Calvinism is a Cult

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Jane_Doe22

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The trouble is that the same tired arguments in defense of Calvinism come from all its adherents. Not to say that they are not Christians, but rather Christians who have been deceived and blinded to the truth -- BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. To me the existence of a cultic mentality is when someone refuses to believe what is clearly stated in Scripture, and reverts back to their false teachings.

Let's take just one Scripture: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Every English translation in this regard is more or less the same. And every concordance and lexicon regarding the Greek kosmos agrees that in these verses "world" means all the inhabitants of the earth, the human race, the world of humanity. But Calvinists adamantly deny that, since to admit that that is true means to reject and abandon Five Point Calvinism.
I would agree that complete refusal to discuss things is a cultic trait. But I have met some Calvinists (even on this site) who are completely ok with discussing things. We have opposite viewpoints, but they are willing to talk and a civil conversations.

I would not say having the same old tired arguments is a cultic trait. An argument being old just means it's old, doesn't imply anything about being good or bad or how people act.
 

CoreIssue

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For me, it's not the *what* is believed but rather *how* it is believed that makes an individual / group show cultic tendencies-- "cultic" being defined the common tongue sociological way, not in way "anti cult" groups define it. This like refusing to discuss information (even if there are different opinions), idolizing a leader (viewing them as Christ-like perfect 100% of the time), fear-based motivations (threats of fire/death/etc), phobia of the "other", etc. These can be displayed on a group-scale, but much more commonly you'll find individuals who show these tendencies.

I do not find Calvinism itself to be a cult. I do PASSIONATELY disagree with it, and find to to be completely the opposite of Christ's teachings. But do not at all find the "cult" label to be matching the group as a whole. Individuals: yes I have found Calvinist individuals who display cultic tendencies, but I've also found those same type of individuals in every other group I've studied.

Of course considering you belong to a cult.
 

justbyfaith

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The only thing that I have contended for in the past that is Calvinistic has been the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints.

Even in that argument, it becomes clear that OSAS is a falsehood, but that POTS is indeed feasible within the realm of scriptural truth.

My key verses on the subject are 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:17, with the concept that abiding is salvation. It does indeed provide for eternal security / absolute assurance of salvation; as long as you are living a holy life.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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^This is a cultic type answer: downplaying and dismissing anyone who is not in the "in" group.

Again: such behaviors are not a Calvinism-thing per say. I've encountered these type of behaviors in some individuals in every group I've studied.
what I find cultic is an aversion to scripture...have you posted any scripture recently?
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Calvinism redefined salvation and God. That makes it a cult.[/QUOTE]
CoreIssue,
[I agree with the widely held belief Calvinism is a cult.
The God of Calvinism does not resemble the God of the Bible.
The salvation of Calvinism is not biblical.]

Core issue accused Calvinists of not having a God who resembles the BIBLICAL GOD

When a biblical statement was given of the Biblical God ,Coreissue cannot back up his accusation 8 pages into the thread. let's help him out;) COREISSUE, show us here how this does not describe the biblical God,,,go over section by section and show us which portions show your belief, or better yet, reveal where you lack understanding.:oops:


Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity

1]._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself;

2]a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;

3]who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory;

4]most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;

5]the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10;Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )



6]._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient,

7]not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them;

8]he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,

9]and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth;

10]in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain;

11]he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands;

12]to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5;Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

13.]In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided:

14]the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;


15]the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being,

16]but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26;Galatians 4:6 )
 

Mjh29

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Sure, I'll pitch in ;)

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts,or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments,hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4, 6, Jer 10:10; 1 Thes 1:9., Job 11:7-9; 26:14. , John 4:24. , 1 Tim 1:17. , Deut 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39. , Acts 14:11, 15. , Mal 3:6; James 1:17., 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:23-24. , Psa 90:2; 1 Tim 1:17. , Psa 145:3. ,Gen 17:1; Rev 4:8. , Rom 16:27. , Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8. , Psa 115:3. , Exod 3:14. , Eph 1:11. , Prov 16:4; Rom 11:36. , 1 John 4:8, 16., Exod 34:6-7. , Heb 11:6. , Neh 9:32-33. , Psa 5:5-6. , Exod 34:7; Nahum 1:2-3.

II. God has all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto he himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleases. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

John 5:26. , Acts 7:2. , Psa 119:68. , Rom 9:5; 1 Tim 6:15. , Acts 17:24-25. , Job 22:2-3. , Rom 11:36. Dan 4:25, 35; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 4:11. , Heb 4:13. , Psa 147:5; Rom 11:33-34. , Ezek 11:5; Acts 15:18. Psa 145:17; Rom 7:12. , Rev 5:12-14.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Mat 3:16-17; 28:19; 2 Cor 13:14; 1 John 5:7. , John 1:14, 18. , John 15:26; Gal 4:6.
 

