 2300 days...6.4 years Personally I expect the cleaning to take place after the A of D and right after the beast....now Satan... is rejected by the Jews. For when the Jews reject this beast they will know their sauctuary was polluted by him. And one can be pretty sure that after the 2 witnesses ascend to heaven and a tenth of the city is destroyed... the Jews will say to them selves... rut roh. dang. or do they say Oy? Now the two witnesses beegin their campaign either right before Tribulation begins or just after. I expect this to be just after... as the Beast is not strong enough to kill them, it will take Satan. However, if Satan takes the body of the Beast at the time of the mortal wound which is before Tribulation begins and has the "cerimony" for the beautification of that body in the inner-sanctum at the A of D.... then the two witnesses could begin before Tribulations begins and be killed befor the A of D...but I don;t think so, because it shows little continuity. See if that happened the Jews would reject the Beast before he is allowed in the inner-sanctum. Because the two witnesses reveal the beast... and they ascend to heaven in front of the Jews.. the Jews will know the 2 witnesses were right.
I cannot see how you cannot see that there are 1,290 days between the Abomination of Desolation and the stopping of the Daily Sacrifice.
The covenant allows the temple to be built... it ( the temple being built) therefore must take place before the inner-sanctum can be polluted.
Yes, the beast does both, just not at the same time. Now if you considered that the Beast confirms the covenant at the time of the Abomination of Deslation, I will agree. Howevcer to confirm it... it (the covenant) must first be made... and that takes place 1,290 days earlier. 30 days before that same covenant allows the corrnerstone to be set.
This seems to be an ESV problem.. and reason I continue to use the KJV. I had spent many hours and days fighting this scripture, undertsanding there must be 1,290 between these two events. The reference of the beast being revealed is not a time increment here as the two witnesses reveal this lawless person. The bible doesn not really come out point blank and tell that he two witnesses reveal the beast... however... God showed that fact to me. and its ok if you are skepticle.
I am trying to understand your view point Vet. Have yyou taken a look at the calendar I posted? Can you draft one simlar in style that depicts your understanding?
Dan 12:11 tells of th 1,290 days and refers to the Daily Sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation... if as you contend they take place at the same time... Is the begining of the 1,290 days when the A of D takes places and ends with what? or what starts the 1,290 days and endis with the A of D?
If I remember correctly from the start of the Daily Sacrifice to the cleansing of the temple is 2300 days...6.4 years Personally I expect the cleaning to take place after the A of D and right after the beast....now Satan... is rejected by the Jews. For when the Jews reject this beast they will know their sauctuary was polluted by him. And one can be pretty sure that after the 2 witnesses ascend to heaven and a tenth of the city is destroyed... the Jews will say to them selves... rut roh. dang. or do they say Oy? Now the two witnesses beegin their campaign either right before Tribulation begins or just after. I expect this to be just after... as the Beast is not strong enough to kill them, it will take Satan. However, if Satan takes the body of the Beast at the time of the mortal wound which is before Tribulation begins and has the "cerimony" for the beautification of that body in the inner-sanctum at the A of D.... then the two witnesses could begin before Tribulations begins and be killed befor the A of D...but I don;t think so, because it shows little continuity. See if that happened the Jews would reject the Beast before he is allowed in the inner-sanctum. Because the two witnesses reveal the beast... and they ascend to heaven in front of the Jews.. the Jews will know the 2 witnesses were right.
Maybe it's the 2300 days of Dan.8:14 that's confusing.
The subject of the Dan.12 chapter is about the tribulation events unto the end. That's the perspective Daniel is being given there with the question of Dan.12:6-8, the end of these wonders, and end of these things. So we must... keep that perspective that Daniel is given there and also has when interpreting that Dan.12:11 period to the end. That means the Dan.12:11 verse is about the LATTER half of the "one week" (or one seven). The event that latter period begins with is the end of sacrifices and setting up the abomination.
Then we can count back to discover the 2300 days of Dan.8:14, which its finish is about what event? The cleansing of the sanctuary. Here's another verse about that cleansing of the sanctuary for the finish...
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(KJV)
The 70 weeks prophecy is finished when it's time for that "... to anoint the most Holy". That's about the cleansing of the sanctuary, but it is AFTER the 70 weeks is finished. The 70 weeks are completed, and then... comes the time to begin the cleansing. So that means what for the latter half of the final "one week"? The latter half of 1260 days MUST be finished for that time of cleansing to begin.
Thusly, from THAT finish point of the end of that latter 1260 days period, count backwards 2300 days (2300 - latter half 1260 = 1040 days). That leaves 220 days back to the start of the 1st half of the "one week". It's like this...
