Two witnesses 2+2=2?

[Raeneske]

You said a day for a year is only applicable where God's word shows it. But, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel doesn't do that. It is an understood prophecy, that a day means a year. As for your statement concering Daniel 9:2 -

Jeremiah 25:11 - And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 29:10 - For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Jeremiah did not have a day for a year applicable, it showed literal years. It is a day for a year, and not the other way around. So again, where is Daniel's 70 weeks stating explicitly a day for a year? It doesn't, it's implied, by studying scriptures.

You cannot claim that Ezeikal 4:6 was only for that prophecy, but then use a day for a year, in Daniel's 70th week. 1 week is 7 days. And that's where the supposed 7 year tribulation comes from.

There is another place, in which God's Word denotes the usage of a day for a year.

Numbers 14:34 - After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

This shows that it is common for God's prophecies for a day to equal a year.

Also, illogical time gap still inserted between Daniel's 69th and 70th week.

 

[tgwprophet]

Raeneske wrote: " This shows that it is common for God's prophecies for a day to equal a year. "

Common...yes, but...Babylon existed roughly 70 miles from Bagdad... Today it is in ruins.

Jeremiah 25:11 - And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

This means according to your understanding, that it would require re-building and then 70 more years at last. There is quite simply not enough time for that to take place. Meaning this event has already transpired long ago.

 

[Raeneske]

Raeneske wrote: " This shows that it is common for God's prophecies for a day to equal a year. "

Common...yes, but...Babylon existed roughly 70 miles from Bagdad... Today it is in ruins.

Jeremiah 25:11 - And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

This means according to your understanding, that it would require re-building and then 70 more years at last. There is quite simply not enough time for that to take place. Meaning this event has already transpired long ago.

Not %100 sure what you're getting at Terry. I understand that Jeremiah's event transpired long ago, Daniel 9:2 proves that, and that for 70 years Israel had served Babylon.

 

[tgwprophet]

Simply put, it means your understandng is in error, sorry.

Veteran, according to my pots I claim there is a one week stint by the Beast 30 days before Tribulation begins. In that one week period a covenant is made. Next begins the 7 year period of Tribulation and mid-point of the is another one week stint whereas the covenant is confirmed. For all those that do not see the first one week stint they will not think that is the Beast because it is not done in the inner-sanctum of a temple that has not been built. This would allow him to be dis-qualified as tthe Beast. And that gives him free reign for the next 3 1/2 years. just a thought as to my perspective.

 

[Raeneske]

Terry,

Please don't think i'm upset, i'm actually in a very good mood. But, would you please provide the biblical basis of my errors?

Also, my previous questions have not been answered (though they have not been distinctly aimed at you, more towards "anyone").

 

[Rex]

The day for a year idea is ONLY applicable to prophecy that shows to use it. In Dan.9:2, Daniel was studying the Jeremiah prophecy of their going captive to Babylon for 70 years. So that's the connection of the 70 weeks of years Daniel was given in that 9th chapter. In Ezekiel 4:6 it is emphatic to use a day for a year concerning only the prophecy given in that chapter. This does not mean we are to use that idea EVERYWHERE in God's Word as some try to do.

I have never formally heard the biblical debate for your statement. If I understand you correctly a day for a year only applies to what exactly? Danial 9?
I'm curious to know why teachers don't use it in Rev. Is it because most try to pack 90% of Rev into a seven year period and it simply doesn't fit. Or is it simply the popular opinion?

I'm with Raeneske, I believe he deserves an answer.

 

[veteran]

Dan 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
(KJV)

Dan 9:24-26
24 Seventy weeks (seventy sevens per Hebrew) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (sevens), and threescore and two weeks (sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks (sevens) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(KJV)

What's not to understand? Especially since those first two periods of the seven sevens and sixty two sevens have already been fulfilled, and they associate to the idea of the number of years Daniel was pondering in Dan.9:2 applied to the seventy sevens in Dan.9:24?



Ezek 4:3-6
3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
(KJV)

How is it not understood that God emphatically assigning of a day for a year FOR THAT specific prophecy given Ezekiel is for THAT specific prophecy?


In the Dan.9:2 example a day for a year assigning is not emphatic. However, we know the seventy sevens Daniel was given in Dan.9:24 literally mean seventy periods of SEVENS. We 'know' that because of the first two periods having already been fulfilled, with actual dates linked to their fulfillment.

Veteran, according to my pots I claim there is a one week stint by the Beast 30 days before Tribulation begins. In that one week period a covenant is made. Next begins the 7 year period of Tribulation and mid-point of the is another one week stint whereas the covenant is confirmed. For all those that do not see the first one week stint they will not think that is the Beast because it is not done in the inner-sanctum of a temple that has not been built. This would allow him to be dis-qualified as tthe Beast. And that gives him free reign for the next 3 1/2 years. just a thought as to my perspective.

