Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.
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Yes, but Paul has already said they were broken off through unbelief. It was Paul's hope that through salvation given even unto the Gentiles, SOME of those of his flesh might be saved. Any one of those of his flesh in unbelief who did not remain in unbelief, would be grafted back in again, and through those no longer in unbelief and the Gentiles of faith with them, it would mean the reconciliation of the world through faithful saints of all nations. Paul warns Gentiles to remain in faith, for if they too show themselves in unbelief, just as the natural branches found to be in unbelief were cut off, so too Gentiles shown to be in unbelief shall be cut off also.
Romans 11:13-14 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Blindness in part happened to those in unbelief UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles come in. It is in this way, that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, not an ethnic people but all people of faith. Saved by the Deliverer who comes out of Sion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For the Covenant is unto THEM, when the Deliverer shall take away THEIR sins. Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh in unbelief concerning the Gospel are enemies for the sake of Gentiles of faith who shall now be grafted in with Israel of faith, not Israel in unbelief. Why? Because as touching election, Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the Covenant according to election of grace is through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the beloved of God.
Romans 11:25-28 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
That's why Paul has earlier written in Romans 9 that not all who are of Israel are Israel of faith, according to election of grace. Where is writes that though the number of Israel be as the sand of the seashore "only the remnant shall be saved." Because only true Israel of faith, that is both Jew of faith and Gentile of faith are "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16). Not according to circumcision or uncircumcision but according to the like faith of the fathers' according to election.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is not just the OT. Jesus Himself taught a coming physical kingdom on the earth. That is why He was rejected, because He, Himself never set up that kingdom.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Daniel was told by Gabriel that Jesus was both Christ and King. While the OT blurs the lines between the two, Amil keeps those lines blurred with no distinction between Saviour and Lord in Jerusalem. It is not even until the 7th Trumpet that Jesus is declared King of every nation. That kingdom is not over in 30 seconds.
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
You keep mentioning this last Trumpet, and if this is the same one you keep talking about that is when forever starts on earth. Yet that heavenly kingdom has been forever as well. That is why Amil are wrong to blur the lines, while telling the world they have it all figured out.
Daniel 7 talked about the Prince to Come. Revelation 11 states the 7th Trumpet declares Jesus as that Prince over all kingdoms not just Israel. And that 7th Trumpet did not sound in the first century, so that earthly kingdom comes with the Second Coming, not the first coming. The first coming opened Paradise, that heavenly kingdom, for all those OT redeemed souls waiting in a section of death and the grave, Jesus referred to as resting on Abraham's bosom.
Jesus unblurred the lines, and declared some were enjoying life in the afterlife, and many were in torment. But they all had to be called out of their graves because that last day resurrection had arrived. Jesus Christ was that last day resurrection. Jesus told us He was the Resurrection and the Life. Death no longer held those OT redeemed in the valley of the shadow of death. They all physically ascended to Paradise, that heavenly kingdom to be seated with Christ in heavenly places.
Serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, with the Lamb in their midst. All the NT redeemed starting with the thief on the Cross, has instantly been awarded that heavenly kingdom with a permanent incorruptible physical body. The church has entered Paradise through the last 1994 years of great tribulation. This has not been a Millennial seen Kingdom on earth per Revelation 20. This is the trouble and persecution mentioned in Matthew 24:4-14 while the Gospel went to the whole world.
God has been filling up that unseen heavenly kingdom, that we are only ambassadors of while on the earth. At the Second Coming is when the Prince will set up that earthly kingdom as promised in the OT and Revelation 11 at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Then time will be up for those 70 weeks mentioned by Gabriel. Then all those promises will be literally accomplished on the earth for the Day of the Lord, the literal thousand years, not some blurred indefinite timescape.
No one is denying the power of the Cross nor the Gospel. That is more lame excuses to reject a literal kingdom of God on the earth. Both are so powerful, that none of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be found in the Millennium. Even pre-mill think some of Adam's dead corruptible flesh sneak into God's kingdom on earth. The iron rod rule will not allow a single act of disobedience without the death penalty. No one would be allowed to live one second in Adam's dead corruptible state. All humans alive and future humans born in the Millennium will have a permanent incorruptible physical body.
