Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Sure and his sheep are those who enter through him, as I've already shown. You have to read the passage backward to get to your conclusion.

And I have shown you in post #244 that there is no such thing as one becoming a sheep of Jesus.

Here was the passage you make out to support your teaching that "whoever" can become a sheep.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Nothing in there that speaks of becoming a sheep nor that the man who enters the door becomes His sheep. Evidently, you just made that up.

Here's what that passage shows. Everyone else can check out for themselves. That Jesus is the door. Door of the what? The sheep. So, in verse 9, the man who enters the door, who are they? Who else but the sheep! For what door is Jesus, but the door of the sheep? And when the sheep enters the door (Jesus), what does the passage says? That's right, the sheep shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So, again, I say, there is no such thing as becoming a sheep.

Tong
R0072

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is it that you cant remember what you said...?

 

[Tong2020]

You have that problem because you begin with the wrong foot.

Here's the situation. Man sinned, making himself a slave of sin and hellbound.
God is under no obligation to save man.

Are you alright with that or do you deny any of that?

Now God saves not all of man. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

God had chosen a people among the peoples of the earth, to be His people, that is Israel. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

To the people whom He had not chosen, was God unjust or not fair by not choosing them? My answer is No. How about you?

What happens to the people that God did not choose to be His people? They will be going to hell because of their sin. Can they blame God for not choosing them? My answer is no. How about you?

They will go to hell because they did not choose God. "Choose you this day who you will serve." Your problem is starting off with the assumption that God doesn't' call all to salvation.
If man sinned only because God left him no other option, then God could not be considered just.

What are your answers to the other questions? Are they difficult to answer because the answers expose the truth? I believe so.

You said "Your problem is starting off with the assumption that God doesn't' call all to salvation.". I have no such assumptions Rennicks. I start of with God, who God is. We should not start from elsewhere but there, and especially not start off with man, which many here do. Now, by saying "Your problem is starting off with the assumption that God doesn't' call all to salvation.", the implication is that, you believe that God's call to salvation is to all mankind. Please go ahead and prove that from scriptures, which I believe you believe it because you learned it from scriptures. You could be right. We just need to examine and check that out. Now, let me throw in a few question for you to begin with concerning God's call to salvation from sin and death. Please cite scriptural reference if any:

1. Were Adam and Eve called to salvation?
2. Were all of Adam's posterity up to the generation of Noah called to salvation?
3. Were all peoples of Noah's generation after the flood and of the generations thereafter up to before the time of Abram called to salvation?
4. Were all peoples of the generation of Abraham and of the generations thereafter until the time of Moses called to salvation?
5. Were all peoples of the generation of Moses and of all the generation thereafter until the time of Jesus Christ called to salvation?
6. Were all peoples of the generation of Jesus Christ and of all the generations thereafter up to this present time called to salvation?
7. Were people in places where the gospel had not been preached called to salvation?

You said "If man sinned only because God left him no other option, then God could not be considered just." How is that? Can you clarify the first part "If man sinned only because God left him no other option". While waiting for that clarification, let me say a few comments. Man, as far as I know, always have the option to do right or evil. This was so even from Adam up to the present day.

Now on the part "then God could not be considered just.". Since you can say that, I'm sure you can tell us what is just, especially when said of God. So please go ahead and tell us.

Tong
R0073

 

[Renniks]

And I have shown you in post #244 that there is no such thing as one becoming a sheep of Jesus.

Here was the passage you make out to support your teaching that "whoever" can become a sheep.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Nothing in there that speaks of becoming a sheep nor that the man who enters the door becomes His sheep. Evidently, you just made that up.

Here's what that passage shows. Everyone else can check out for themselves. That Jesus is the door. Door of the what? The sheep. So, in verse 9, the man who enters the door, who are they? Who else but the sheep! For what door is Jesus, but the door of the sheep? And when the sheep enters the door (Jesus), what does the passage says? That's right, the sheep shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So, again, I say, there is no such thing as becoming a sheep.

Tong
R0072

Lol, you truly are reading it backwards, by assuming that some are already destined to be sheep. Where does it say that?
What is hard to understand about " whoever"?
In your world, does "whoever" mean "whoever is already saved before he is born"?

