And you do a good job of convincing me that Amil is not the correct view.
Can a tare become saved?
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About these tares planted by Satan, who somehow make it into the church. They can be a source of great friction and wrangling by men against the truth. As posted above about these false teachers, they are treacherous and can speak smooth and oily words deceiving the simple minded.
I have known just a few in decades and they tear up the true sheep.
All the ones who leave, John the apostle declares were NOT of us, they are antichrists. That would be those who departed the faith in unbelief.
In other words, they were NOT OF GOD. The Holy Spirit was not living inside of them. They had never been converted. They were outwardly professing, Paul calls them false brethren.
1 John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
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2 Corinthians 11:25-27 New King James Version
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—
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They really are satanic.
And I suppose such also deceive other tares in churches, but God know those who are His, and His promise is they will continue on in genuine faith. Entire cult churches exist, as we well know.
Romans 16
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
I have known just a few in decades and they tear up the true sheep.
All the ones who leave, John the apostle declares were NOT of us, they are antichrists. That would be those who departed the faith in unbelief.
In other words, they were NOT OF GOD. The Holy Spirit was not living inside of them. They had never been converted. They were outwardly professing, Paul calls them false brethren.
1 John 2
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
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2 Corinthians 11:25-27 New King James Version
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—
**********************************
They really are satanic.
And I suppose such also deceive other tares in churches, but God know those who are His, and His promise is they will continue on in genuine faith. Entire cult churches exist, as we well know.
Romans 16
Avoid Divisive Persons
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord [d]Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and [e]simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
There's a problem with the question. You assume that people around the world today are either wheat or tares.
The verses written in the 1st century applied to Israel/Edom at that time. History tells us the Edomites had merged into Israel. They self-identified as Israelites. But they weren't truly. The parable foretells a sorting that would weed out the Edomites from the real Israelites. That happened already.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ok, thanks for that view, I appreciate it. This is the first time I have heard about this, I’m going need to take a closer look at it before I can make any comments about it.
One thing I can say for now though is I do agree it applies to the first century, which can be used as instruction and doctrine but not directly applicable for us today.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nope. Here's where we strongly disagree. In my view, it was prior to about 33 AD that there were different burdens on Jews than there were on Gentiles and there has never been different burdens on Jews than there were on Gentiles in the church because there is "neither Jew nor Gentile" in the church.
Dude, who cares what people did after the old covenant was made obsolete by the blood of Christ?! Nothing can change the fact that it was made obsolete by His blood no matter what happened after that. I don't know why you can't understand that. No one was obligated to be under the old covenant after it was made obsolete. Did it take some time for the Jews to realize that? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it was already true even before many of them realized it.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Goodness sakes, where did I say that? Nowhere. No, what that means, if one person is correct rather than both being wrong, is that one is getting his or her understanding from the Holy Spirit and one is not. It's possible to have the Holy Spirit but to neglect to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding at times. All I see from you is talk about human logic, which is fallible. Do you ask God for wisdom about these things (James 1:5-7)?
So, I am supposed to try to kill anyone who I believe is a tare? That's what I'm getting from what you're saying. It may very well not be what you're saying at all, but that's how it comes across.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Well, I guess we both do a good job of something when talking to each other. Not exactly what we're hoping for, though.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Not in the least.
Remember though the believer is lost in time until they get saved- their salvation is assured because God said this:
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
the believer is also chosen to be holy and without blame before God founded the world.
Acts 15:28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Who am I supposed to believe, you or the Holy Spirit?
Well I think the book of Acts is extremely important as it gives details about what happened and what people did just after the old covenant became invalid.
Nope, you’re supposed to recognize that the tares were people who held onto the old covenant after the cross. As I said the problems only arise when you place all the unsaved as being tares.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, so you are talking about how it is from God's perspective, so when we talk about this we need to specify what perspective we're talking about. Our temporal, real time perspective or God's eternal perspective.
You had said this:
So, in Matthew 13:38 Jesus described the tares as being the children of the wicked one (the evil). I showed how John described all unsaved sinners as being children of the devil in 1 John 3:8-10. So, from a real time perspective someone who is currently a child of the devil (an unsaved sinner) obviously can repent and become saved and a child of the kingdom (wheat) instead. But, from God's perspective the person who ends up being a child of the kingdom even after previously being a child of the devil is counted as wheat.Ronald Nolette said:
So, it makes sense that we should look at the parable from that perspective instead of from a temporal real time perspective or else it can cause confusion since the parable gives no indication of the tares being able to turn into wheat despite the fact that children of the devil can repent and become children of the kingdom.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We both are supposed to believe the Holy Spirit and both believe that is what we are doing. And, yet, we do not interpret that passage the same.
How about you try interpreting the passage correctly in context without it causing contradictions with any other scripture? Did you consider that? Why would that passage indicate that they were still under obligation to be under the old covenant while others say otherwise? Does that not matter to you? Are contradictions okay with you?
