Is Dispensationalism a valid way to interpret scripture?

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Willie T

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It's not about a relationship with the fairy godmother granting a wish and then disappearing; it's about a family type relationship with The Father and The Son. When a son does wrong, does he try to hide what he did from his father, or does he go to his father and say he's sorry, and that he won't do it again? And the father who is just, will forgive the son who comes to him asking forgiveness, and thus the family relationship is preserved.

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

Heb 12:7-8
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
KJV
A truly loving father (such as the prodigal son had) understands when his boy is sorry, and does not have to have his son come groveling to him, insisting that the boy beg to be forgiven. The father has long before forgiven his son.
 

farouk

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farouk, Read Romans 11. The Church started with Jews, and then Gentiles were added, because of the abundance of Jews that rejected Christ, and the Jews were punished with partial blindness. But there will come a day when the last Gentile that is numbered to come into the Church is at an end, and then the blindness of Israel will be lifted. And then the remaining Jews will come into the CHURCH. There is only one Church/one Bride of Christ. And only one second coming of Christ for His Bride.

P.S. InkM is on tonight.
I don't quite see it that way. But thanks.
 

Davy

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A truly loving father (such as the prodigal son had) understands when his boy is sorry, and does not have to have his son come groveling to him, insisting that the boy beg to be forgiven. The father has long before forgiven his son.

If when you say the prayer in Luke 11 where our Lord Jesus told us how... to pray is "groveling" to you, then you have a real problem with Jesus' Authority. Because that prayer asks Him forgiveness of our sins.
 

tzcho2

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Dispensationalism seeks to give an explanation of scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
All views must give such an explanation.
However, dispensationalism fragments the scripture.
It divides people that God has put together....Israel and the Church.
It doesn't fragment the scripture at all. It reads & understands scripture as it is written. God has a plan for His chosen people , scripture states Israel is the natural tree, believing gentiles are the grafted branches from the wild tree. Romans 11
 

Enoch111

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And then the remaining Jews will come into the CHURCH.
That is incorrect. After the Rapture and after the Second Coming of Christ, all the Jews worldwide will be gathered supernaturally to Israel, and a believing remnant will be established in the land of *greater Israel* (between the Nile and the Euphrates) as the twelve tribes of Israel, with David as prince and Christ as King. These Jews will not be a part of the Church (which is redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).
 

Willie T

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If when you say the prayer in Luke 11 where our Lord Jesus told us how... to pray is "groveling" to you, then you have a real problem with Jesus' Authority. Because that prayer asks Him forgiveness of our sins.
You know that us being required to repeatedly ask forgiveness isn't what it says.
 

CharismaticLady

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That is incorrect. After the Rapture and after the Second Coming of Christ, all the Jews worldwide will be gathered supernaturally to Israel, and a believing remnant will be established in the land of *greater Israel* (between the Nile and the Euphrates) as the twelve tribes of Israel, with David as prince and Christ as King. These Jews will not be a part of the Church (which is redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).

Where did you get that David will be prince?
 

Enoch111

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Where did you get that David will be prince?
Several passages but a plain statement of fact is found in Ezekiel 37.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

David is the servant of both God and Christ, and David called Jesus "Lord" ("The LORD said unto my Lord...). While David is called "king" in v 24, he is called "prince" in v 25. Those are two different Hebrew words, but Christ is King over David in the Millennium and beyond ("for ever"). God promised David personally that He would establish an eternal throne for David, so the above confirms it: And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (2 Sam 7:16).
 

CharismaticLady

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Several passages but a plain statement of fact is found in Ezekiel 37.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

David is the servant of both God and Christ, and David called Jesus "Lord" ("The LORD said unto my Lord...). While David is called "king" in v 24, he is called "prince" in v 25. Those are two different Hebrew words, but Christ is King over David in the Millennium and beyond ("for ever"). God promised David personally that He would establish an eternal throne for David, so the above confirms it: And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (2 Sam 7:16).

Thanks. :)
 

CharismaticLady

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That is exactly... what it says. "When you pray..." (Luke 11:2-4).

You two are talking about two different things, and you are both right for your own lane.