Who are the sheep from another flock? Gentiles who will later believe. Does it say that there's no condition to becoming a sheep? No, just the opposite, it says:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. " Who are his sheep? The ones who listen and follow.

Why does Jesus say: "
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Because he's evangelizing these hardened Jews, because they are still capable of becoming his.

41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

Who are the many? The ones who chose to listen and follow, of course. This is obvious.
You are imposing fatalism on the text.

 

[Renniks]

Were Adam and Eve called to salvation?
2. Were all of Adam's posterity up to the generation of Noah called to salvation?
3. Were all peoples of Noah's generation after the flood and of the generations thereafter up to before the time of Abram called to salvation?
4. Were all peoples of the generation of Abraham and of the generations thereafter until the time of Moses called to salvation?
5. Were all peoples of the generation of Moses and of all the generation thereafter until the time of Jesus Christ called to salvation?
6. Were all peoples of the generation of Jesus Christ and of all the generations thereafter up to this present time called to salvation?
7. Were people in places where the gospel had not been preached called to salvation?

Yes,

And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ Acts 2:21

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18

Men were saved before Christ by believing the promise.

Why would anyone believe God only calls some to be saved? God pleads and strives with mankind all through scripture.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, Titus 2:11

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

If God doesn't speak to all, men have the perfect excuse for thier failure to respond to him.

 

[Renniks]

I too believe that God did not just randomly pick and chose. But I believe too that God did not also looked in the future (which many here seems to be composed of things and events that if not of God's power to see ahead are not really known to God, because they are random events rather than planned and preordained events) and seeing you for example as believing the gospel, that He picked you and chose you for salvation and predestined you because of that. I do not believe that, for the simple reason that God seeing ahead that you will believe, defeats the purpose and necessity of having to choose you for salvation. I don't see the purpose and necessity for God to choose you. Why so? Simply because, that which you say God had seen in the future, that is, your believing the gospel, WILL SURELY come to pass and WILL NOT change. And so it makes no sense for God to do anything else to make sure you will believe and be saved. Even though there is more to say about this, I think I will have to stop here.

On the matter of being "also predestined", this of course could not be separated from having been chosen for salvation, but not as you say, from foreknowledge. For God, besides those who will believe, also knows ahead in the future, people who will not believe the gospel and so are going to hell. In what you say is foreknowledge is, that too is foreknowledge, right? Now scriptures says nothing about them being predestined, right? Okay, as I was saying, being "also predestined" means that the one chosen for salvation by God will surely attain to be what God had predestined him/her to be. According to scriptures, God had predestined him to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which image is nothing short of perfection, holiness, righteousness, etc. That certainly only means that he is heaven bound and without fail nor change of course. This is why we have scriptures saying "whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." If you'll look at it, it's nothing but about the salvation work of God, certain and sure.

Tong
R0069

Why do the fatalists always believe they are among the predestined?
If you are correct, chances are you are born for damnation and only think you are saved John Calvin believed God temporarily enlightens some then drops them into hell anyway. " Oops, just kidding, you weren't really elect."
Monster God indeed.

 

[Tong2020]

While a Fatalist will emphasize that Jesus died "for" the sheep, a Biblical Christian does not deny that fact; they also believe that Jesus died for the whole world also.

Jesus died for all, not just some small sliver of Predestined "elect." "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. This passage is so clear on its own that it must take a pretty good theologian to get you to disbelieve it! To say that Christ did not die for each and every person in the entire world throughout history is to deny that God, "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. Does God love the world, or just the elect "few"? Why would God insist that we "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." ?

Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?

My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.

Tong
R0074

 

[Tong2020]

You really know how to weaken God and make the man powerful by your free will, this time as to have power to break even what God has predestined.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

A reminder: God is the Potter, man is the clay. God is the Creator, man is the created.

God gave men free will. God is the Potter and where does that concept come from?

Jeremiah 18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’”

God shapes people who allow him to shape them. He punishes those who follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.
God does not force anyone to come to him or remain his.

Great. You just have evaded everything else except the reminder.

So, can you now answer the questions in my post? Here they are.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

Tong
R0075

 

[CharismaticLady]

Charlatan's excuse!