Read the passage again. Where does it say that they were obligated to continue keeping all 613 commandments of the law of Moses? I don't see that there. I see the mention of just a few "necessary things" that they should abstain from doing. It's quite a stretch to take that to mean that they were being told to follow all 613 commandments of the law of Moses. You are interpreting the passage with extreme doctrinal bias while not taking other scripture which says that the old covenant was made obsolete (no longer in effect, dead, useless, not required) by the blood of Christ.
And where does it say anyone was required to continue being under the old covenant instead of the new covenant after the death of Christ? It surely does not say that in Acts 15:28-29!
Where is that indicated? It says they are children of the wicked one, not children of the old covenant.
The problems arise when you interpret a passage in such a way that contradicts other passages, which is exactly what you're doing with your interpretation of the parable.
We know the old covenant didn’t just vanish after the cross because Hebrews 8:13 says it was ready to vanish at the time it was written. So we have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
We know that James, Peter, and John were to go to the circumcision while Paul and Barnabas to the heathen in Galatians 2:9 and we are never told that agreement was rescind. We have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
Then in Acts 21:20 James says there were many thousands of Jews which were zealous for the law and believed. We have to make sure we don’t contradict that verse.
I didn’t say it was a requirement. If a person wanted to remain with their fellow Jews they would’ve voluntarily put themselves under the law else they wouldn’t have been allowed to remain with them. Again what are you thinking? Could a Jew just eat bacon and all the other Jews say it wasn’t an issue?
1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
Some people thought it offensive to eat bacon and it would’ve made them to offend if they did eat bacon. Hello! The old covenant didn’t just go away after the cross, there was a transition period.
So why are you not allowing a view, that you think is in contradiction, to grow with the rest of the wheat on this forum? Don’t you follow your own beliefs on how the parable is to be interpreted?
PS95
Well-Known Member
99.9% of JWs will tell you they are not born again. They don't believe that anyone is, but their group who go to heaven to rule over them.
JWs "marvel" at being born a new of the spirit. It's more like they scoff at the thought.
They also say that they are not in the New Covenant and see belowfor some more.
I'd say what you have in common with JWs is really only sleep in afterlife. Here is a shortlist for insight--
www.christianityboard.com
JWs "marvel" at being born a new of the spirit. It's more like they scoff at the thought.
They also say that they are not in the New Covenant and see belowfor some more.
I'd say what you have in common with JWs is really only sleep in afterlife. Here is a shortlist for insight--
Dont belong to Jesus Christ.
When a JW (Jehovahs witness) comes to your door many are left confused and frustrated unable to pinpoint what the problem was exactly. Here is a list of some things Jws HAPPILY DENY. (and you can not possibly have either). They will try to convert you to their other hope, the "earthly class"...
www.christianityboard.com
From Blindness to Freedom to Hope.
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have m…brakelite.wordpress.com
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Read the verse again.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Do you differentiate between the old covenant being made obsolete and disappearing? The verse clearly indicates that it had been previously made obsolete before this was written but was going to "soon disappear".
The first thing to determine is what does it mean for the old covenant to be made obsolete?
obsolete (adjective): no longer produced or used; out of date.
It means the old covenant was out of date and no longer in effect when Jesus shed His blood to establish the new covenant. The old covenant was made useless and no longer in force. It was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). It was dead.
So, then what does it mean that it had not yet disappeared? All that means is that the leftover traces of the dead and obsolete old covenant were still in view, such as the temple buildings where the old covenant sacrifices were performed. That's all that means.
To try to say that the old covenant was still in effect after Christ's death is an insult to what Christ's death accomplished. Scripture says He took away the first (old) covenant when He established the second (new) covenant (Hebrews 8:6-7, Hebrews 10:9-10).
What are you thinking that proves? That proves nothing in relation to what we're talking about.
That's right. Does that verse say they were required to keep all 613 commandments of the law? No. You keep reading things into these verses that aren't there. Them being zealous for the law does not mean they were under the old covenant. It took some time for them to realize that the new covenant replaced the old covenant and set them free from having to try to keep all those commandments, which no one but Jesus can do.
What are you thinking by saying the imaginary old covenant age (scripture never refers to such a thing) ended in 70 AD when it's clear that the old covenant was made obsolete in about 33 AD instead?
Nonsense! You are blatantly contradicting the scriptures which say it was made obsolete at the cross! Why are you doing that? Do you actually think that the animal sacrifices of the old covenant were still necessary after Christ made His once for all sacrifice by shedding His blood of the new covenant?
LOL. What are you talking about? You think I should kill everyone who disagrees with me about this? LOL. I'm kidding, but I truly have no idea of what you're talking about here.