If Willy believes as I do, he is talking about repentance from the carnal nature that we inherited from Adam. That is what becoming born again of the Spirit is all about. That is one repentance, and one new birth. We have a new nature that is called a divine nature. It does not commit willful sins of lawlessness. Romans 6:2 says we are dead to sin. That is about this type of sin.

But we still can commit trespasses against each other unwittingly, hurting each other's feelings and such. That is what Luke 11:2-4 is talking about, and the key to our trespasses being forgiven is our forgiveness of others.

Unfortunately, Davy, you haven't been able to see the difference in these two kinds of sins. I hope you are willing to learn. 1 John 5:16-17 shows sins unto death (willful lawlessness) (Willy's post), and sins not unto death (trespasses) (your post).
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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It doesn't fragment the scripture at all. It reads & understands scripture as it is written. God has a plan for His chosen people , scripture states Israel is the natural tree, believing gentiles are the grafted branches from the wild tree. Romans 11
Hello my friend TZ,
Do you think the new covenant in Hebrews 8 is for Christians?
Do you think we have come unto The heavenly Zion and Jerusalem?Hebrews12:22-29?
 

Davy

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You two are talking about two different things, and you are both right for your own lane.

Well, not really, because we both are talking about sin after... having believed and been baptized. You are the one who is trying to introduce the idea of our first repentance and baptism. That first repentance and baptism was for sins that are past, according to Apostle Paul.


If Willy believes as I do, he is talking about repentance from the carnal nature that we inherited from Adam. That is what becoming born again of the Spirit is all about. That is one repentance, and one new birth. We have a new nature that is called a divine nature. It does not commit willful sins of lawlessness. Romans 6:2 says we are dead to sin. That is about this type of sin.

I don't... think... you're really up to speed on men's doctrines within today's Grace Movement. Some of those Churches are teaching no further repentance is needed after having believed on Jesus and been baptized. Some of them even treat it as if it were blasphemy to ask Him forgiveness for a sin committed after having become a Christian. That kind of doctrine is from devils, and goes directly against 1 John 1 and Luke 11.

As for your quote from Rom.6:2, you are not interpreting it correctly. You have to keep that verse with the flow of that Chapter. And in that Chapter Apostle Paul is telling us to reckon ourselves as dead to sin, while commanding us to not let sin reign in our mortal body, meaning to be watchful against sin. It does not mean we can no longer sin as believers. Paul is not saying that. Even the Greek for "reckon" in Rom.6:11 means exactly that, suppose or think of ourselves as being dead to sin, not as though we literally are, but to reckon that we are. This because in Galatians 5 Paul made it clear that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we are dead to sin, meaning a condition based on our walk. If we don't, then he showed the result are those works of the flesh he listed.


But we still can commit trespasses against each other unwittingly, hurting each other's feelings and such. That is what Luke 11:2-4 is talking about, and the key to our trespasses being forgiven is our forgiveness of others.

Unwittingly? I just heard a witness from a brother the other day who at one time was so taken with a pretty girl at his work, that he was considering having an affair with her, was determined to do it, knowing that it was wrong, because it was at a time when his wife was cold towards him several months after she had a child. No, when we mess up, we do it good! We sin! And that's all there is to it. I could mention at least two TV preachers right now that had extra-marital affairs, which is the sin of adultery. Nah, those kind of things aren't done unwittingly. They are done because of lusts of the flesh, and that is what Apostle Paul commanded us to control and overcome.

In 1 Timothy 1, Apostle Paul even taught, as part of Christian Doctrine, that those who do those works of the flesh there he listed, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Unfortunately, Davy, you haven't been able to see the difference in these two kinds of sins. I hope you are willing to learn. 1 John 5:16-17 shows sins unto death (willful lawlessness) (Willy's post), and sins not unto death (trespasses) (your post).

What is unfortunate, for you, is that you are wanting to side with men's doctrines who try to write their own Bible instead of keeping to what God's Word actually says about these things. And I pointed to 1 John 1, which is about John telling us to continue to repent to Jesus of future sin, which so far you refuse to address.
 