It may not be too late. Just repent. You too could be filled with the Spirit and start the same relationship that I have.

 

[Enoch111]

Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep?

Because God wanted all human beings to be the sheep of Christ. Those who are not sheep have chosen to REJECT the Shepherd. Now please pay close attention to the words of Christ (and believe them):

JOHN 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Did you get that?

 

[CharismaticLady]

In your Post#242, you asked "How do you believe someone is a sheep?". I gave you a quick and short answer which is "No one truly knows except God. We share or preach the gospel. If someone hears and ends up repenting unto God and have faith in Jesus Christ, I could consider him to be a sheep, for Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice". Now, Jesus also said of the sheep, "and they follow me". So, seeing him obeying and keeping the words of Jesus Christ, give me more reason to believe that he is a sheep."

And you disagree here. Why, do you not agree that no one truly knows except God? Why, if you shared the gospel to somebody and he repented and believed, could you not take him/her to be a believer or a sheep and say "good to know to you brother/sister!", or would you rather say "we'll see if you truly are a brethren"? Why, if you see this somebody later on living a practical life of obedience and faithfulness to the words of Jesus Christ, would that not give you more reason to believe that he/she is a sheep? I could not understand how you disagree with my answer. Well,....

Tong
R0068

God knows everything from the beginning to the end. That is not what I disagree to. I disagree with believing that those who believe had no choice but to believe. And those who don't believe did not have a choice but to not believe. That would mean that God created some people for hell. Why create them at all?

 

[Tong2020]

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

When you see this phrase I have underlined, you know John is speaking of the apostles. So did Jesus die just for the apostles or for the whole world? So yes, we do become sheep.

No CLady, John is not speaking of the apostles there. You can read the entire John 10 chapter so you can see for yourself. The "them" in v.29 there refers to the sheep. Check out for yourself who are the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

You asked "So did Jesus die just for the apostles or for the whole world?" Jesus died for the sheep, His sheep (v.15).

You said "So yes, we do become sheep." Where is that conclusion based or is coming from?

Tong
R0076

 

[Tong2020]

Rosy words for someone that believes in a monster god. Have you ever heard of the spaghetti monster god? What you propose is that God has all the characteristics of Satan! Saved and damned by predestination. Satan has a guaranteed quota? Satan would vote for this idea! The monster puppet master god! Don't you think it would be boring for Him to watch His own orchestrated puppet show for thousands of years? Babies damned from birth with no hope of escape! Sounds like a horror flick! Then why would God predestine His own Son to go through what He did? Do you think He got His jollies off on it? What do prayers, faith, grace, and love mean in such a belief system.. It is all forced. What are the people that promote something that would be the desire of Satan?

Why do you say I believe in a monster god, when I'm sure you pretty well know that My God is the Father of Jesus Christ, the God of Israel, of Moses, of Isaac, of Abraham? He is not a monster god as you call Him here. I'm not sure if your language and conduct there is even allowed here. I can't believe I am getting this kind of response to my post, even my post #244 which is basically all quoted scriptures. What did I say that I should get this kind of unpleasant response?

I think your post doesn't deserve any of my attention and time.

Tong
R0077

 

[DNB]

It may not be too late. Just repent. You too could be filled with the Spirit and start the same relationship that I have.

I hear your words, but am not seeing your proof.

 

[FollowHim]

Hi

Are we chosen to be saved? Does God pre-select us according to his will?
Is salvation only for the elect?

I have faith, i believe, I've confessed and repented and accepted Christ as lord and saviour, but am i saved?

If not predestined and apart of his elect? Then all hope faith and trust in Christ is in vain, and comes to nothing.

Ephesians 4:5.
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 11.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

I have spoken to people who are so fearful of losing salvation, for them security is their only solution. They were predestined before the beginning of time, saved, gone from death to life so can never leave life.

There is a problem here, God wants to know this commitment is real and not just a fake passing fancy, or something to patch one up while guilt burns a hole in ones soul. So the Lord talks about endurance, perseverance, resisting unto death, not being a coward, confessing in front of opposition and evil people. Abraham proved his faith in God by offering Isaac.