Huh? Of course. In my view there are both saved people (children of the kingdom, wheat) and unsaved people (children of the wicked one, tares) in the world and that is what Jesus wants to allow to be the case until the end of the age when He will return and have the tares cast into the fire while the wheat inherit "the kingdom of their Father".
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
In the 2nd century BC, the Jewish king John Hyrcanus forcibly converted the Edomites (Idumeans) to Judaism. The Edomites embraced Judaism, and integrated themselves into Judea. The Herodian dynasty were Edomites and eventually replaced the Hasmoneans as the kings over Judah (at Caesar's command). The Idumeans were very pious in their observation of the Jewish Law, and eager to be seen as "legitimate" Jews. This is perhaps why Herod's biggest building project was the re-modeling of the Jewish temple. During the Roman conflict, they took sides with the Jewish Zealot faction, which basically got them killed by the Romans.
Anyhow, the Bible doesn't make a lot of direct references to the "Edomite problem" likely because it was dangerous to do so while there were still Herodian kings in power. There are a number of indirect references to it, such as this parable, or Jesus calling Nathanael "an Israelite indeed" hinting that some people weren't, or Paul saying that "not all Israel" is really Israel.
In secular literature from the period, the two great Pharisees Hillel and Shammai had a notable argument over "who is a true Israelite?" which also addresses the problem somewhat indirectly. Jesus gives his own take on the well-known question in John 6-8.
If you want to search it out for yourself, I'd recommend reading about John Hyrcanus, Antipater, Herod, Idumeans, and the First Jewish-Roman War.
HYRCANUS, JOHN (JOHANAN) I. - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
Here’s the thing, you constantly telling others why their view is incorrect and how they need to see the Amil view and not allowing a different view to grow, contradicts your interpretation of the parable which specifically says to allow tares to grow together. It’s kinda like a fat pastor giving a sermon on how to have self control and not be a glutton. It just doesn’t work.
For me to even consider your view any further you need to get rid of the obvious contradiction.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Never have I said that no one should be allowed to have any other view but Amill. Obviously, I believe Amill is true and argue in favor of it, but it's not an essential doctrine for salvation and I would never say that no one should be allowed to believe otherwise.
You have created a contradiction in your own imagination. I have never stated what you're saying. You misrepresent my view and me in general often and I wish you would stop doing that.
You're coming across like you are trying to make this into me supposedly saying that the wheat are Amills and the tares are Premills and Postmills or some nonsense like that. Stop it.
In the parable the servants are told to allow the tares and the wheat to both grow/increase. All I see is repeated attempts to thwart the views of others. That isn’t allowing other views to increase. If a Premil wants to make a post about how Satan isn’t bound you will argue against that view point from every angle you can. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with doing that but it most certainly is not allowing their view to increase. You do everything you can to make sure it doesn’t increase.
That is why I see you in contradiction to your own view of the parable. Not that others on this forum are tares but you treat them worse than tares. These people are our brothers and sisters. If someone were to come on here and argue that God doesn’t exist would you allow that view to grow and increase? Like I said, a fat pastor preaching on gluttony.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is your personal testimony Brakelite…..one of hundreds that I have heard…and yet to whom did this experience lead you?.….”To Christ”….I guess would be your obvious answer, but when he was on earth, where did Jesus direct the people who listened to him? He was there correcting the corrupted teachings of the religious leaders of his own faith. (Matt 15:7-9) These eventually separated themselves from the Jewish religion that had become irretrievably corrupted, and unacceptable to the God with whom he had come to reacquaint his fellow Jews. Only the “lost sheep” responded…..not the mainstream believers who stuck to what they knew….many of whom joined in the demand for Jesus execution, cursing themselves and their children in the process. (Matt 27:25).From Blindness to Freedom to Hope.
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have m…
To the other posters on this thread, let me just offer some basic truths….
After Jesus’ death, the apostles carried on his work under much pressure from the religious establishment….the very ones who had demanded the murder of their own Messiah, because he didn’t fit their model of a strong leader who would topple Roman domination and free the Jewish people and establish his kingdom on earth with them in all the vital roles…..”a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. (Exodus 19:3-6) Christ’s teachings established a separate “people for his name”, that included faithful and obedient Jews, as a well as gentiles who came to Christ. (Acts 10:34-35; Acts 15:14)
Where did the apostles direct those who responded to their teachings? To the the gatherings of the increasing number of “Christians”. Congregations were formed as the “good news” reached more and more people….from among “the Jews first”, then to the gentiles who also responded to Christ’s teachings.
The Christians gradually withdrew from the corrupted worship of the Jews, and embraced people of the nations as brother and sisters….who also abandoned their false worship. They were not permitted to bring their false religious ideas into Christianity.
Do you see an historical pattern? God has always had his “people”…..from the time of Israel’s adoption as a nation descended from Abraham at Mt Sinai, he has kept his worshippers separated from those whose worship was unacceptable.