Well, there's only a single "one week" period mentioned in the Dan.9:27 verse. And it is divided in that verse. Since the two previous periods are fulfilled (69 sevens), with each seven equalling a seven year period, that last "one week" must equal a seven year period also. What you're suggesting will not fit that prophecy as written in the Dan.9:27 verse.

I have to say it, even though it might stir you up, but you are heeding a doctrine of man and then trying to make the prophecy fit it, instead of heeding what's written first to know the difference.

 

[Raeneske]

Dan 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
(KJV)

Dan 9:24-26
24 Seventy weeks (seventy sevens per Hebrew) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (sevens), and threescore and two weeks (sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks (sevens) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(KJV)

What's not to understand? Especially since those first two periods of the seven sevens and sixty two sevens have already been fulfilled, and they associate to the idea of the number of years Daniel was pondering in Dan.9:2 applied to the seventy sevens in Dan.9:24?



Ezek 4:3-6
3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
(KJV)

How is it not understood that God emphatically assigning of a day for a year FOR THAT specific prophecy given Ezekiel is for THAT specific prophecy?


In the Dan.9:2 example a day for a year assigning is not emphatic. However, we know the seventy sevens Daniel was given in Dan.9:24 literally mean seventy periods of SEVENS. We 'know' that because of the first two periods having already been fulfilled, with actual dates linked to their fulfillment.



Well, there's only a single "one week" period mentioned in the Dan.9:27 verse. And it is divided in that verse. Since the two previous periods are fulfilled (69 sevens), with each seven equalling a seven year period, that last "one week" must equal a seven year period also. What you're suggesting will not fit that prophecy as written in the Dan.9:27 verse.

I have to say it, even though it might stir you up, but you are heeding a doctrine of man and then trying to make the prophecy fit it, instead of heeding what's written first to know the difference.

Excuse me, but Daniel 9:2 isn't referring to Daniel 9:24. Daniel 9:2 is referring to the 70 years prophecy that God gave Jeremiah. Daniel explicitly states that himself. What Daniel is saying is he understood that the 70 years were accomplished, or finished.

In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:2 KJV)

And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. (Jeremiah 25:11, 12 KJV)

For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. (Jeremiah 29:10 KJV)

Those 70 years were of the Destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel's 70 weeks does NOT refer to destruction, but to the rebuilding, and of the Messiah. But after those 70 weeks, after rejecting the Messiah, then they were to be destroyed. These are two different prophecies. So, Daniel wasn't saying that part of his prophecy was already fulfilled. In fact, his prophecy wasn't to begin until a specific command was given to them.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Daniel 9:25 KJV)

Now, please show me where it explicitly states that Daniel 9 needs to be a day for a year.
It doesn't. It's implied to use prophetic scripture in this prophetic book. Daniel 2 shows that with the first prophecies that this is a prophetic book.

Now, let's look at skme definitions, as you did:

Weeks

1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
a) period of seven days, a week
1) Feast of Weeks
B) heptad, seven (of years)

We see that the definition shows a period of 7, days or years, or just a week. But, It's obvious that a week implies the number "seven". How do you know that it is a day or a year though? Where is it explicitly stated that this prophecy is a day for a year? Nowehere, it is implied. Now, let's look at some other things.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:11, 12 KJV)

Days

1) day, time, year
a) day (as opposed to night)
B) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time
a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.)
d) time, period (general)
e) year
f) temporal references
1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow

The Word days here can mean days, time (which is a year), or just year. But, we know a day for a year prophecy is implied here also. But we know day means (1) where as week means (7). These are obvious facts. But where, does it explicitly state a day for a year in these prophecies? It doesn't it is implied to understand scripture.

As for Ezekiel, yes God assigned a day for a year for that specific prophecy. But it was not for ONLY that prophecy. We know that Daniel 7:23 puts a beast as a Kingdom. Does this mean in Revelation, a Beast has a different definition? No. It's understood that we are speaking in a prophetic language. Or what about Daniel 7:24, where a horn means king? It is ALL connected, when speaking of prophetic symbolism.

Prophecy of a man? Excuse me, almost no protestant believed that heresy until Scolfields (sp?) references in the Bible. Now THAT is a heresy of men, which is running rampant like the plague. But isn't that obvious, seeing as how most of the world is deceived in the end?