In revelation the 7 churches are given a challenge each which requires victory. We are so fluid, like Peter, "I would die for you" "I never knew the man", all within 4 or so hours.

But the Lord wants to say, He chose us, He predestined us, He gives us the power and knowledge for victory. So many believers have come to him fearful, empty, at a loss, and have died singing glory to His name, thousands, 100 of thousands because He can change us this much. Often life can appear bland, a whimper, a number on a page, or we can burn as a light to the King of Kings to be remembered for all eternity in His courts, Amen. Stephen, "I see Jesus at the right hand of the Father", glory, all within 2 months of Jesus's death and resurrection when they had run away in fear.

What we fear is fear itself, because we are born alone, wondering how danger will hurt us, scared of our own shadow. But the King of Kings has come and scooped us up, brought brilliant blessed people into our lives and changed us, filled us with His love so we are literally never alone. Now that is power, that is eternity, that is victory. Amen

 

[Renniks]

Great. You just have evaded everything else except the reminder.

So, can you now answer the questions in my post? Here they are.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

Tong
R0075

The verb foreknow is often understood as “to know, perceive, learn or understand beforehand, to take note of.” This word is used in Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.”

But there is a another and much simpler option that is often overlooked in some modern theological circles :

Formerly Known (known before) = As in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him. Paul said, “The man who loves God is known by God” (1 Cor. 8:3).

God “had acquaintanceship” with the Israelites of the past. So, it was not “mere Divine pre-knowledge” of certain individuals, but a real intimate “pre-acquaintanceship.”

This makes it simple to understand that those God has a relationship with he decides to conform to his image. No relationship..no conforming. It's simple.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why do you say I believe in a monster god, when I'm sure you pretty well know that My God is the Father of Jesus Christ, the God of Israel, of Moses, of Isaac, of Abraham? He is not a monster god as you call Him here. I'm not sure if your language and conduct there is even allowed here. I can't believe I am getting this kind of response to my post, even my post #244 which is basically all quoted scriptures. What did I say that I should get this kind of unpleasant response?

I think your post doesn't deserve any of my attention and time.

Tong
R0077

Religions can take over your God. The Moslems take Yahweh and call Him Allah. They demonstrate the character of their beliefs. Truth can be startling. Everything you got about this predestinationist god you are purposing is drenched with evil. It is like the devil got his own bible and combed through it to come up with a religion that would serve him. His footprints, his character, his will be done. The church of Satan cannot hold a candle to the evilness of this belief. The sacrilege that this is the character of Yahweh is the worst of sins, over an above any form of idolatry.

 

[Tong2020]

And I have shown you in post #244 that there is no such thing as one becoming a sheep of Jesus.

Here was the passage you make out to support your teaching that "whoever" can become a sheep.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Nothing in there that speaks of becoming a sheep nor that the man who enters the door becomes His sheep. Evidently, you just made that up.

Here's what that passage shows. Everyone else can check out for themselves. That Jesus is the door. Door of the what? The sheep. So, in verse 9, the man who enters the door, who are they? Who else but the sheep! For what door is Jesus, but the door of the sheep? And when the sheep enters the door (Jesus), what does the passage says? That's right, the sheep shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So, again, I say, there is no such thing as becoming a sheep.

Lol, you truly are reading it backwards, by assuming that some are already destined to be sheep. Where does it say that?
What is hard to understand about " whoever"?
In your world, does "whoever" mean "whoever is already saved before he is born"?

Who are the sheep from another flock? Gentiles who will later believe. Does it say that there's no condition to becoming a sheep? No, just the opposite, it says:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. " Who are his sheep? The ones who listen and follow.

Why does Jesus say: "
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Because he's evangelizing these hardened Jews, because they are still capable of becoming his.

41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

Who are the many? The ones who chose to listen and follow, of course. This is obvious.
You are imposing fatalism on the text.

You laughed out loud and said "you truly are reading it backwards, by assuming that some are already destined to be sheep. Where does it say that?" You really appear to be living in your imagination. Let me guide you to reality and read forward:

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

That Jesus is the door. Door of the what? The sheep. Take note, the sheep (not goat or wolf or thief or robber or what) are referred here. Did the sheep exist already or not? My answer is yes. How about you, what is your answer to the simple question?