Enoch111

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If God meant "all the believing" He would have said so plainly.

The fact that absolutely no Bible version -- including the Calvinistic Geneva Bible (in spite of its footnotes) -- has this translation, and that speaks for itself. They dared not change the Word of God, but they tried to reinterpret it.

GENEVA BIBLE
16 For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

But yours is an attempt to wrest the Scriptures -- TWIST THEIR MEANING. And as Peter says, the scoffers wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction. Those who promote false doctrines -- of whatever stripe -- will give account for perverting the Gospel.
 

Jane_Doe22

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what I find cultic is an aversion to scripture...have you posted any scripture recently?
The conversation between you and I was me ask you to explain your beliefs. Hence my being relatively quiet, listening to when you explain your perspective, and not quoting much of anything.

Conversations focused on comfort or celebration or just open Gospel discussion are where I readily quote scripture.
 

Mjh29

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If God meant "all the believing" He would have said so plainly.

The fact that absolutely no Bible version -- including the Calvinistic Geneva Bible (in spite of its footnotes) -- has this translation, and that speaks for itself. They dared not change the Word of God, but they tried to reinterpret it.

GENEVA BIBLE
16 For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

But yours is an attempt to wrest the Scriptures -- TWIST THEIR MEANING. And as Peter says, the scoffers wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction. Those who promote false doctrines -- of whatever stripe -- will give account for perverting the Gospel.

1.) I can think of a translation off the top of my head; the Greek Interlinear
2.) MY Geneva Bible does have something more close to the greek.The online version is a bit different

3.) What I do is I STUDY Scripture, not read into it. Allow my to elaborate. I'm sure that most people would be satisfied with your answer, but it isnt enough for me. When I see a verse like John 3:16, the very first thing that comes ti my head it to check the original Greek or Hebrew. That is not reading into a verse, which means trying to make it say something it doesn't. That is trying to get a good understanding of if the original really meant to convey that message. I come to find out that inf fact it meant all the believing in the Greek. As if to confirm this, not 5 verses down, we are given John 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

No man would go to the light of his own accord. None. They were evil, and every deedmof theirs was evil. Now, you will either accept what scripture teaches or (highly more likely) attempt to explain to me what this means by casting your views upon Scripture, which is called TWISTING of Scriptures.

So please do explain; How could WHOSOEVER come to Christ when ALL MEN hate the light and love the dark?
 
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justbyfaith

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The heavenly Father draws them to Christ.

He goes one step short of regenerating them (since we have access by faith into this (regenerating) grace wherein we stand) and enables them to make an unhindered choice to either receive or reject Christ.

He know who will do this and who will not; and chooses accordingly from before the foundation of the world.
 

Mjh29

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The heavenly Father draws them to Christ.

He goes one step short of regenerating them (since we have access by faith into this (regenerating) grace wherein we stand) and enables them to make an unhindered choice to either receive or reject Christ.

He know who will do this and who will not; and chooses accordingly from before the foundation of the world.

So they are doubly saved by works righteousness; God chose them because of their works and they are ultimately saved because of their works?!
 
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amadeus

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People disagree until they study the scripture.
Actually some will begin to, or continue to, disagree after they have studied the scripture. Study alone is NOT the road to truth:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
 
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amadeus

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Why aren't all saved if all have free will?
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
 
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justbyfaith

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So they are doubly saved by works righteousness; God chose them because of their works and they are ultimately saved because of their works?!
The only thing I can do for you is to pray that the Lord will open your eyes...
 

Mjh29

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The only thing I can do for you is to pray that the Lord will open your eyes...

What good would that do? I still have to make the final choice anyways!

.... but the prayers are much appreciated.
 

SovereignGrace

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The heavenly Father draws them to Christ.

He goes one step short of regenerating them (since we have access by faith into this (regenerating) grace wherein we stand) and enables them to make an unhindered choice to either receive or reject Christ.

He know who will do this and who will not; and chooses accordingly from before the foundation of the world.

2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.[Psalm 14]

God sees that there are none who seek Him, neither do they understand. The reason why He knows who will be saved is because He chose them from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]
 

justbyfaith

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What good would that do? I still have to make the final choice anyways!

.... but the prayers are much appreciated.
A person cannot come to Christ (or otherwise receive a change of opinion towards truth) unless the Holy Spirit convicts and/or draws them.
 

justbyfaith

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2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.[Psalm 14]

God sees that there are none who seek Him, neither do they understand. The reason why He knows who will be saved is because He chose them from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]
That implies that He chose others to damnation.