As stated, 70 weeks prophecy had to do with the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the Messiah.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

Daniel 9:24 outlines the many things that will have to happen. They had 70 "weeks" left to finish their sinning as a nation, and they were supposed to as well annoint the most holy (Jesus, the Messiah - literally, the "annointed one). We see in 9:25 that there are seven weeks for rebuilding the temple of Jerusalem. And then it says there shall be troublous times for sixty and two weeks. That brings us to 69 weeks. Next, it says after those sixty and two weeks (of troblous times, still after the 7 weeks as well) the Messiah shall come. This is the 70th week. And he shall be cut off, but not for himself. This is Jesus, who died, but not for himself, but for others. And after that the people of the prince would come and destroy the city (70 AD, the destruction of Jerusalem). And the end of that was to be a flood (of people) that would come and make war with Jerusalem to destroy it. And then it goes and continues about the Messiah saying that Jesus shall confirm the covenant with many for a week (That's the New Covenant, and for 7 years Israel explicitly was to be preached the Gospel). But in the midst of that week, he should cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. In the midst of the prophetic week, Jesus caused all the temple sacrifices and oblations to cease. This is when Jesus said "it is finished", meaning the sacrifices were ended, as he was "cut off" (died) but not for himself (the sins of others). And then Israel was to be desolate (absolutely destroyed in 70 AD).

Now, for Jesus's week, he did confirm the covenant with many for a week. He was baptized in 27 AD. He was cut off in the midst of that week, being 30 AD. Then, the stoning of Stephen in 34 AD showed how Israel had rejected the Gospel, and it was to be taught to the gentiles.

Now, for those who say Daniel's 70th week is in the future, there is not even a shred of Biblical evidence for such a thing. An illogical time gap was inserted between Daniel's 69th week and Daniel's 70th week, to bring about the 7 year tribulation period. Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy has already finished.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Your words: "Now, for those who say Daniel's 70th week is in the future, there is not even a shred of Biblical evidence for such a thing. An illogical time gap was inserted between Daniel's 69th week and Daniel's 70th week, to bring about the 7 year tribulation period. Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy has already finished."

You're right in that Dan. 9:24 doesn't specify a year for day but the historical facts bear witness. The verse says that "after seven weeks and sixty weeks Messiah will be cut off." History has proved that this part of the passage - "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem." was given by Artaxerxes in 444 BC. Here's the math.

Professor Harold W. Hoehner in his ``Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ'' explains in considerable detail: Using the [accepted] 360-day [lunar] year the calculation would be as follows. Multiplying the 69 weeks by seven years for each week by 360 days gives a total of 173,880 days. The difference between 444 B.C. and A.D. 33, then, is 476 solar years. By multiplying 476 by 365.24219879 or by 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 45.975 seconds, one comes to 173,855.28662404 days or 173,855 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes, 44 seconds. This leaves only 25 days to be accounted for between 444 B.C. and A.D. 33. By adding the 25 days to March 5 (of 444 B.C.), one comes to March 30 (of A.D. 33) which was Nisan 10 [Jewish calendar] in A.D. 33. This is the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. . . . As predicted in Zechariah 9:9, Christ presented Himself to Israel as Messiah the King for the last time and the multitude of the disciples shouted loudly by quoting from a Messianic psalm: `Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord' (Ps. 118:26; Mt. 21:9; Mk. 11:10; Lk. 19:38; Jn. 12:13). This occurred on Monday, Nisan 10 (March 30) and only four days later on Friday, Nisan 14, April 3rd, A.D. 33, Jesus was cut off or crucified (Idem, 128-129).

The highlighted part is when Christ "came" to fulfill the prophecy. Not at His baptism or the beginning of His ministry. So there is no partial 3 1/2 yr./half a week fulfilled.

This part of the passage has yet to be fulfilled - "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

and no this isn't speaking of Christ. The person who will "confirm the covenant" is the future Anti-Christ but in order to do that the temple or something similar will need to be rebuilt. It can not be proven scripturally that it was seven years from the crucifixion to the time Peter spoke with Cornelius. I believe their grace period concerning sacrifices, etc. extended to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, Your words: "Now, for those who say Daniel's 70th week is in the future, there is not even a shred of Biblical evidence for such a thing. An illogical time gap was inserted between Daniel's 69th week and Daniel's 70th week, to bring about the 7 year tribulation period. Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy has already finished."

You're right in that Dan. 9:24 doesn't specify a year for day but the historical facts bear witness. The verse says that "after seven weeks and sixty weeks Messiah will be cut off." History has proved that this part of the passage - "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem." was given by Artaxerxes in 444 BC. Here's the math.