CharismaticLady

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Well, not really, because we both are talking about sin after... having believed and been baptized. You are the one who is trying to introduce the idea of our first repentance and baptism. That first repentance and baptism was for sins that are past, according to Apostle Paul.




I don't... think... you're really up to speed on men's doctrines within today's Grace Movement. Some of those Churches are teaching no further repentance is needed after having believed on Jesus and been baptized. Some of them even treat it as if it were blasphemy to ask Him forgiveness for a sin committed after having become a Christian. That kind of doctrine is from devils, and goes directly against 1 John 1 and Luke 11.

As for your quote from Rom.6:2, you are not interpreting it correctly. You have to keep that verse with the flow of that Chapter. And in that Chapter Apostle Paul is telling us to reckon ourselves as dead to sin, while commanding us to not let sin reign in our mortal body, meaning to be watchful against sin. It does not mean we can no longer sin as believers. Paul is not saying that. Even the Greek for "reckon" in Rom.6:11 means exactly that, suppose or think of ourselves as being dead to sin, not as though we literally are, but to reckon that we are. This because in Galatians 5 Paul made it clear that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we are dead to sin, meaning a condition based on our walk. If we don't, then he showed the result are those works of the flesh he listed.




Unwittingly? I just heard a witness from a brother the other day who at one time was so taken with a pretty girl at his work, that he was considering having an affair with her, was determined to do it, knowing that it was wrong, because it was at a time when his wife was cold towards him several months after she had a child. No, when we mess up, we do it good! We sin! And that's all there is to it. I could mention at least two TV preachers right now that had extra-marital affairs, which is the sin of adultery. Nah, those kind of things aren't done unwittingly. They are done because of lusts of the flesh, and that is what Apostle Paul commanded us to control and overcome.

In 1 Timothy 1, Apostle Paul even taught, as part of Christian Doctrine, that those who do those works of the flesh there he listed, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.




What is unfortunate, for you, is that you are wanting to side with men's doctrines who try to write their own Bible instead of keeping to what God's Word actually says about these things. And I pointed to 1 John 1, which is about John telling us to continue to repent to Jesus of future sin, which so far you refuse to address.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. We cannot continue to sin willfully, but to reckon ourselves dead to sin. And as far as the "Grace movement's" beliefs. I agree with you again. But what you didn't address is once all our past sins are cleansed, do we still desire to sin again, or are we free from the desire? You make it sound like we are still carnal and it is only our own power through the will that can keep us from sinning willfully again.
 

Davy

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I understand what you are saying, and I agree. We cannot continue to sin willfully, but to reckon ourselves dead to sin. And as far as the "Grace movement's" beliefs. I agree with you again. But what you didn't address is once all our past sins are cleansed, do we still desire to sin again, or are we free from the desire? You make it sound like we are still carnal and it is only our own power through the will that can keep us from sinning willfully again.

Our Heavenly Father well knows how He made us on this earth with a flesh body, and He knows our difficulty in this flesh which doomed to perish. That is one of main reasons why He sent His Son to die on the cross for us, so as to defeat death and the devil for us, showing us that we need... God The Savior. He knows our struggle. That is also why He included in the Luke 11 prayer to ask to be led away from temptation. He knows we are tempted, mainly because of our flesh, as He also was tempted in the flesh.

Does He expect us to literally be... perfect and without sin like His Son Who was Perfect in the flesh? No, but we are to try... to be perfect, His well knowing that we will always fall short. Yet we are to strive to be. And that is why He gave us repentance to Him when we still mess up, and like Apostle John said, He then is just to forgive us. That's about maintaining the walk with Him. It is not the idea of first belief and being baptized again. It is about a continuing walk with Christ Jesus as our Saviour, showing that we need Him.
 

marks

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Even the Greek for "reckon" in Rom.6:11 means exactly that, suppose or think of ourselves as being dead to sin, not as though we literally are, but to reckon that we are.

Hi Davy,

I can't say I agree with this.

We are dead to sin, the chapter states that clearly.

But we don't always think we are, so we have to be told to count this as true . . . why? Because it is true.

Much love!
 
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