Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[grafted branch]

You need to try and look at things beyond 70 AD, though. The world didn't end in 70 AD, obviously. We're all still here aren't we?

Yes, we’re still here awaiting the future coming of Christ.
Luke 21:22 says that all things which are written may be fulfilled. I see the events happening in 66-70AD fulfilling things that were written in the Bible but I know not everyone sees it that way.

 

[grafted branch]

Sorry but those 7 churches started by Peter were in Asia, modern day Turkey, further away from this diaspora mentioned to only as far away as Antioch. Peter did not stop with Cornelius. Peter traveled all the way to Spain, and back through north Africa all the way to Babylon. Peter covered the majority of the Roman empire, as Jesus gave him that duty across the empire. The other disciples filled in the empty spaces, Thomas going all the way to India. So there were Israelites all over the earth, not just a single group calling themselves Jews.

Stephen met an eunuch from Ethiopia, who was an Israelite who went up to Jerusalem each year. So the lost sheep of Israel were all the way down into Africa. There is no question that Israelites were being saved all over, along with Gentiles. The issue is claiming Revelation was written to only Jews about 70AD.

Those of Israel in Asia had been there since 720BC when Israel was scattered across the earth. No one is claiming Israel ever lost her Israelness. Jesus called them the lost sheep of Israel. No mention of the lost sheep of the Jews. The circumcision was all of Israel not just a few tribes.

You are the one imposing certain aspects based on doctrine or interpretational bias.

So now your argument is that Jews were all over the Roman Empire therefore John didn’t write to the Jews? Shouldn’t you be trying to argue that Jews weren’t all throughout the Roman Empire thus proving John had to be writing to Gentiles?

 

[Davidpt]

I personally think the beast came out of the pit when Jesus was on earth and the beast overcame those who relied on the law and the prophets to “see” their Messiah. Not being able to “see” the Messiah resulted in them killing the true Messiah. Once Messiah was killed or cut off they became beheaded.

I have no clue how you arrived at that or why you would even want to. Why would John be prophesying about past events when it's pretty obvious, regardless when he saw these visions, that it was after Christ had already died and rose, and after Christ had already ascended to heaven and that he indicated the beast was in the pit at the time, the fact that's what it would have to mean if it is to ascend out of it? Can't ascend out of it unless you are in there first, obviously.

 

[rwb]

So if we can’t know who is or isn’t saved then how can we know whether or not the strong man’s house is currently being spoiled or not?

If you say there is no metric we can use to know if Satan is loosed then there is no argument that can be made to know if he is currently bound or not, which calls into question whether the Amill view is correct or not.

By faith! When people profess to having come to a saving knowledge of Christ, and say they have been born again, they are accepted as belonging to the body of Christ and are entitled to receive of all the benefits afforded them from the Church. Especially those who submit to being members of the body of Christ through the ordinance of water baptism. When Paul penned letters to the Churches he typically began with "to the saints" knowing there are many among the body of Christ who are not born again, and who may be there to cause division among the members.

 

[Davidpt]

By faith! When people profess to having come to a saving knowledge of Christ, and say they have been born again, they are accepted as belonging to the body of Christ and are entitled to receive of all the benefits afforded them from the Church. Especially those who submit to being members of the body of Christ through the ordinance of water baptism. When Paul penned letters to the Churches he typically began with "to the saints" knowing there are many among the body of Christ who are not born again, and who may be there to cause division among the members.

