Preterism's Claim Of 70AD Fulfillment Is Silenced In One Verse, Luke 21:35

Truth7t7 said:

You are Preterist in your eschatology, as you state you believe Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in 66-70AD, and the complete Olivet Discourse

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I don't think you know what Preterism is, and I don't know if it's important at all in the greater scheme of things to argue this point, but anyway, here goes: Preterism interprets all of the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD. It sees the prophecies of the Book of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD.

Just because someone like myself acknowledges the fact that much of Old Testament prophecy and the Olivet Discourse has already had its (historical) fulfillment, does not make the person a Preterist by the definition of Preterism. Preterists do not believe, as I do, that everything from Revelation 4:1 to the end of the book is future. I also believe that there is a possibility that the Lord's return might see some significant events taking place in Jerusalem again immediately preceding His appearance in the clouds (the bodies of the two witnesses will be lying in the street in Jerusalem for 3.5 days, for example).

Not that it's that important in the greater scheme of things to defend my statement, but there you go.

Waiting on him said:

Does this mean if Genesis says that Noah tied his ass to a tree and walked forty miles that skin is the most elastic substance on the planet?

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My point is that no one actually saw it as it was a symbolic sign of judgement

Truth7t7 said:

Would your correct God manifest in the flesh, that answered untold questions with questions?

I follow the example of my Lord, and you will closely note you didnt answer my question below

What do you think God meant with his words (The Face Of The Whole Earth) below

Luke 21:35KJV
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Genesis 7:4KJV
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Genesis 8:9KJV
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

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Yes I did answer and I showed that a word in the bible can mean different things at different times. At times it can mean the whole world or at other times it can mean a certain area.

You can say I’ve had a headache all day and it could mean all day or just for most of the day

You still haven’t answered my question

Truth7t7 said:

Preterism is looked at through the window of Matthew chapter 24 and the Olivet discourse relating to the three items below

(Partial Preterist) believe 1 or 2 of the events below have been fulfilled

(Full Preterist) believe all of the 3 events below have been fulfilled

(Futurist) believe none of the 3 events below have been fulfilled

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD
2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation
3.) Matthew 24:30 The Second Coming

Wikipedia: Preterism, a Christian eschatological view, interprets some (partial preterism) or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of the Book of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond".[1] Adherents of preterism are known as preterists. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet discourse had come to pass by AD 70.

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) during the Counter-Reformation.

In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

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Im a partial preterist and I only believe that one of those events has been fulfilled

Truth7t7 said:

Preterism is looked at through the window of Matthew chapter 24 and the Olivet discourse, in relationship to the three items below?

(Partial Preterist) believe 1 or 2 of the events below have been fulfilled

(Full Preterist) believe all of the 3 events below have been fulfilled

(Futurist) believe none of the 3 events below have been fulfilled

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD
2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation
3.) Matthew 24:30 The Second Coming

Wikipedia: Preterism, a Christian eschatological view, interprets some (partial preterism) or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of the Book of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond".[1] Adherents of preterism are known as preterists. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet discourse had come to pass by AD 70.

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) during the Counter-Reformation.

In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

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So I don't believe the Revelation was fulfilled in A.D 70, so I'm not a Preterist.

I don't know if Preterists, Partial Preterists and Amillennialists will be able to understand this before the Lord returns, but here goes:

Some shoes fit more than one person’s feet.


The following precludes neither the fact that we have been redeemed, nor the fact that we will be redeemed:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" 1 Corinthians 14:14
"And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23)

"And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near. " (Luke 21:28)

The following precludes neither an A.D 70 fulfilment, nor a fulfilment at the end of our own Age:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Matthew 24:14)

"At that time (toteh) they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Matthew 24:9)

Matthew 24
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The following precludes neither John the Baptist, nor Elijah:

" Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Malachi 4:4)

"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." (Luke 1:17).