No blurred lines with only God knowing one's heart or by their fruit one can know. Amil's current blurred Millennium has thousands of groups with thousands of variations of the Gospel. Believers and unbelievers getting along with each other for the most part. Only those bound in spiritual darkness persecute the saints, so many have always been deceived, that is why Amil cannot have Satan permanently disabled, only a "dog on a chain". The Millennium or Day of the Lord may be presented as vague or ambiguous in Scripture, but it will be everything but vague and ambiguous when it actually happens.
The Day of the Lord cannot be Amil's version of reality. That was only the NT church age. The church was the last days, plural, so more than 1. It has been almost 2, so definitely plural, still not indefinite. The Day of the Lord is a defined single day, lasting a thousand years. This whole thread is arguing over the length of a thousand years, yet the amil version is literally the last 2 days, both with definite ends and beginnings. That is how time works, not just some vague construct of one's imagination.
It almost seems as if those 12 disciples/apostles knew exactly what would happen but were not allowed to be explicit, even if they dropped hints. The church would have went stagnant thinking they had plenty of time to turn things around towards the end, no? The church became corrupted any way following in the same trap of human government Israel did wanting a kingdom like all the other kids on the block. When Jesus specifically told us no kingdom of His would work on earth unless He was physically present as King. And now Amil deny such an earthly Kingdom, period. Jesus never denied one, He just pointed out humans would fail if they went that route.
It should be pointed out that Satan was bound while Jesus was present on earth, if that is the route one takes from that parable about a strong man, and demon possession. No Scripture states Satan remained bound after Jesus returned to heaven. After the Second Coming, Jesus is on earth again. Satan is again explicitly bound for that time period. Not sure why this is that hard to figure out.
The seventh angel will not sound before the last Gentile to be saved comes into the spiritual Kingdom of God by grace through faith. John writes in Rev 10 in the days when the seventh trumpet begins "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." (Rev 10:5-7) It is then that "all Israel of God", not an ethnic people, but all people of faith shall be saved through Christ when He returns to gather together His people of faith throughout the whole earth. There will be no more time for Israel in unbelief to turn to Christ for salvation then.
What is the mystery that should be finished when the seventh trumpet begins to sound? The mystery hidden until the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed the spiritual Kingdom of God would be completed through the Gentiles, not Israel in unbelief all being saved.
Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Ephesians 3:1-7 (KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
It was Jewish CHRISTIANS scattered abroad who belonged together with Gentiles of faith to the seven Churches John was instructed to write to.
Not sure what you're trying to say here? Do you believe that when one becomes a faithful Christian they have no responsibility to share the Gospel with those in unbelief right up to the last moment they can? We work for salvation, but we do work out our salvation because it is God who works in us to both will and do of His good pleasure.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
When did John decide to start going to the Gentiles?
I don’t think a time will ever come when we don’t need to preach but you said earlier that there is no need for the gospel to go out when Satan is loosed.
If you know there is no need then why would you continue to preach? Unless there would be uncertainty about whether Satan was loosed or not.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The church of Philadelphia ended around 1920. So how can you be sure which generation in those 2 millennia Revelation 3 is specifying?
Just because you think you know when Revelation was written does not mean it would not pertain to a church that literally lasted in Philadelphia until WW1.
Revelations does not specify it was written to 7 Jewish congregations. That would be your interpretational spin asserted into Revelation 1. Do you think Paul later (after Galatians) was deceptive in stating the church was neither Jew nor Gentile, and should we segregate the church for all eternity?
I am not saying that John did not go, nor even wrote 3 other books to the circumcised. I am saying the book of Revelations was sent to 7 churches without such a specification, which you assert.
I agree in part. They are 'two' olive trees, and 'two' lampstands. I believe they are the Word of God of Old contained in the Law and Prophets, and the Word of God of New delivered through proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Which is what shall be silenced to the world of unbelief and appear as if all the saints proclaiming the Word have been killed.
There is no way for any man to know who shall be or is saved or not. God only knows! It's not about knowing no one else is being saved. If the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is silenced (seemingly killed) on earth than who in unbelief shall hear to be saved? Will believers not know when laws against the Word of God being spoken are enacted? But at that point how would anyone be able to determine exactly how long Satan's little season shall be? The only thing we can know with certainty is that it will be "little".