In the event Amil is the correct position, maybe it is maybe it isn't, the only way to make sense out of these things in that case, this has to be connected with the falling away per 1 Thessalonians 2:3. Nothing else makes sense to me, assuming Amil might be the correct position. Then there is the issue that Amil has pretty much everyone mentioned in Revelation 20:4 reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state. Which then makes no sense how any of them can be surrounded on the earth, in any sense, if they are not even on the earth at the time, but are in heaven instead. IOW, there is a total disconnect with that of Revelation 20:4 and verses 7-9 that follow. Why then bring up the martyrs in verse 4 if none of them have any involvement whatsoever pertaining to verses 7-9?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, but Paul has already said they were broken off through unbelief. It was Paul's hope that through salvation given even unto the Gentiles, SOME of those of his flesh might be saved. Any one of those of his flesh in unbelief who did not remain in unbelief, would be grafted back in again, and through those no longer in unbelief and the Gentiles of faith with them, it would mean the reconciliation of the world through faithful saints of all nations. Paul warns Gentiles to remain in faith, for if they too show themselves in unbelief, just as the natural branches found to be in unbelief were cut off, so too Gentiles shown to be in unbelief shall be cut off also.

Romans 11:13-14 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Blindness in part happened to those in unbelief UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles come in. It is in this way, that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, not an ethnic people but all people of faith. Saved by the Deliverer who comes out of Sion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For the Covenant is unto THEM, when the Deliverer shall take away THEIR sins. Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh in unbelief concerning the Gospel are enemies for the sake of Gentiles of faith who shall now be grafted in with Israel of faith, not Israel in unbelief. Why? Because as touching election, Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the Covenant according to election of grace is through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the beloved of God.

Romans 11:25-28 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

That's why Paul has earlier written in Romans 9 that not all who are of Israel are Israel of faith, according to election of grace. Where is writes that though the number of Israel be as the sand of the seashore "only the remnant shall be saved." Because only true Israel of faith, that is both Jew of faith and Gentile of faith are "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16). Not according to circumcision or uncircumcision but according to the like faith of the fathers' according to election.

But your argument says unbelief was removed because of the Cross. The reality is unbelief was introduced because of the Gospel. They were cut off and enemies because of the Gospel.

The Cross cut them off, and they will be cut off until the Second Coming. You say they were cut off, and brought back at the first coming. The blindness in part was because of the Cross, and yes they can overcome that blindness. But the Second Coming, not the first coming removes that blindness. Most Amil deny that Israel will be restored at the Second Coming. Not in Satan's little season, but a thousand years prior to Satan's little season.

The restoration is about Israel at the time of the Second Coming. Not retroactive from thousands of years ago. Amil want to argue restoration is the here and now, only on the basis there is no future millennium. It is reformed theology that claims the 70th week was finished in the first century.

The 70th week is over at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the start of the thousand years in Revelation 20. The time up is the time of Daniel, those 70 weeks, not time itself. Daniel did not cover all of earthly time. Only the last 3500 years.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time was called up, but surrounding the mystery of God. Most call that the Gospel. So I agree the Gospel ends at the 7th Trumpet. So there is no need of the Gospel, while Jesus is physically on earth as the King over all nations. The iron rod rule will prevent disobedience and sin and death entering the world. It is sin and death that makes the Gospel necessary.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

No Gospel is necessary after these promises are implemented. As long as there is a Gospel preached, the 70 weeks are still not complete. The Cross was half of the equation as Messiah. The second part is being Prince over the entire earth. That is when blindness in part is removed, and a remnant, some from those alive at the Second Coming, a third are redeemed and live out the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 for a thousand years.

I am not sure how you can reconcile that Israel received in full the 70th week, and was placed under blindness and made enemies of the Gospel at the same time. The 70th week was not the coming of the Gospel. The Gospel was the inclusion of the Gentiles for an entire 2,000 years before the full effect of the 70th week. Those left out would be destroyed. Yet even after the Second Coming, Jesus is still offering salvation and redemption out of those still in bondage to Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The restoration is on God's terms, not that Israel nor the Gentiles choose God.

