Is Dispensationalism a valid way to interpret scripture?

[prism]

If your approach to Scripture is essentially a literal one then you will favor dispensationalism (without the charts of 7 headed beasts and sensational 'left behind' scenarios).
OTOH, if you like to spiritualize every name and camel in the Book of Leviticus as well as every prophecy, then you will favor Amillennialism.
Ironically, the former tends to a heavenly outlook here on earth, while the latter tends to a 'kingdom here and now' mentality.

 

[Enoch111]

Why does it really matter either way..?
It changes nothing between ourselves and God..right?

Actually it does matter. Take the example of teaching others that Christians can forget about water baptism and the Lord's Supper. That would be teaching others to disobey Christ.

 

[Willie T]

I believe, basically, Dispensationalism is a "defeatist" outlook.

Let me explain.

They believe the world was set on a ticking, "timeclock" countdown to destruction when God made it, and that it is destined to end in a fiery explosion when the last designated day is finally reached. No other possibility. (Each generation, by the way, has always been just as completely certain as we are today in 2019, that THEIRS was the generation of that final day.)

Few Dispensationalists believe there is any possible way for mankind, as a society, to come to turn to God. Yes, they believe in individual Salvation, but that, they feel, is limited to 'converting' one single, isolated person at a time. Despite the Bible saying to take the Gospel to "all nations", that particular command gets interpreted as convincing only isolated individuals in those nations to believe in God. Throughout the Word we are consistently shown the changing of the heart of entire nations, but we seem to have missed that particular point. The Bible is all the time, talking about the belief of entire nations.

Dispensationalists have accepted the idea that the world was originally created to eventually become the nearly exclusively dominate domain of Satan, and they feel that is God's plan...… to give it all to the devil, rescue a small "remnant" with a Rapture, then blow up the whole place, His beautiful creation.

Others of us still feel that we were supposed to take the very first command of God, given to man in the garden, to heart, and continue doing that till He returns. (Go to Genesis 1:26 through Genesis 1:31 to read what God told us to do.) It is even reinforced, we believe, in Jesus' own words when He repeated a similar command through the Great Commission.

 

[Enoch111]

Others of us still feel that we were supposed to take the very first command of God, given to man in the garden, to heart, and continue doing that till He returns. (Go to Genesis 1:26 through Genesis 1:31 to read what God told us to do.)

Once Adam and Eve sinned they put a hold on all that, and were cast out of Eden. So sin and death entered into the world, and now "the whole world lieth in wickedness".

It is is only after the Second Coming of Christ that everything will be put right and Israel will flourish like the garden of Eden.

And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced,and are inhabited. (Ezek 36:35)

 

[Episkopos]

Yes indeed!

Now if that could be truly grasped by everyone.

One wonders why people wish to 'hang-on' to sin as they do. And cannot see that although our natural walk is not perfect...we slip and fall, ..spiritually we are sin-less because of the victory of Christ.

One cannot be spiritually sinless while actually sinful. That is what Gnosticism teaches.

The spiritual realm is there to displace this world...to bring a revolution of holiness and righteousness...not to have people have an imaginary connection to God through a make-believe spiritual status that doesn't affect this world.

This is a very dangerous teaching that would send the truth into a fantasy land of a false righteousness.

 

[charity]

Thanks...
I said that because on this thread it all seems to just be about Jews and Gentiles.

Sweet dreams

I was born near Uxbridge Middlesex, now called Slough.
Moved to Hasting when 14...married lived in Bexhill on Sea until we moved here at 34 . 1975

Hello "ByGrace",

I haven't been to Hastings, but would like to. The old town was featured in a drama series for the BBC entitled, 'Foyle's War', it looked lovely.
I believe we met on another forum, a good while ago now, in which you and I were on the administrative team, I can't remember what user name I used then, but left the forum after a very short while. The man who had begun it was very nice, but it was not for me.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Helen]

Hello "ByGrace",

I haven't been to Hastings, but would like to. The old town was featured in a drama series for the BBC entitled, 'Foyle's War', it looked lovely.
I believe we met on another forum, a good while ago now, in which you and I were on the administrative team, I can't remember what user name I used then, but left the forum after a very short while. The man who had begun it was very nice, but it was not for me.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We must be talking about Mike's forum..forgotten what he called it now.
That is a blast rom the past!