Professor Harold W. Hoehner in his ``Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ'' explains in considerable detail: Using the [accepted] 360-day [lunar] year the calculation would be as follows. Multiplying the 69 weeks by seven years for each week by 360 days gives a total of 173,880 days. The difference between 444 B.C. and A.D. 33, then, is 476 solar years. By multiplying 476 by 365.24219879 or by 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 45.975 seconds, one comes to 173,855.28662404 days or 173,855 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes, 44 seconds. This leaves only 25 days to be accounted for between 444 B.C. and A.D. 33. By adding the 25 days to March 5 (of 444 B.C.), one comes to March 30 (of A.D. 33) which was Nisan 10 [Jewish calendar] in A.D. 33. This is the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. . . . As predicted in Zechariah 9:9, Christ presented Himself to Israel as Messiah the King for the last time and the multitude of the disciples shouted loudly by quoting from a Messianic psalm: `Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord' (Ps. 118:26; Mt. 21:9; Mk. 11:10; Lk. 19:38; Jn. 12:13). This occurred on Monday, Nisan 10 (March 30) and only four days later on Friday, Nisan 14, April 3rd, A.D. 33, Jesus was cut off or crucified (Idem, 128-129).

The highlighted part is when Christ "came" to fulfill the prophecy. Not at His baptism or the beginning of His ministry. So there is no partial 3 1/2 yr./half a week fulfilled.

This part of the passage has yet to be fulfilled - "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

and no this isn't speaking of Christ. The person who will "confirm the covenant" is the future Anti-Christ but in order to do that the temple or something similar will need to be rebuilt. It can not be proven scripturally that it was seven years from the crucifixion to the time Peter spoke with Cornelius. I believe their grace period concerning sacrifices, etc. extended to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Yes, history does bear witness of a day for a year. It also bears witness for 1260 days (which is years) as I stated in a post far long ago. However, history bears witness for the finish of Daniel's 70 weeks as well - Not for only 69 weeks and then an illogical gap insert.

And yes, Daniel 9:27 does refer to Jesus Christ, about the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Do temple sacrifices still matter in the Christian religion? No, they do not. Jesus caused them to cease. And then (afterwards) the people of the prince came and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. All of this has already happened. God specifically said himself 70 weeks (490 years) were determined upon Israel to finish the transgressions. He did not say over 2000 years were left for them as a Nation, he specifically spoke to Daniel through prophetic language marking and outlining the time they had left to finish with their transgression. Again, there is no basis for this time gap between the 69th and 70th week. History bears witness exactly to what God said (real history, not the lies Satan feeds to you in schools, etc). And he outlined 490 years. Not over 2000.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Let's take a closer look at this passage. I believe this prophecy should be taken "literally" and not symbolicaly as the fulfillments were literal. Jesus was literally "cut off" by crucifixion, however...(words in parenthesis mine)

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people ( Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Sin still continues, the nation has yet to be reconciled, they do not have everlasting righteousness as a nation. Vision and prophecy continued with Revelations and while Christ was anointed for His burial, He has yet to be anointed as King of Kings and Lord of Lords especially over the nation of Israel as King of Israel. None of this will be fulfilled until the Nation of Israel is reconciled with their King which will happen when the righteous remnant of Rev. 12:14 and the 144,000 watch His triumphal entry into Jerusalem after Armageddon, when Christ reclaims His throne.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: ( this was at His triumphal entry on an ass) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. ( I believe this is speaking of Nehemiah) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (crucifixion) (not Christ, the translators should have put a period there) and the people of the prince ( if you think this is Christ than "the people" need to be christians) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (christians did not destroy the city, Romans did) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant ( this isn't the "new covenant" as that is an everlasting one, not one limited to seven years. God's word here puts the gap between the 69th and 70th week. His dealing with the "nation" of Israel was suspended until the time of Jacob's trouble leading into the millennial era) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

[veteran]

Excuse me, but Daniel 9:2 isn't referring to Daniel 9:24. Daniel 9:2 is referring to the 70 years prophecy that God gave Jeremiah. Daniel explicitly states that himself. What Daniel is saying is he understood that the 70 years were accomplished, or finished.

In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:2 KJV)

70 years prophecy given Jeremiah that Daniel was studying, and then prayed about deliverance, and the angel appears and gives Daniel a 70 sevens prophecy about events to come in his future up to the time of deliverance? Pretty good association if you ask me!

No need to try and rehash the 70 weeks prophecy. It's already been done many times here already, with not that many following it as actually written, nor properly associating the 69 weeks portion that has already been fulfilled, with only the final "one week" period left as still our near future.

 

[Raeneske]

70 years prophecy given Jeremiah that Daniel was studying, and then prayed about deliverance, and the angel appears and gives Daniel a 70 sevens prophecy about events to come in his future up to the time of deliverance? Pretty good association if you ask me!

No need to try and rehash the 70 weeks prophecy. It's already been done many times here already, with not that many following it as actually written, nor properly associating the 69 weeks portion that has already been fulfilled, with only the final "one week" period left as still our near future.

All Daniel does is prove Jeremiah's prophecy, which came from God's word, true. He does not link the two prophecies together, as you are trying to in determinig a day for a year. Jeremiahs prophecy was explicitly stated as years Jerusalem would be carried away. That was explicit, and not prophetic language. And somehow, you are saying this explicitness shows that Daniel's language is prophetic. It makes no sense whatsoever.