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Again the sheep is referred here, not goat or wolf or thief or robber or what. Jesus said, the sheep did not hear them thieves and robbers who came before Jesus. Did the sheep exist already even before Jesus ever came or not? My answer is yes. How about you, what is your answer to the simple question?

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

If Jesus is the door of the sheep (v.7), who do you think may enter that door? If any man therefore enter in the door, who is such man, if not the sheep? There is not even the slightest hint that the man who enters the door is not a sheep but is something else other than a sheep who after entering the door becomes a sheep. Sure, if that is want you want it to be, you are free to do anything you want. But as for me, I will go by the words in scriptures and what they teach. And no backward reading.

Jesus said "27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Jesus describes and identifies His sheep here.
While you on the other hand make it appear that Jesus is there setting forth the conditions of becoming His sheep.

So, whom will we believe, Jesus or you? Should I answer that?

Did you not skip read what Jesus said here? I thought you read John 10. Here's more truth, shocking as it may be to you.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

So, Jesus perfectly understand that only His sheep will believe, that He told them Jews there that they do not believe because they are no sheep of Him. For if they were His sheep, they would hear and believe Him.

Tong
R0078

 

[Renniks]

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

So, Jesus perfectly understand that only His sheep will believe, that He told them Jews there that they do not believe because they are no sheep of Him. For if they were His sheep, they would hear and believe Him.

You ignored all the verses I quoted.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why did Jesus give the gospel to people you claim could not become his?
So that they might listen, so that they would become known by him ( which happens at thier moment of belief) so that they might follow him, and many did. You twist scripture into a pretzel.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
1. Were Adam and Eve called to salvation?
2. Were all of Adam's posterity up to the generation of Noah called to salvation?
3. Were all peoples of Noah's generation after the flood and of the generations thereafter up to before the time of Abram called to salvation?
4. Were all peoples of the generation of Abraham and of the generations thereafter until the time of Moses called to salvation?
5. Were all peoples of the generation of Moses and of all the generation thereafter until the time of Jesus Christ called to salvation?
6. Were all peoples of the generation of Jesus Christ and of all the generations thereafter up to this present time called to salvation?
7. Were people in places where the gospel had not been preached called to salvation?

Yes,

And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ Acts 2:21

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18

Men were saved before Christ by believing the promise.

Why would anyone believe God only calls some to be saved? God pleads and strives with mankind all through scripture.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, Titus 2:11

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

If God doesn't speak to all, men have the perfect excuse for thier failure to respond to him.

Here's Rennicks answers to my questions:

1. Were Adam and Eve called to salvation? yes.
2. Were all of Adam's posterity up to the generation of Noah called to salvation? yes.
3. Were all peoples of Noah's generation after the flood and of the generations thereafter up to before the time of Abram called to salvation? yes.
4. Were all peoples of the generation of Abraham and of the generations thereafter until the time of Moses called to salvation? yes.
5. Were all peoples of the generation of Moses and of all the generation thereafter until the time of Jesus Christ called to salvation? yes.
6. Were all peoples of the generation of Jesus Christ and of all the generations thereafter up to this present time called to salvation? yes.
7. Were people in places where the gospel had not been preached called to salvation? yes.

In support, you cited Acts 2:21 which says "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But, we can clearly see, what Acts 2:21 says is not that God calls all mankind to salvation. Another is Romans 5:18, which also does not prove that God called all mankind to salvation. Another is Titus 2:11, which also does not prove that God called all mankind to salvation. Bear in mind, all mankind includes all man, that is, Adam and Eve and their posterity. Another is Romans 1:20, which one is really way off since it does not even speak of salvation.

Well, it's forcing the answer. And I am not surprised. Because you can't prove and it's hard, if not impossible, to prove that all of mankind were actually called to salvation by God. As I said, you could be right. But there should be proof to that. I think this is settled here.

You asked "If God doesn't speak to all, men have the perfect excuse for their failure to respond to him." Consider the scriptures:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

And indeed Jesus Christ had spoken and the fact is, what He had spoken were written in scriptures. Now, consider also the following scriptures:

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

My question is, do you know what that means?

Tong
R0079