In post #287 you said this …
It was never written as already being fulfilled, not even the messages to the 7 churches, as they still had to receive the book themselves to even read what was written in Revelations about them.
So now are you arguing that the messages weren’t written or meant for the very people they were sent to but some future generation?
So if we can’t know who is or isn’t saved then how can we know whether or not the strong man’s house is currently being spoiled or not?
If you say there is no metric we can use to know if Satan is loosed then there is no argument that can be made to know if he is currently bound or not, which calls into question whether the Amill view is correct or not.
Some things to keep in mind about the 2Ws, though. They can be made war against. They can be killed. They can rise from the dead. They can ascend into heaven. Does how you are understanding the law and the prophets fit all of those things? Keeping in mind as well, when all of these things happen, whatever they might look like when they are being fulfilled, the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, and that John at the time of seeing these visions indicated the beast was to ascend out of the pit in the future. This at least tells us that these events are involving an era of time after Christ had already ascended to heaven the fact when John initially saw these visions, Christ had already ascended to heaven.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
The text indicates that he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations until he is loosed first. Obviously, this presents a major problem if we apply these things to this present age. In order to know with certainty that satan has been loosed, we simply look for signs that indicate he is deceiving the nations again. Except he has never stopped deceiving nations to begin with. That's pretty obvious if we compare things per the past 2000 years with that of reality. Clearly, from the time of the cross through now, satan has never stopped deceiving the nations. How then is one supposed to look for signs that indicate his little season has begun, if he has never stopped deceiving the nations to begin with?
All these things I believed did happen to John the Baptist which symbolized the law and the prophets, or really, the old covenant that point to Christ. Notice in Revelation 11:19 the ark is seen in heaven, the Ten Commandments were in the ark.
I personally think the beast came out of the pit when Jesus was on earth and the beast overcame those who relied on the law and the prophets to “see” their Messiah. Not being able to “see” the Messiah resulted in them killing the true Messiah. Once Messiah was killed or cut off they became beheaded.
That is a big problem for Amill.
Personally I think Satan was bound from using the Gentiles to destroy Jerusalem. Scripturally there was nothing that prevented Satan from destroying Jerusalem once Messiah is cut off in Daniel 9:26-27. Jerusalem could’ve been destroyed during the seventieth week but that was prevented by binding him from exercising this right.
As far as I can tell, one reason some conclude it has to be literal is because Noah's flood was mentioned in this ch, and that that event was literal. So what if Noah's flood was literal, at least God provided a way to preserve the animal kingdom at the time. How is the animal kingdom preserved this time around if the entire planet literally goes up in flames? Where is the ark that keeps them safe during when the entire earth is allegedly burning up? Not to mention, the fact Revelation 19 also involves the 2nd coming, where is there anything in that entire chapter that remotely gives the impression the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time?
Very thorough study you did there, BTW.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Sorry but those 7 churches started by Peter were in Asia, modern day Turkey, further away from this diaspora mentioned to only as far away as Antioch. Peter did not stop with Cornelius. Peter traveled all the way to Spain, and back through north Africa all the way to Babylon. Peter covered the majority of the Roman empire, as Jesus gave him that duty across the empire. The other disciples filled in the empty spaces, Thomas going all the way to India. So there were Israelites all over the earth, not just a single group calling themselves Jews.
Stephen met an eunuch from Ethiopia, who was an Israelite who went up to Jerusalem each year. So the lost sheep of Israel were all the way down into Africa. There is no question that Israelites were being saved all over, along with Gentiles. The issue is claiming Revelation was written to only Jews about 70AD.
Those of Israel in Asia had been there since 720BC when Israel was scattered across the earth. No one is claiming Israel ever lost her Israelness. Jesus called them the lost sheep of Israel. No mention of the lost sheep of the Jews. The circumcision was all of Israel not just a few tribes.
You are the one imposing certain aspects based on doctrine or interpretational bias.
You need to try and look at things beyond 70 AD, though. The world didn't end in 70 AD, obviously. We're all still here aren't we?
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