God can still choose according to election, those who are enemies of the Gospel. Election is not at work during the time of the Gospel. Those in blindness are not auto redeemed. Israel was cut off. That is the whole point of no difference between Israel and Gentile. All have to come by faith of the second birth to be grafted in. Yet many just want to see this as a continuation of Israel and that the 70th week was over. That is not Israel restored, the Second Coming is Israel restored. Daniel even pointed out, Messiah would be cut off, but not for Himself. The cut off part was the Gospel going out to all on earth, both Israel and the Gentiles. The Prince to come part is the Second Coming, and the point of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[grafted branch]

By faith! When people profess to having come to a saving knowledge of Christ, and say they have been born again, they are accepted as belonging to the body of Christ and are entitled to receive of all the benefits afforded them from the Church. Especially those who submit to being members of the body of Christ through the ordinance of water baptism. When Paul penned letters to the Churches he typically began with "to the saints" knowing there are many among the body of Christ who are not born again, and who may be there to cause division among the members.

If faith is the means by which we can determine whether Satan is bound or not then why is it that we can’t get a definitive answer on whether Satan is loosed or not? Can you give me a definitive yes or no on whether Satan is currently loosed?

 

[grafted branch]

Why would John be prophesying about past events when it's pretty obvious, regardless when he saw these visions, that it was after Christ had already died and rose, and after Christ had already ascended to heaven and that he indicated the beast was in the pit at the time, the fact that's what it would have to mean if it is to ascend out of it? Can't ascend out of it unless you are in there first, obviously.

So is Satan limited to only being in the pit once and coming out once?

Revelation 20 only shows he was bound in the pit, so when Revelation 17:8 says was, is not, and shall ascend, it could simply mean he was free to come and go out of the pit (his abode), he is not now allowed to come out, and he will ascend back out of the pit in the future.

And don’t forget about Babylon, in Revelation 18:2, it became the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. This pertains to Satan and the beast.

 

[Timtofly]

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.



When did John decide to start going to the Gentiles?

John stopped going anywhere when he was banished to Patmos, with no escape from that Island. Do you not understand the situation John was in? They tried to kill John just like they did Peter and Paul. God made sure John did not physically die, sparing his life. Peter and Paul were already dead. John was placed on Patmos because they could not kill him. The disciples were all martyred, as the Romans thought that would end the Gospel. Obviously the Gospel lasted longer than the Roman empire did. The Roman empire was just experiencing their golden age when Jesus came to earth. That empire would last another 300+ years. Neither Rome nor the Gospel destroyed each other contrary to popular opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

In post #287 you said this …

It was never written as already being fulfilled, not even the messages to the 7 churches, as they still had to receive the book themselves to even read what was written in Revelations about them.


So now are you arguing that the messages weren’t written or meant for the very people they were sent to but some future generation?

Was Genesis only written for those who died during the 40 years in the wilderness?

I said Revelations was not written as having been already fulfilled, even if written in the past tense.

No, the book was not written for one particular generation of one particular church. It was sent to 7 different local congregations. It applies to the Second Coming more than that generation.

Don't you think every book of the NT applies to us, even if sent to a single person or church? Why would a book specifically sent to 7 different churches be any different?

Yes, there was a specific admonition to each specific congregation. Many think they have those points all figured out. I am not one of those. Some think they were historical over the last 2 millennia. Who knows for sure?

If you think it was to only warn that generation, you are presupposing that point. If you think they could be warned, that may have been the case. It is the Holy Spirit that works when we read Scripture. To say Revelation only had one singular purpose is placing limits on the Holy Spirit. John was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. John wrote down the very words of Jesus to those churches, and then what he was a literal witness to. Those segments to the churches were the direct Word of God. Then John literally saw all the other events and wrote in symbolic form. Many claim John only saw the symbolic form. That is not true, because John was awake and writing down what he saw as he saw these events. John did not see symbols.

Being caught up in the spirit is not the same as being inspired. It is like when Philip was caught up in the spirit and physically moved from one location to another location. The difference was John was moved through both time and space physically. Not to another location just on earth, but John moved from earth to heaven and back to earth. Probably several times as he wrote from the perspective of heaven and earth interchangeably. John saw both the beginning of the thousand years, and the end of the thousand years, so moved through time. Then John moved outside of creation and into a totally different creation, and then back to first century earth. That is what caught up in the spirit shows us.