In a world ruled by God’s adversary, satan has seen to it that a multitude of false religions were set up all over the world, but God’s people have always been kept separated by the fact that the Scriptures prevented them from adopting false worship, as if it were true worship. This is why so many who identify as “Christians” have joined the world in celebrating things Jesus would never have approved of. (2 Cor 6:14-18)
If we look closely, we see that false religion maintains a core of beliefs that Jesus would have rejected as things he never taught…..counterfeit Christianity, as well as a plethora of others religions, base their entire system of worship on these lies….
1) Worship of a multiplicity of gods.….when the Jews were taught that “Yahweh” was “one” God. (Deut 6:4)
Israel alone worshipped one “Almighty God” whose name was to be carried through all generations. (Exodus 3:15) They failed to maintain this command.
2) That humans have an immortal soul that departs from the body at death, and goes to destinations of either a heavenly bliss, or to the dark caverns of a fiery hell.
Jesus never taught such a thing. Death for a Jew was simply the opposite of life. The dead are not conscious. They have not gone anywhere, and cannot do anything. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Eccl 3:19-20)
There are no such things as the ‘spirits of the dead’….the only spirits who communicate with humans, are demons, impersonating the dead to support the first lie that satan told…”you surely will not die”.
God’s people we warned not to participate in any form of spiritism. (Deut 18:9-12)
Resurrection is what Jews were taught. (John 5:28-29) This was a restoration of life, rather than a continuation of it.
3) The worship of a cruel and demanding god who tortures the souls of people for all eternity in a hell of eternal conscious torment. Jesus came to show us God’s true personality, which is the opposite to one who would relish eternal torture in flames as a suitable punishment for any crime. Punishment for crimes under God’s law, were to fit the seriousness of the offense. None involved torture. Some penalties were to solicit repentance. In this “hell” there is no room for repentance, and therefore no justice is served by it.
The same theme is carried through all false religion, as these are the trademarks of Satan’s global system of false worship. He exploits mankind’s spiritual need by giving them spiritistic counterfeits instead.
What did Jesus and his apostles warn about? …..”weeds among the wheat”…….growing in the same “world”, but not necessarily in the same building, assuming that people’s various religions have a building. Many today have a sole occupant. The “building” identified the god(s) worshipped by its structure, and by the ceremonies or rituals carried out there.
Most of the established religions in the world have their own versions of a temple, a priesthood and prayers, reflecting Israel’s model. So mimicry is part of Satan’s world empire of false worship. This makes it difficult to tell the “wheat from the weeds” for many….they all look very similar. But the “wheat”, at the “harvest time“ do not resemble the “weeds” at all…they are clearly distinguishable because of what they refuse to do, not how close they can get to “the world” without it being obvious. (John 17:16; John 18:36)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
For goodness sakes, the parable has nothing to do with this whatsoever. It has to do with children of the kingdom in contrast to children of the wicked one, not Amills in contrast with Premills and Postmils.
So what? What is your problem? You argue in favor of your preterist views. It's okay for you to do that, but not for me to argue for what I believe? What in the world is going on here?
Oh, now you say that. Disregard what I said above. Maybe try to lead with this next time. LOL.
What does that even mean? Why would I want views that I strongly disagree with to increase? What does this have to do with the parable? Absolutely nothing.
So what? Why would I want something that I consider to be false doctrine to increase? This is one of the strangest discussions I've ever been part of in my life.
What?! What you're talking about doesn't even have anything to do with the parable.
Holy goodness, dude. Disagreeing with people is treating them worse than tares? This is a forum where debate is expected. Sharing my opinions is not a case of mistreating people. If things get personal, sure, that's wrong. And I have admitted as such and have been making an effort to cut down on that type of thing.
No idea what you're talking about, dude. I never said that Premills or Postmills like you are not my brothers and sisters. Never. You are talking to a strawman here and not to me.
As for allowing someone's argument that God doesn't exist to grow? Of course I wouldn't. Why would I? I'm not interested in letting anything that I see as false grow. And I'm talking about the doctrines or beliefs themselves, not the people who believe in them.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I don't accept any of the above either. But you left two things out that the majority of Christendom has adopted and that are based on tradition as opposed to scripture. And both of them your church accepts. Sunday sacredness and an earthly paradise at the second coming. You aren't that different or unique after all.
As for my testimony. It was real. No-one can argue against that. I was literally born again of the Spirit of God and became a new creature. As have all other true believers. Our experiences may be different. But then result is the same. Union with Christ and His Father. There are things of course we all need to learn. Truth doesn't come in one gulp else we be overwhelmed. But my experience...my past... The way God led me throughout my life and provided for every contingency along the way, I cannot deny. It has nothing to do with theology, philosophy, or doctrine. It was always about relationship.
"I know Him in Whom I believe".
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