Mike is now in his late 80's probably 85 is not more.

I wish you could remember your user name.

Yes, we love Foyles War. Watched it more than once.
We always buy the British TV series from Amazon , we have been through all 12 years of 'Midsomer Murders'. They are so fun and and so pretty.

On this site you will remember Amadeus from the days of Mikes site, and also two others are here...Pat...lives near Manchester, who flies under the user name of Pearl. And Rita lives in Brighton , who's user name on here is Butterfly. Patrick is here too, under the name 'Dorian Grey.'

Small world

 

[Helen]

One cannot be spiritually sinless while actually sinful. That is what Gnosticism teaches.

Well I have learned two things ..1) I am a hyper dispensationalist , 2) I am a Gnostic , whatever that animal is.

I wonder who spent their time in coming up with all these named boxes for everyone else.

My spiritual position before the Father, In Christ Jesus is sinless.
My flesh still has and always will until I cross the Vale , the germ of "the measles" that Adam gave me , so now and again I get spots.

If that is Gnosticism then so be it.

Too many people focus on trying to kill the body of flesh, rather than living in the life that was purchased for us.
I endeavour to do as Paul said - "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Bless you. H

 

[charity]

We must be talking about Mike's forum..forgotten what he called it now.
That is a blast rom the past!

Mike is now in his late 80's probably 85 is not more.

I wish you could remember your user name.

Yes, we love Foyles War. Watched it more than once.
We always buy the British TV series from Amazon , we have been through all 12 years of 'Midsomer Murders'. They are so fun and and so pretty.

On this site you will remember Amadeus from the days of Mikes site, and also two others are here...Pat...lives near Manchester, who flies under the user name of Pearl. And Rita lives in Brighton , who's user name on here is Butterfly. Patrick is here too, under the name 'Dorian Grey.'

Small world

Hi @"ByGrace",

I have used the user names:- Wings, Chris, Complete, Readywriter and Cariad, maybe more, (I can't remember at the moment). Arrh! Pat (Pearl), yes, I thought she sounded familiar (she collected memory pebbles to mark particular precious moments), I lost touch with her. I had forgotten Mike's name, thank you for reminding me, and for bringing these names to my attention. Amadeus' name was familiar to me, but I did not know from where. Patrick and Rita (Butterfly and Dorian Grey) I can't recollect from that forum. Though I know I did not stay long there, which probably accounts for it.

Foyles War: - Michael Kitchen - I loved it too, with Honeysuckle Weeks playing the part of the young female driver - brilliant.

Thank you for this trip down memory lane. It is a small world.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jay Ross]

Once Adam and Eve sinned they put a hold on all that, and were cast out of Eden. So sin and death entered into the world, and now "the whole world lieth in wickedness".

It is is only after the Second Coming of Christ that everything will be put right and Israel will flourish like the garden of Eden.

And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced,and are inhabited. (Ezek 36:35)

Oh Enoch, if you actually understood what the Hebrew text actually said, you would understand that this verse has nothing to do with the state of the "Land of Canaan, i.e. the so termed "Promised Land," but everything to do with the whole earth. To understand what I am claiming, please compare the Hebrew word translated as "land" in Ezek.36:35 with the same Hebrew word found in Gen. 1:1 and then try and explain why the same Hebrew word is translated differently in both of these verses. So far I have not found a valid reason why this Hebrew word, embedded with the Hebrew Root, H:0776, has been translated differently from Gen. 12:1 and why the translation of this particular Hebrew word fil flops between "earth" and "land," depending on a perceived contextual understanding of the translators themselves.

This inserted "error" into our translations has been leading people astray, even since the time of Moses and the gaining of the possession of the "Promised Land" for a period of time, before they were purposely scattered by God to the four corners of the Earth to become His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations once more.

But there again you have accepted and endorsed this error, "hook, line and sinker."

Shalom

 

[Davy]

I'm glad you said "trespasses." What 1 John 3:9 actually means is a Christian can no longer commit sins of lawlessness (1 John 3:4). That is the real context of that passage 1 John 3:3-9. But a Christian is still able to commit trespasses, though can grow out of them. Do you know the difference? What is a trespass?