This is why it is agreed that Daniel's language is prophetic, and that in this prophetic language, it is implied.

And as for the "rehash", no one can give me the biblical basis for the 69th week, and the 70th week being split up. It is not even implied in scripture. In prophetic language, "70 weeks" are determined for Israel. Once again I would like to ask, where is the Biblical basis for the division of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. There is none. 490 years were given to them from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem, as was given by Anterexes (very bad spelling).

Please give me the basis that the 490 years actually meant Over 2000 years.

 

[Elle]

Hi Raeneske,
I've been following the debate between you and the others and debated whether I should or should not say anything. I've decided to give my opinion on the matter. I won't try and change your views, but I can try and explain why the last week of the 70 has not happened. The 69 weeks ended when Yeshua rode into Jerusalem, on the same day the passover lamb would have been chosen for the upcoming Passover, which would have been a Sunday. He was cutoff 4 days later on what would have been a Thursday. Those 4 days were outside the 69 weeks. I have a different understanding then most in regards to the Daniel 9 prophecy, it does not necessarily mean mine is the right one though. I'll explain below.

Daniel:
26And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (If you add the 7 weeks allotted for the rebuilding + the 62 weeks unto Messiah's entry into Jerusalem = 69 weeks) but not for himself: and the people of the prince (antichrist) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (this is not a literal city or sanctuary, this city is the holy city and the sanctuary the gentiles trodden down, these are God's people) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he(the manchild/2 witnesses/the Elijah to come/144,000) shall confirm the covenant (God's covenant for 1260 days) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the beast out of the abyss) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (2 witnesses) to cease (kills them), and for the overspreading of abominations (the abomination of desolation which is the same as the mark of the beast) he (antichrist) shall make it (the temple of the body where the mark is placed) desolate (ruined), even until the consummation (end), and that determined (judgement decreed) shall be poured (7 vials) upon the desolate (those who took the mark of the beast).

The Jerusalem of old did fall, but about 40 years later, but one part of that prophecy that some do think was fulfilled, but wasn't is this part: There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There are still stones standing one on top the other today, this is one scripture Jews use to support that Yeshua is not who he claimed to be. Yeshua was talking about the stones that make up the spiritual Jerusalem, God's people. Yeshua being the cornerstone and capstone of that pyramid of people.

 

[tgwprophet]

Elle wrote: " There are still stones standing one on top the other today, this is one scripture Jews use to support that Yeshua is not who he claimed to be. Yeshua was talking about the stones that make up the spiritual Jerusalem, God's people. Yeshua being the cornerstone and capstone of that pyramid of people. "

I ask, how can I verify this, as through the years and my studies I learned that the Jews were unsure exactly ehre the Temple was located in the courtyard and the possiblilty that is was not located where the Dome off the Rock is... meaning that the new Temple could be built without infringing on the Dome of the Rock. furthermore I learned that escavation under the courtyard was being done whenever possible and allowed.. to seek the stair case so the exact location of the Temple could be discovered. Now, if what you claim is true and can be proven - then all that other information is merely deception. Next, can it be proven that those "stones" were of the Temple and were not cast down... nearly 2000 years later. That someone did not simply stack a couple stones together s long time ago, even possibly right after the temple was cast down to affect prophecy?

I have never seen an image of the courtyard containing any stray stones nor heard of it. Is there a web site where this can be viewed? Even if so, is it possible the Words claiming not one stone left standing upon another is a translation error? and lastly, how is it not possible for a person to go and cast those stones (if they exist) down thus fulfilling prophecy?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Your words: "Please give me the basis that the 490 years actually meant Over 2000 years."

Could anyone satisfactorily answer that question? No. But consider this. There are many prophecies in the OT that have yet to be fulfilled. That is the main reason Israel's leaders rejected Christ's claims as Messiah. According to their prophecies, the Messiah was supposed to accomplish certain things upon His arrival. There are no prophecies in the OT that foretold of the Messiah coming twice. Does that negate all the prophecies that were fulfilled in His life? Of course not! However, it is undeniable that that there are several OT prophecies and most of the NT prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled. So based on your argument, you would stand with Israel's leaders and reject Christ because He didn't perform ALL He was prophesied to perform in the prophetic scriptures. Things didn't go the way they expected either. There is nothing wrong with questioning things, however, don't make the mistake of Israel's leaders and throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

 

[Elle]

Hi Terry,
You said:
I ask, how can I verify this, as through the years and my studies I learned that the Jews were unsure exactly ehre the Temple was located in the courtyard and the possiblilty that is was not located where the Dome off the Rock is... meaning that the new Temple could be built without infringing on the Dome of the Rock. furthermore I learned that escavation under the courtyard was being done whenever possible and allowed.. to seek the stair case so the exact location of the Temple could be discovered.

and.....