So not sure how you can imply the book of Revelation was for only one single generation as defined by the writings of Josephus.

 

[rwb]

In the event Amil is the correct position, maybe it is maybe it isn't, the only way to make sense out of these things in that case, this has to be connected with the falling away per 1 Thessalonians 2:3. Nothing else makes sense to me, assuming Amil might be the correct position. Then there is the issue that Amil has pretty much everyone mentioned in Revelation 20:4 reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state. Which then makes no sense how any of them can be surrounded on the earth, in any sense, if they are not even on the earth at the time, but are in heaven instead. IOW, there is a total disconnect with that of Revelation 20:4 and verses 7-9 that follow. Why then bring up the martyrs in verse 4 if none of them have any involvement whatsoever pertaining to verses 7-9?

It's only the saints who have physically died that are a spiritual body of believers in heaven after death. The saints surrounded during Satan's little season are still physically alive on earth.

 

[rwb]

If faith is the means by which we can determine whether Satan is bound or not then why is it that we can’t get a definitive answer on whether Satan is loosed or not? Can you give me a definitive yes or no on whether Satan is currently loosed?

We stand in faith in regarding who is saved. If a person claims to be saved, having been born again and becomes yoked together with other believers, who are we to say they are not saved? We know when Satan was bound because Scripture tells us when. We only know that Satan shall be loosed when the symbolic thousand years have ended. Since it is a symbolic and not literal time, it would be impossible for anyone to know the exact timing. We can only attempt to discern when it might be IMO as the Word of God is being more and more challenged and curtailed through the forces of evil. No, I don't in this stage of redemptive history believe Satan has been set free from His pit yet. That's because there is still evidence of the Word of God being proclaimed and people all over the world are still appearing to be saved by grace through faith.

 

[Timtofly]

That is a big problem for Amill.

Personally I think Satan was bound from using the Gentiles to destroy Jerusalem. Scripturally there was nothing that prevented Satan from destroying Jerusalem once Messiah is cut off in Daniel 9:26-27. Jerusalem could’ve been destroyed during the seventieth week but that was prevented by binding him from exercising this right.

Jerusalem was destroyed during the 70th week. Even Daniel 9:26 said that much.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

No one is denying the temple and city were destroyed. This all happens after the 69 weeks. No verse states the temple and city are destroyed after the 70th week, nor that the destruction would end the 70 weeks.

The Messiah being cut off is related to the destruction of the temple and city. They brought down the vengeance by saying that Jesus' blood would be on their hands and their children's hands, multiple generations, not just one single generation.

The 70th week will not end until time is up in Revelation 10 during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, but Paul has already said they were broken off through unbelief. It was Paul's hope that through salvation given even unto the Gentiles, SOME of those of his flesh might be saved. Any one of those of his flesh in unbelief who did not remain in unbelief, would be grafted back in again, and through those no longer in unbelief and the Gentiles of faith with them, it would mean the reconciliation of the world through faithful saints of all nations. Paul warns Gentiles to remain in faith, for if they too show themselves in unbelief, just as the natural branches found to be in unbelief were cut off, so too Gentiles shown to be in unbelief shall be cut off also.

Romans 11:13-14 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Blindness in part happened to those in unbelief UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles come in. It is in this way, that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, not an ethnic people but all people of faith. Saved by the Deliverer who comes out of Sion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For the Covenant is unto THEM, when the Deliverer shall take away THEIR sins. Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh in unbelief concerning the Gospel are enemies for the sake of Gentiles of faith who shall now be grafted in with Israel of faith, not Israel in unbelief. Why? Because as touching election, Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the Covenant according to election of grace is through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the beloved of God.