You cannot be that selective, because in Luke 11 the Greek for "sins" is the same Greek as in 1 John 1 and 1 John 3:

Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
KJV

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV


The essence of the matter about sin is that it is violation of God's laws, like John said in 1 John 3:4. The Holy Spirit is given us through Christ to help us have God's laws written in our hearts and minds to follow them. This is part of Paul's teaching in Galatians 5 that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we become dead to the law. If we don't, then we place ourselves back under the law.

Thus John is right, we are still able to transgress the law, call it a slip up, a sin, or whatever you want. Scripture calls it a violation of God's law, even Apostle John did. The difference between those of us in Christ though, is that we are to 'repent' to Jesus when we do slip up, and John says He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is why our Lord Jesus showed us to ask forgiveness of our sins when we pray, as per Luke 11.

In Romans 7, Paul teaches us to assume ourselves as dead to sin, even though it is impossible to fully prevent it from happening, because of our flesh.

Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Paul made a simple distinction there between a law that is in our flesh, vs. the law of God after the inward man, or the spiritual. As Paul said in Romans 6:7, he that is dead (in the flesh) is freed from sin.

Thus it's our flesh that causes most of our slip ups today, and that's why we still need to repent to Christ asking forgiveness of those sins when it does happen. That is one of the reasons for Communion with Him also (I don't mean the Catholic system either; we can hold Communion in our own homes).

So how do we reconcile what John said in 1 John 3:9? It simply means those born of God are not habitual sinners like the wicked who love to sin, like those in Isaiah 5:18 that pull a cart rope (i.e., pull a cart full of sins for show & tell, bragging about their sins).

 

[Davy]

Another part of our reconciliation for sins we may do after having come to Christ, is in 'trying'... not to do them again. If we do a slip up and tell a lie constantly, that is not a slip up. That is a habitual liar. One in Christ, especially a new babe in Christ with that previous problem will attempt to stop it, praying for forgiveness and admitting their guilt to the brethren when it happens. This is why we are to forgive each other, especially with brethren struggling to correct their behavior to fit Christian doctrine.

But a believer that doesn't even try... to stop sinning, doesn't even stop to look to see if... they are sinning, those are in danger of being cast with the wicked when our Lord Jesus returns, His shutting the door on them like with the five foolish virgins. And any religious doctrine of men that teaches that believer in Christ Jesus they don't have to stay on watch against sin, because they can never sin again, is teaching against New Covenant Christian doctrine.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You cannot be that selective, because in Luke 11 the Greek for "sins" is the same Greek as in 1 John 1 and 1 John 3:

Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
KJV

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV


The essence of the matter about sin is that it is violation of God's laws, like John said in 1 John 3:4. The Holy Spirit is given us through Christ to help us have God's laws written in our hearts and minds to follow them. This is part of Paul's teaching in Galatians 5 that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we become dead to the law. If we don't, then we place ourselves back under the law.

Thus John is right, we are still able to transgress the law, call it a slip up, a sin, or whatever you want. Scripture calls it a violation of God's law, even Apostle John did. The difference between those of us in Christ though, is that we are to 'repent' to Jesus when we do slip up, and John says He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is why our Lord Jesus showed us to ask forgiveness of our sins when we pray, as per Luke 11.

In Romans 7, Paul teaches us to assume ourselves as dead to sin, even though it is impossible to fully prevent it from happening, because of our flesh.

Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Paul made a simple distinction there between a law that is in our flesh, vs. the law of God after the inward man, or the spiritual. As Paul said in Romans 6:7, he that is dead (in the flesh) is freed from sin.

Thus it's our flesh that causes most of our slip ups today, and that's why we still need to repent to Christ asking forgiveness of those sins when it does happen. That is one of the reasons for Communion with Him also (I don't mean the Catholic system either; we can hold Communion in our own homes).

So how do we reconcile what John said in 1 John 3:9? It simply means those born of God are not habitual sinners like the wicked who love to sin, like those in Isaiah 5:18 that pull a cart rope (i.e., pull a cart full of sins for show & tell, bragging about their sins).

Both Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 are not Christians. Common mistake. Too common, in fact. Doesn't anyone read in context anymore?