Next, can it be proven that those "stones" were of the Temple and were not cast down... nearly 2000 years later. That someone did not simply stack a couple stones together s long time ago, even possibly right after the temple was cast down to affect prophecy?

Read Josepheus' War of the Jews for more insight, and the link below that one as well from another person's perspective.

http://www.ccel.org/...ks/JOSEPHUS.HTM
http://www.jesus-mes...-one-stone.html

You said:
"Now, if what you claim is true and can be proven - then all that other information is merely deception."

Whoops, deleted my previous comment I had here, I thought you were referring to my understanding of Daniel 9 and I replied to that by citing what I said. Anyhow, Josephus' account shows not all stones were thrown down in 70AD. It comes down to what one believes, and I believe since he was an eyewitness, then he is stating the truth.

You said:
"I have never seen an image of the courtyard containing any stray stones nor heard of it. Is there a web site where this can be viewed?
Probably, you would have to search for it though.

You said:
"Even if so, is it possible the Words claiming not one stone left standing upon another is a translation error?"

Anything is possible, but when you put all the scriptures together that compare people to stones, it becomes doubtful.

You said:
"and lastly, how is it not possible for a person to go and cast those stones (if they exist) down thus fulfilling prophecy?"

Technically, Yeshua is casting them down by spitting them out of his mouth and purifying them through the fires of the Great Tribulation. Many will be killed at the hands of others.

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[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske,
I've been following the debate between you and the others and debated whether I should or should not say anything. I've decided to give my opinion on the matter. I won't try and change your views, but I can try and explain why the last week of the 70 has not happened. The 69 weeks ended when Yeshua rode into Jerusalem, on the same day the passover lamb would have been chosen for the upcoming Passover, which would have been a Sunday. He was cutoff 4 days later on what would have been a Thursday. Those 4 days were outside the 69 weeks. I have a different understanding then most in regards to the Daniel 9 prophecy, it does not necessarily mean mine is the right one though. I'll explain below.

Daniel:
26And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (If you add the 7 weeks allotted for the rebuilding + the 62 weeks unto Messiah's entry into Jerusalem = 69 weeks) but not for himself: and the people of the prince (antichrist) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (this is not a literal city or sanctuary, this city is the holy city and the sanctuary the gentiles trodden down, these are God's people) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he(the manchild/2 witnesses/the Elijah to come/144,000) shall confirm the covenant (God's covenant for 1260 days) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the beast out of the abyss) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (2 witnesses) to cease (kills them), and for the overspreading of abominations (the abomination of desolation which is the same as the mark of the beast) he (antichrist) shall make it (the temple of the body where the mark is placed) desolate (ruined), even until the consummation (end), and that determined (judgement decreed) shall be poured (7 vials) upon the desolate (those who took the mark of the beast).

The Jerusalem of old did fall, but about 40 years later, but one part of that prophecy that some do think was fulfilled, but wasn't is this part: There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There are still stones standing one on top the other today, this is one scripture Jews use to support that Yeshua is not who he claimed to be. Yeshua was talking about the stones that make up the spiritual Jerusalem, God's people. Yeshua being the cornerstone and capstone of that pyramid of people.

Hi there Elle, and thankyou for your response.

Unfortunatly, the Jewish people have a habit of denying Christ, and yes, even the fulfillment of His prophecies. So, it is not a shock that they would deny that there was not a stone left one upon the other, as they deny that Christ fit and fulfilled every single prophecy that was prophecied to happen about Him. With that being said, I do not believe the claim that the stones were not the way Christ said they would be. They did end up that way. He didn't have to state exactly why or how it happened, but He said it would. I learned the reasoning behind this prophecy, is because of the gold in/on every stone used to build up the temple in Jerusalem. In the destruction of 70 AD, the gold was taken from each and every stone.

Israel was given 490 years to repent from the command to rebuild Jerusalem, and turn to God. After this, the Gospel message was to be sent to the gentiles, who would then have the priveledge of carrying out the Gospel message to the world. This prophetic message given to Daniel was the last time frame Israel had left as a nation. This was also prophecied to happen in other areas such as:

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:10 KJV)

Please, read this next paragraph with thoughtfulness, and care, I beg you. One sentence at a time, please, begging again.