Romans 11:25-28 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

That's why Paul has earlier written in Romans 9 that not all who are of Israel are Israel of faith, according to election of grace. Where is writes that though the number of Israel be as the sand of the seashore "only the remnant shall be saved." Because only true Israel of faith, that is both Jew of faith and Gentile of faith are "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16). Not according to circumcision or uncircumcision but according to the like faith of the fathers' according to election.

What Paul is saying here, RWB ~ and you can call this my opinion; that's fine with me ~ is that, similar to anyone else not born again of the Spirit and thus not believing, they would see and or hear from Gentile believers and want for themselves what they have, namely Jesus. So, yes, the hope is that ethnic Jews not of God's Israel would observe and even hear from believing Gentiles ~ and, really, the Spirit working in them through that, to work faith in them and bring them to belief...

And, yes, they would then be grafted into God's Israel ~ grafted back in again, as Paul says, but that should not be understood in the manner that they were actually part of God's Israel, and then fell out, and had to be called by God again, but rather that, being a part of Israel's covenant community they seemed to be of God's Israel but were actually not... "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6), and "the elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:7). God does not have to call any of His elect and bring them to Himself twice; it only takes once... ..."for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).​

...just as anyone called by God and given the gift of faith, and thus believing.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The seventh angel will not sound before the last Gentile to be saved comes into the spiritual Kingdom of God by grace through faith.

Right, and the partial hardening now on Israel is removed. All of God's elect.

John writes in Rev 10 in the days when the seventh trumpet begins "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." (Rev 10:5-7) It is then that "all Israel of God", not an ethnic people, but all people of faith shall be saved through Christ when He returns to gather together His people of faith throughout the whole earth. There will be no more time for Israel in unbelief to turn to Christ for salvation then.

What is the mystery that should be finished when the seventh trumpet begins to sound? The mystery hidden until the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed the spiritual Kingdom of God would be completed through the Gentiles, not Israel in unbelief all being saved.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:1-7 (KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hmmm.

Grace and peace to you, RWB!

 

[PinSeeker]

I don’t try to paint the whole Amill group with the same brush, I actually think Amill has many points that are valid that I agree with but when it comes to Satan being loosed I think Amill is incorrect.

It seems that Amill can clearly identify when Satan was bound...

Sure.

...but they all seem to have an issue with claiming definitively that he is loosed...

Right, nobody can claim that Satan is loosed with any real credibility. He may be, but I don't think so yet.

If the evidence of Satan being loosed is that no one else is being saved, then shouldn’t Amill churches be keeping records of people becoming saved and when perhaps several months have passed where no one becomes saved then they can declare Satan is loosed? Wouldn’t this be extremely important information for Amill?

LOL! Just pay attention to what you see, Grafted Branch. That's all we can do. My goodness. Keeping records... LOL!

Do you know of any program such as this going on?

No... LOL!

Amill are always wondering if Satan is loosed...

Well, no... LOL! But we know it's coming, and, well, we are all exhorted to keep watch and be ready.

...this situation has been going on for who knows how long, probably ever since the year 1,000 Ad.

Oh, goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you, GB.

 

[PinSeeker]

As far as I can tell, one reason some conclude it has to be literal is because Noah's flood was mentioned in this ch, and that that event was literal. So what if Noah's flood was literal, at least God provided a way to preserve the animal kingdom at the time. How is the animal kingdom preserved this time around if the entire planet literally goes up in flames? Where is the ark that keeps them safe during when the entire earth is allegedly burning up? Not to mention, the fact Revelation 19 also involves the 2nd coming, where is there anything in that entire chapter that remotely gives the impression the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time?

Our God is a consuming fire, David.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The text indicates that he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations…

Right, which means, in the apocalyptic, visionary context of John’s narrative, Satan is unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations. And we see the Gospel spreading like wildfire, especially in places like Africa and Asia.

Obviously, this presents a major problem if we apply these things to this present age.