The same word for sin is used in 1 John 5:16-17 for sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. It takes study to learn the difference. Most translations of Luke 11:2-4 use the word "debt" which is altogether different than what you say as sin. Debts are not sins unto death. They are trespasses. Using the word "sin" can be misinterpreted as sins unto death, and completely lose the truth.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Another part of our reconciliation for sins we may do after having come to Christ, is in 'trying'... not to do them again. If we do a slip up and tell a lie constantly, that is not a slip up. That is a habitual liar. One in Christ, especially a new babe in Christ with that previous problem will attempt to stop it, praying for forgiveness and admitting their guilt to the brethren when it happens. This is why we are to forgive each other, especially with brethren struggling to correct their behavior to fit Christian doctrine.

But a believer that doesn't even try... to stop sinning, doesn't even stop to look to see if... they are sinning, those are in danger of being cast with the wicked when our Lord Jesus returns, His shutting the door on them like with the five foolish virgins. And any religious doctrine of men that teaches that believer in Christ Jesus they don't have to stay on watch against sin, because they can never sin again, is teaching against New Covenant Christian doctrine.

Well, just like in Romans 7 you are teaching that we need to try to overcome sin in our own power. WRONG! Can't be done.

 

[farouk]

Well, just like in Romans 7 you are teaching that we need to try to overcome sin in our own power. WRONG! Can't be done.

Romans is a very searching Epistle.

 

[farouk]

Hi @"ByGrace",

I have used the user names:- Wings, Chris, Readywriter and Cariad, maybe more, (I can't remember at the moment). Arrh! Pat (Pearl), yes, I thought she sounded familiar (she collected memory pebbles to mark particular precious moments), I lost touch with her. I had forgotten Mike's name, thank you for reminding me, and for bringing these names to my attention. Amadeus' name was familiar to me, but I did not know from where. Patrick and Rita (Butterfly and Dorian Grey) I can't recollect from that forum. Though I know I did not stay long there, which probably accounts for it.

Foyles War: - Michael Kitchen - I loved it too, with Honeysuckle Weeks playing the part of the young female driver - brilliant.

Thank you for this trip down memory lane. It is a small world.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sometimes the doctrine shines through, whatever the user name is...

 

[charity]

Sometimes the doctrine shines through, whatever the user name is...

Yes, @farouk,

We are known by our fruits, aren't we? However expressed, by word, tongue, or action.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

Yes, @farouk,

We are known by our fruits, aren't we? However expressed, by word, tongue, or action.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Lord Jesus said as much, indeed.

 

[charity]

God,
Who at sundry times
.. and in divers manners
.... spake in time past
...... unto the fathers
........ by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by Whom also He made the worlds; ... (ie., the ages)
(Hebrews 1:1-2)

Praise God!

Hi there,

Dispensationalism: is merely a means to an end. It is a Bible Study tool, which distinguishes the 'sundry times' and 'divers manners', by, and, in which, God has spoken to mankind: and the content, manner and conditions which applied to each subsequent administration, consequent on that spoken word. This is important for us to know: for it enables us to distinguish the particular 'administration' of God applicable to our ourselves; following the word of God spoken to us, 'through them that Heard Him', and written down for our learning; that we may know His known will for us, in regard to our walk and worship, 'In Christ', in this dispensation.

Otherwise we are in danger of walking according to an administration, which though 'of God' has passed; which affects our worship, walk and witness; and does despite to the Word of God, and the pattern which it is intended to portray regarding the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, now risen and glorified; and the wondrous grace of God, His purpose and His will within this present dispensation.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

'God,
who at sundry times
and in divers manners
spake in time past
unto the fathers
by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also He made the worlds; ... ' (ie., the ages)
(Hebrews 1:1-2)

Hi there,

Dispensationalism: is merely a means to an end. It is a Bible Study tool, which distinguishes the 'sundry times' and 'divers manners', by, and, in which, God has spoken to mankind: and the content, manner and conditions which applied to each subsequent administration, consequent on that spoken word. This is important for us to know: for it enables us to distinguish the particular 'administration' of God applicable to our ourselves; following the word of God spoken to us, 'through them that Heard Him', and written down for our learning; that we may know His known will for us, in regard to our walk and worship, 'In Christ', in this dispensation.

Otherwise we are in danger of walking according to an administration, which though 'of God' has passed; which affects our worship, walk and witness; and does despite to the Word of God, and the pattern which it is intended to portray regarding the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, now risen and glorified; and the wondrous grace of God, His purpose and His will within this present dispensation.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It boils down to Israel and the church being clearly distinct in Scripture, doesn't it?