For this not to have happened, is to say God's prophecies were not on time, although He is very much 100% on time with His prophecies. What information is being fed to me, is God has given Israel 483 years, added about 2000 more years, and shall resume their last 7 years near the end times, at a random time. This begs the question, how many other prophecies would He do this with? Are we to assume, a time gap was inserted between the 1260 days prophecy? Or the 1290 days prophecy? Or the 1335 days prophecy? After all, supposedly these events have not happened, and are going to happen in the future. And if Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy stopped, what's to stop those other prophecies, and turn them into less definite prophecies. How do you know, if God will allow the 1260 days to begin, but then sees His church is not ready, and stops it at 980 days. Or worse, will mankind again say the last 30 days of the 1260 prophecy didn't happen, and thus they must wait for the last 30 days to begin? If such is the case, then is any other time prophecy actually definite that God gives? Do you see how illogical that is, how much sense it doesn't make Christians? God has given a definite time case, and we are going back, redefining prophecies, and making His definite words, indefinite. Do we not see the danger in fooling around with prophecy like this? In setting the time back, what Christian will genuinly realize that NOW is the time to prepare?

Now, Daniel showed that after 69 weeks, the Messiah would be cut off. This brings us to the 70th week. But when during that 70th week? In the midst of it, as scripture says. He was cut off not for sins of his own, he ended the temple sacrifices, he confirmed that New Covenant for 7 years with the Children of Israel, and then that was it for them.

As of now, I do not have the Biblical outline set up to show that Christ died in the "midst" of the last 7 years of Israels time left, based on passovers, but it will be provided if needs be.

 

[Elle]

Hi Raeneske,

You said:
"Hi there Elle, and thankyou for your response."

Your welcome Raeneske!

You said:
"For this not to have happened, is to say God's prophecies were not on time, although He is very much 100% on time with His prophecies."

I don't believe that is to say God's prophecies were not on time, it's just people's understanding of scriptures.

You said;
What information is being fed to me, is God has given Israel 483 years, added about 2000 more years, and shall resume their last 7 years near the end times, at a random time.

I know you are having a hard time grasping the concept, but it valid and has much biblical support.

You said:
This begs the question, how many other prophecies would He do this with? Are we to assume, a time gap was inserted between the 1260 days prophecy? Or the 1290 days prophecy? Or the 1335 days prophecy? After all, supposedly these events have not happened, and are going to happen in the future. After all, supposedly these events have not happened, and are going to happen in the future. And if Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy stopped, what's to stop those other prophecies, and turn them into less definite prophecies.

None, the stoning of Stephen caused a 2000 year breach. Read this, http://www.remnantbr...heissue2.6.html, if you like for better understanding. Remember there are 2 rains, the former rain that happened on Pentecost outlined in the Book of Acts and the latter rain that will fall upon Gods servants (144,000) and his sons and daughters (the tribulation saints) on a future Pentecost. This latter rain has not happened yet.

You said:
"How do you know, if God will allow the 1260 days to begin, but then sees His church is not ready, and stops it at 980 days. . Or worse, will mankind again say the last 30 days of the 1260 prophecy didn't happen, and thus they must wait for the last 30 days to begin? If such is the case, then is any other time prophecy actually definite that God gives?"
He sends the 2 witnesses to prepare them for what is coming, they will have been forewarned. There will be no starting and stopping of the 70th week.

You said:
"Do you see how illogical that is, how much sense it doesn't make Christians?"

I understand how you see that it is illogical and I respect your view and understanding. Only God's Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth and if you feel that your understanding is accurate, then that is what you must go with. I personally believe your understanding is in error, but as I stated before, I am not out to change your view, just give you a different perspective.

You said:
"God has given a definite time case, and we are going back, redefining prophecies, and making His definite words, indefinite. Do we not see the danger in fooling around with prophecy like this? In setting the time back, what Christian will genuinly realize that NOW is the time to prepare?"

We definitely need to prepare, no argument there.


You said:
"Now, Daniel showed that after 69 weeks, the Messiah would be cut off. This brings us to the 70th week. But when during that 70th week? In the midst of it, as scripture says. He was cut off not for sins of his own, he ended the temple sacrifices, he confirmed that New Covenant for 7 years with the Children of Israel, and then that was it for them."

It doesn't bring us to the 70th week, at least according to my understanding. As I explained before, his entrance into Jerusalem ended the 69 weeks, there were only 4 days left until he was cut off. 4 days does not fulfill 7 years that are left of the 70th week. The prophecy does not say Yeshua will be cut off in the middle of the week, he was all ready cut off back in Daniel 9:26. The prophecy says: "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The "he" here is not Yeshua or the antichrist, it is the man child, the 144,000, the Elijah to come. It is they who confirm God's covenant with His people in the end times. The are symbolic of the sacrifice and oblation that ceases. The beast kills them to stop them. Yeshua never ended the physical Temple sacrifices, they continued for 39-41 more years before they ceased. If Yeshua did away with animal sacrifices, then why will the people be sacrificing animals during the 1000 years according Ezekiel 40:38-39) and discussed in more detail in to Ezekiel 45:13 – 46:15? The destruction of Jerusalem is nothing more than a type for what's to come in our day. Yeshua's ministry is also a type for the end time 2 witnesses, albeit not near as important as was his. Like John the Baptist, the 144,000 will prepare the way for the 2nd coming of Christ. Like Christ, they will confirm God's covenant with the people. Like Christ, they will be killed by the enemy. Like Christ, they will rise up, but not in 3 days, but rather 3.5 days later. Like Christ they will ascend to God's throne. These are the first fruits made in the image of God. The next harvest will be the wheat harvest of the tribulation saints and the final harvest will be those who live into the 1000 years. I apologize if it sounds blasphemous to compare the 2 witnesses to Yeshua, but the Bible confirms it.