Only if we misconstrue Satan’s deception of the nations. Before Jesus came, he was able to keep all nations (tongues, tribes, and people groups, not nation-states) in the dark. This is actually only because God allowed to be so; God used the lesser Israel as a sort of tutor, or visual aid, for what His greater plan always was, and this was, of course, for our benefit. Since Jesus came, though, God has completely taken away Satan’s ability to keep the nations in the dark. We know this is true because 1.) Jesus commanded us to take the Gospel to the nations (everywhere), making disciples and baptizing in His name, and 2.) we see people coming to Christ everywhere.

In order to know with certainty that satan has been loosed, we simply look for signs that indicate he is deceiving the nations again.

Well, good luck. Ironically — because this is your argument… or you think it is anyway — reality, since Jesus’s ascension and Pentecost is totally against that idea.

Except he has never stopped deceiving nations to begin with. That's pretty obvious if we compare things per the past 2000 years with that of reality. Clearly, from the time of the cross through now, satan has never stopped deceiving the nations.

LOL! Sorry; don’t mean to laugh… Really, I don’t.

How then is one supposed to look for signs that indicate his little season has begun, if he has never stopped deceiving the nations to begin with?

As I have said, we can’t really know when that happens, but we can know that the time is near when we see large numbers of Jews start to acknowledge and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior… God’s Christ, the Messiah. There are Jews coming to Christ now, but not in huge numbers yet. It may have begun, but I believe not yet. So, in my opinion, Satan is still bound. But the time may be — may be — very short, even from our perspective.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[rwb]

Right, and the partial hardening now on Israel is removed. All of God's elect.

Where we differ, I believe the hardening in part must be removed before the last of the Gentiles come in. The time to be saved for all people is now. This is the time given the Church, as Satan is sealed in the pit when the elect of God from every nation shall be saved.

Grace & Peace to you as well!

 

[grafted branch]

As I have said, we can’t really know when that happens, but we can know that the time is near when we see large numbers of Jews start to acknowledge and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior… God’s Christ, the Messiah.

Determining if Jews are claiming Christ as their Savior isn’t something that can be accurately accomplished. Also determining what constitutes a large number of Jews is impossible.

The current world population that identifies as Jewish is approximately 16,783,000. First off what is a large number? Anything over 50%? In Acts 1:41 3,000 were added and Acts 1:47 the Lord added daily. Is this a large amount?

In 1973 an organization started called Jews for Jesus and if you go to their website you can see they are growing and have been adding to their organization every year. It could very well be that a large number of Jews have already turned to Jesus but who’s keeping track and who knows how many are actually saved?

The next problem is what exactly is a Jew that the Bible is referring to? From Chabad.org here’s what they say about being a Jew.



The Code of Jewish Law clearly states that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father’s lineage (or whatever else may show up in a DNA test), while the child of a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish. Matrilineal descent has been a fundamental principle of Torah since the Jewish people came into existence.
And here’s perhaps the greatest mystery of Jewishness: Once in, there’s no way out. You can join the team, you can fumble the ball, but you can’t quit. No one can throw you out—not even G‑d.
Throughout the Tanach, we find Jews breaking every facet of their covenant with G‑d, joining and forming all sorts of idolatrous cults and heathen practices. Yet when the prophets chide them, they are called “My people, Israel.”
Unlike a race, you can get in, but unlike religion, once you’re in you can’t get out.



The 16,783,000 people who currently identify as Jews certainly contains some who already believe in Jesus (people who are part of Jews for Jesus still identify as Jews). The total number of Jews really can’t be known because if a Jewish mother no longer identifies as a Jew then both her and her offspring would still technically be Jews but no one is keeping track of this information. For all I know, both you and I could be Jews without even knowing it.

Your statement “when we see large numbers of Jews start to acknowledge and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior” sounds good on the surface but it can never be determined.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Hebrews 10:25 as ye see the day approaching.

How can you see the day approaching or stay out of darkness if no one can keep track of how many Jews are believing in Jesus?