Start of the "one week" (7 years)
220 days - "league" of 7 years made
-----------
Start of the 1040 days
-----------
(1st 1260 days period completed)
---------- = MID POINT OF THE "ONE WEEK"
"league" broken - End of sacrifice and abomination setup
1260 days to the finish - great tribulation
-----------------
Cleansing of the sanctuary
There's some event that will occur within the first 220 days of the first 1260 day half of the "one week". Since the 2300 days was given back in Dan.8:14 within the subject of the he-goat and ram prophecy, it may involve that pattern for the little horn/vile person (false messiah) coming to power by flatteries. Once the "league" of Dan.9:27- 11:23 is established to start the first 1260 day period, after 220 days is when some event will take place, and we probably won't know what it is until it happens.
Then after the 220 days, the rest (1040 days) of the first half 1260 days will continue to the mid point of the "one week".
At the mid point, the false one will end sacrifices, and then setup the abomination idol for false worship. It's when the idol is setup that the tribulation upon God's people will begin, the time, times, and an half period when the dragon is given power to try and force us to worship him and his image. That is the latter 1260 days half of the "one week". It's when God's two witnesses will appear in Jerusalem and prophesy for that 1260 days period.
At the ending of that latter 1260 days period, God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem, their dead bodies left laying the street for 3.5 days.
Then after 3.5 days the two witnesses are resurrected. And then in the "same hour" (Rev.11), the events of Christ's return begin. That will end the latter 1260 days half of the "one week", and seal up the vision of the 70 weeks.
Then will come the time for the cleansing of the sanctuary once Christ has returned. That's the 1290 days. Then 45 days after that to 1335 days, those in Christ who remained faithful are blessed.
That scripture Dan 8:14 differs from KVJ ..... it is more vague allowing a different understanding.
In the KJV is
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]13 [/sup]Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]14 [/sup]And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]this paints a different picture. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]How long is the vision .. meaning the span between the Daily Sacrifice and the sanctuary being cleansed is 2300 days it does not include when the Daily Sacrifice is stopped.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]According to ESV Dan 9:27 this can easily be understood as the Sacrifice is only stopped for one half of the week. not stopped altogether.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]You stil have not altered my perception.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]....[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]......you wrote: Then after the 220 days, the rest (1040 days) of the first half 1260 days will continue to the mid point of the "one week".[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"one week" which one week the one 30 days before Tribulations begions or the one during the Abominationn of Desolation[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]the one when the beast makes the coevnat or the one when he confirms it?[/background]
In the KJV is
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]13 [/sup]Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]14 [/sup]And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]this paints a different picture. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]How long is the vision .. meaning the span between the Daily Sacrifice and the sanctuary being cleansed is 2300 days it does not include when the Daily Sacrifice is stopped.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]According to ESV Dan 9:27 this can easily be understood as the Sacrifice is only stopped for one half of the week. not stopped altogether.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]You stil have not altered my perception.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]....[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]......you wrote: Then after the 220 days, the rest (1040 days) of the first half 1260 days will continue to the mid point of the "one week".[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"one week" which one week the one 30 days before Tribulations begions or the one during the Abominationn of Desolation[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]the one when the beast makes the coevnat or the one when he confirms it?[/background]
[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]What different picture brother? [/background]Don't you recognize those parts about "to give both the santuary and the host to be trodden under foot" vs. "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."? Don't you see the Rev.11:1-2 connection with that first part about the Gentiles tredding under foot Jerusalem for 42 months? And then that idea of the sanctuary being cleansed after that? What other period could... that be talking about other than the latter half of the "one week"?
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The whole vision Daniel was given is the 70 weeks events of Dan.9:24. Notice the statement of completion in it, and then after that the idea of the anointing of the most Holy (cleansing).
Once again, the time when the sacrifices end and the abomination setup is clear, per Dan.9:27. It's at the mid-point of Daniel's "one week". Not at any other.
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I'm not trying to alter what you want to see. I'm trying to show where to look and for what per the Scripture.
ESV
Dan.9:27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
The phrase "and for half of the week" means what? It's the mid-point of the "one week", after the 1st 1260 day half has ended.
At that mid-point he does what? "he shall put an end to sacrifice and offerring. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate". That part is about the "abomination of desolation" being placed. Notice it's on that same time of half the week, meaning the mid-point of the "one week".
What's the last part " until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator". The decreed end is Christ's coming, when He will pour out desolation upon that "desolator". Who is that "desolator"? It's the final Antichrist/false messiah.
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No, there's only "one week" mentioned in the 70 weeks prophecy by itself. It's that same "one week" of Dan.9:27, ESV or KJV, the translation doesn't change that.