You said:
"As of now, I do not have the Biblical outline set up to show that Christ died in the "midst" of the last 7 years of Israels time left, based on passovers, but it will be provided if needs be."

You don't need to, because at one time I thought the same way you did. Only difference was, is that I believed in a 3.5 year tribulation towards the end.

Well Raeneske, all these various understandings will be proved to either stand or fall. We won't know until that time. I don't get dogmatic on too much, because often times I come to a new understanding, as I did today in regards to 2 of Revelations personages and had to change my understanding.

 

[tgwprophet]

Elle you wrote: " Read Josepheus' War of the Jews for more insight, and the link below that one as well from another person's perspective. "
and gave these links... http://www.ccel.org/...ks/JOSEPHUS.HTM http://www.jesus-mes...-one-stone.html

Ok I was looking for pictorial proof, not just some writing that dates way back in time and could not possibly prove those stones as you claim are sitll there! And after reading your post I did search and found ZERO validation...thus far. All the ministers and theologians claiming the location of the Temple is unknow as of yet... are liars because those stones remain, and yet I can find no picture nor script claiming they are there or ever was.

I real recently looked up Daily Sacrifice, knowing the Jews have started some sacrifices, yet I discovered many internet sites claiming the Jews no longer do sacrifices, claiming the Jews have substituted animal sacrifices for other means of atonement. Yet my aunt went to Israel and saw first hand .. animal sacrifices. So with all the photos of the courtyard I have seen and none qualifying stones still standing in the courtyard... my guessis your inforamation is skewed. Also I found no web site saying the Jews held these stones as proof against Jesus being Messiah.

also you said... " Probably, you would have to search for it though. " - I did not make that claim...you did. You also said those stones are still there, but you have no proof of that. If you make the claim, should you not also be able to provide the reference and a reference to those stones standing today given my a person who dies many centuries ago is not proof of validation.

I also researched reasons the Jews do not accept Jesus and the claim about the stones was not located anywhere I searched.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Notice below that although i states the foundation trench of the souther wall... is told, no mention of any stones of Solomon's Temple is addressed, of coursse... why would one address something not there.[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The Foundation Stone of the Temple in Jerusalem | Ritmeyer ...[/background]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]www.ritmeyer.com/2012/06/30/the-foundation-stone-of-the...[/background][/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Jun 30, 2012 ... The Holy of Holies (Most Holy Place) of Solomon's Temple stood on this... order for the rectangular foundation stones to stand perfectly horizontal. The foundation trench of the southern wall of Solomon's temple can still be detected. ... I visited the inside of the Dome of the Rock last month and there was lots ...[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]=======================================================[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]And again.... [/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Solomon's Temple - John P. Pratt Home Page[/background][/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2008/temple.h...[/background][/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Aug 15, 2008 ... A new location is proposed for the location of Solomon's Temple. ...Rather than erect a Christian shrine there, the Romans then allowed the mount to ... He was said to stand "on top the Mount of Olives" at that time. ... We propose that this line ofstones was the center axis of Solomon's Temple, and that it ...[/background][/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]If there were stones still standing... then eplain WHY is there a NEW location found... for the stones being there since 70AD would have always shown where the Temple was located.[/background][/background]​

Still more....

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]KING SOLOMON'S TEMPLE Historical Fact or ... - Pictou Masons[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]pictoumasons.org/library/Zumwalt, Homer ~ King ...[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The question still asked by some Archaeologists and researchers to this day is, " did King... As they point out, in all the excavations that have been made in the ... Since everystone of Solomon's Temple has disappeared, our earliest .... source of history and make the Bible stand out more and more brightly against the ...[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]This one conveys... Since every stone of Solomon's Temple has disappeared... [/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Every Stone has disappeared,... Yet, it is your contention there are stones still standing???[/background]​

Ok, last time into the breech:​

Major 'Keys' in Discovering the Lost Temples of Jerusalem​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]askelm.com/temple/t011112.htm[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]There are no stones to be found on top one another of this former Temple as ... as the place where Solomon, Zerubbabel and Herod constructed their Temples. ..... one of the truly great buildings of the classical world (which is still standing [/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Still not convienced?[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Sooner or later I must say these stones are not there, and so, the contention that the Jews still deny Jesus because not all the stones were cast down...is not valid.[/background]​