There is no 30 day period mentioned occuring PRIOR to the tribulation in any of the Daniel Scriptures. I really don't know who gave you that idea, but it is wrong. Even with the Dan.12:11 verse you ought be able to see the difference from 1260 to 1290 and to 1335 there as written.
Vet, your user of the ESV bible differs from my use of the KJV. When you gave your outline you related events differently and withoiut clarity.... read mine and see the consice pattern..... And though I read others works much and studied much this I arrived personally.
you wrote:
Start of the "one week" (7 years) ------------- 7 years or days?
220 days - "league" of 7 years made -----------another 7 years or days?
-----------
Start of the 1040 days -------------begining of the Daily Sacrifice?
-----------
(1st 1260 days period completed)
---------- = MID POINT OF THE "ONE WEEK" -------Abomination of Desolation occurs?
"league" broken - End of sacrifice and abomination setup
1260 days to the finish - great tribulation
-----------------
Cleansing of the sanctuary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are discussing the time of the Abomination of Desolation in relationship to the Daily Sacrifive and the cleansing o the Temple's sanctuary, aslo the 7 day period(s) So I will use those terms....
Also, when is the covenant made and when is it confirmed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I contend....
2 ...........the Daily Sacrifice starts here -------------------2300 days before the cleansing oif the Temple...
.............1
3............0
.............1
0............0 DAYS MAXIUM
..............The "fist" 7 day period is here and Daily Sacrifice stopped...Covenant Made
0............30 Days later the Corner Stone is set...thus begining Tribulation
.............. this is exactly 1,290 before the Aboimination of Desolation 30 days later...
..............Tribulation begins here.................
..............1,
..............2
..............6
D...........0
..............D
A............a
..............y
Y............s
..............Here is the Aboination of Desolation Covenant Confirmed
S............during a period of 7 days...one week.....
..............1, .............right afterward the two witnesses are killed, lay dead 3 1/2 days and ascend to heaven
L............2 ............TEMPLE IS CLEANSED
...............6
...............0
...............D
...............a
...............y
...............s
...............Armageddon
In Daniel 12:11 KJV it clearly tells us there is 1,290 between the time the Daily Sacrifice is stopped
and the Abomination of Desolation is committed.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] Daniel 12:11
King James Version (KJV)[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]11 [/sup]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Exactly how are you getting around the 1,290 day span between the two events?
I still do not see your logic.[/background]
you wrote:
Start of the "one week" (7 years) ------------- 7 years or days?
220 days - "league" of 7 years made -----------another 7 years or days?
-----------
Start of the 1040 days -------------begining of the Daily Sacrifice?
-----------
(1st 1260 days period completed)
---------- = MID POINT OF THE "ONE WEEK" -------Abomination of Desolation occurs?
"league" broken - End of sacrifice and abomination setup
1260 days to the finish - great tribulation
-----------------
Cleansing of the sanctuary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are discussing the time of the Abomination of Desolation in relationship to the Daily Sacrifive and the cleansing o the Temple's sanctuary, aslo the 7 day period(s) So I will use those terms....
Also, when is the covenant made and when is it confirmed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I contend....
2 ...........the Daily Sacrifice starts here -------------------2300 days before the cleansing oif the Temple...
.............1
3............0
.............1
0............0 DAYS MAXIUM
..............The "fist" 7 day period is here and Daily Sacrifice stopped...Covenant Made
0............30 Days later the Corner Stone is set...thus begining Tribulation
.............. this is exactly 1,290 before the Aboimination of Desolation 30 days later...
..............Tribulation begins here.................
..............1,
..............2
..............6
D...........0
..............D
A............a
..............y
Y............s
..............Here is the Aboination of Desolation Covenant Confirmed
S............during a period of 7 days...one week.....
..............1, .............right afterward the two witnesses are killed, lay dead 3 1/2 days and ascend to heaven
L............2 ............TEMPLE IS CLEANSED
...............6
...............0
...............D
...............a
...............y
...............s
...............Armageddon
In Daniel 12:11 KJV it clearly tells us there is 1,290 between the time the Daily Sacrifice is stopped
and the Abomination of Desolation is committed.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] Daniel 12:11
King James Version (KJV)[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]11 [/sup]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Exactly how are you getting around the 1,290 day span between the two events?
I still do not see your logic.[/background]
Hi Terry, Your words: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Exactly how are you getting around the 1,290 day span between the two events?"
If you don't mind my stepping in I think I can clarify things for you. The problem lies in the way you're reading the verse. In your mind you're replacing the inclusive word "and" between the two highlighted phrases with the word "until". In other words, you're seeing the first highlighted phrase as point A and the second highlighted phrase as point B with 1290 days between these events.
Vet is saying the word "and" includes them together and they are both point A. Point B I believe in his theology is the resurrection of vs. 2. So he is saying there are 1290 days that start with the two highlighted phrases and culminate after 1290 days with the resurrection. I'm sure Vet will correct me if I'm wrong.
If you don't mind my stepping in I think I can clarify things for you. The problem lies in the way you're reading the verse. In your mind you're replacing the inclusive word "and" between the two highlighted phrases with the word "until". In other words, you're seeing the first highlighted phrase as point A and the second highlighted phrase as point B with 1290 days between these events.
Vet is saying the word "and" includes them together and they are both point A. Point B I believe in his theology is the resurrection of vs. 2. So he is saying there are 1290 days that start with the two highlighted phrases and culminate after 1290 days with the resurrection. I'm sure Vet will correct me if I'm wrong.
actually i need to edit this.. no i am not i am keeping "and" as it refers to two different things taking place one a the begining AND one at the ending.
Vet errs, there is no starting point unless that time span separates them.
I am not sure how you figure the verses contend some imaginary start point ior end point, when both beginning and ending are already provided.
culminate after 1290 days with the resurrection. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT... One must imagine the ressurrection being inclusive AND I am te one implying different words??? not at all and it also fits without imagining anything.
How doies it mke a complete sentence when one writes..... The Daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation take place 1,290 days before the --------------------- ! it lacks as a sentence and is not a completed sentence.
and what ressurredction? that happened near 2000 years ago
Do you mean " return "? as in Armageddon?b If so it would have been simple to say that.
==========================================================================
Lets do this again with even more input and this added info you can align as you wish (THE SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPETS)
so long as it does not disrupt the orginal flow. Just becareful they align with God's Word.
1T 2..............the Daily Sacrifice starts here -------------------2300 days before the cleansing oif the Temple...
.............1
3...........0
.............1
2T 0...........0 DAYS MAXIUM
..............The "fist" 7 day period is here and Daily Sacrifice stopped...Covenant Made
0............30 Days later the Corner Stone is set...thus begining Tribulation
.............. this is exactly 1,290 before the Aboimination of Desolation 30 days later...
3T ..............Tribulation begins here.................
..............1,
..............2
..............6
D...........0
4T ..............D
A............a
..............y
Y............s
..............Here is the Aboination of Desolation Covenant Confirmed
S............during a period of 7 days...one week.....
5T ..............1, .............right afterward the two witnesses are killed, lay dead 3 1/2 days and ascend to heaven
L............2 ............TEMPLE IS CLEANSED
. ..............6
. ..............0
6T ...............D
. ..............a
...............y
7T ...............s
...............Armageddon (is there a final trumpet? an 8th?)
actually I believe the 7 trumpets the seals being opened and the vials poured out should commence with revelation not just tribulation.
Vet errs, there is no starting point unless that time span separates them.
I am not sure how you figure the verses contend some imaginary start point ior end point, when both beginning and ending are already provided.
culminate after 1290 days with the resurrection. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT... One must imagine the ressurrection being inclusive AND I am te one implying different words??? not at all and it also fits without imagining anything.
How doies it mke a complete sentence when one writes..... The Daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation take place 1,290 days before the --------------------- ! it lacks as a sentence and is not a completed sentence.
and what ressurredction? that happened near 2000 years ago
Do you mean " return "? as in Armageddon?b If so it would have been simple to say that.
==========================================================================
Lets do this again with even more input and this added info you can align as you wish (THE SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPETS)
so long as it does not disrupt the orginal flow. Just becareful they align with God's Word.
1T 2..............the Daily Sacrifice starts here -------------------2300 days before the cleansing oif the Temple...
.............1
3...........0
.............1
2T 0...........0 DAYS MAXIUM
..............The "fist" 7 day period is here and Daily Sacrifice stopped...Covenant Made
0............30 Days later the Corner Stone is set...thus begining Tribulation
.............. this is exactly 1,290 before the Aboimination of Desolation 30 days later...
3T ..............Tribulation begins here.................
..............1,
..............2
..............6
D...........0
4T ..............D
A............a
..............y
Y............s
..............Here is the Aboination of Desolation Covenant Confirmed
S............during a period of 7 days...one week.....
5T ..............1, .............right afterward the two witnesses are killed, lay dead 3 1/2 days and ascend to heaven
L............2 ............TEMPLE IS CLEANSED
. ..............6
. ..............0
6T ...............D
. ..............a
...............y
7T ...............s
...............Armageddon (is there a final trumpet? an 8th?)
actually I believe the 7 trumpets the seals being opened and the vials poured out should commence with revelation not just tribulation.
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