"And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he says, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered, No." (John 1:21)

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?" (Matthew 17:10)

In His reply, the Lord juxtaposed a future-tense fulfilment with a past-tense fulfilment:

Matthew 17
[10] And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
[11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.
[12] But I say unto you, That Elijah has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
[13] Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.

Just as much as they understood then that the Lord was speaking to them about John the Baptist (and yet the prophecy still does not preclude Elijah), so the disciples who were alive in A.D 70 understood what they had witnessed in their lifetime to be the fulfilment of the Lord's Olivet Discourse, and they would have been looking up:

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh." (Luke 21:28).

PS: The fact that the Kingdom of Christ has come does not preclude the fact that the Kingdom of Christ is coming:

Matthew 6
[9] After this manner therefore pray all of you: Our Father which are in heaven, Hallowed be your name.
[10] Your kingdom come, Your will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

@Truth7t7 Neither Preterists, nor Partial Preterists, nor Amillennialists are able to see this.

= I'm not a Preterist or Partial Preterist. I believe that the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 9:26-27 have been fulfilled in the 1st century and I believe this does not preclude another fulfillment of the same prophecy (at least with regard to the Olivet Discourse).

Marty fox said:

Im a partial preterist and I only believe that one of those events has been fulfilled

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If someone puts you into a box, then you mustn't upset the apple cart by trying to climb out. Behave yourself.

Truth7t7 said:

To deny that Matthew 24:15 isnt referencing Daniel 9:27 would be considered unorthodox teaching, as it is clearly described in scripture below

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I don't understand. Why should Marty or me or you or any other Christian adjust our thinking with regard to Biblical prophecy so that it's in line with one or other "official and labelled" understanding?

I prefer to forget about all "official and labelled" theology and listen to the person who's talking to me and not think about what the other person who stands behind the pulpit said.

I also disagree with the assertion that Daniel 9:26-27 is not linked to Matthew 24:15, but I believe Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the first century - and that does not make me a Preterist.

Truth7t7 said:

God's words below are very clear, just as the waters covered "The Face Of The Whole Earth) the snare will come upon the same

Teaching that this snare was local to Jerusalem in 70AD, is in opposition to the truth of scripture before your eyes

The event of Luke 21:35 is future, and will come upon the entire earth, and this didnt take place in 70AD Jerusalem as many claim

Luke 21:35KJV
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Genesis 7:4KJV
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Genesis 8:9KJV
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

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Yet you still haven’t answered my question

I said sometimes the bible means the whole world and sometimes times the area that they live in just like the Pharisees meant when they said the whole world

Just like in John 3:16 it says all that believes in Jesus will be saved but we all know that it’s not just believing in Him it’s accepting Him as your own personal saviour

Truth7t7 said:

The term preterism

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The term preterism blah blah blah.

You don't even understand the Biblical meaning of the words "great tribulation" properly because you're unable to think out of your box of "official and labelled" eschatology.


God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case, for example: Exodus 15:3-7

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement. A final judgement came upon Babylon when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city in the day Jerusalem was destroyed by the the armies of Babylon: Jeremiah 50:13

But the judgment which came upon Judah and Jerusalem (Jeremiah 21:5-7) was not final at that time. With regard to final judgement, the first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved. The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's wrath, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image"

There is no "once-off" experience of tribulation: With the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about the tribulation of saints, those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule).

There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14. Two are talking about great tribulation as the experience of saints.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

If someone puts you into a box, then you mustn't upset the apple cart by trying to climb out. Behave yourself.

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LoL

Truth7t7 said:

It's your freewill to believe as you desire, nobody is seeking your life regarding your belief

Preterism is a teaching in error, Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, and Second Coming are future events unfulfilled

Preterism was implemented in the 1600's by the Roman Catholic church through Luis del Alcázar (Ludovicus ab Alcasar, Louis of Alcazar) (1554–1613) was a Spanish Jesuit theologian during the reformation, to dispel the teaching that the Pope was the Antichrist

70AD fulfillment in the various teachings such as Vespasian, Titus, Caesar, or Nero being the Antichrist removed the stigma from the pope, thus Preterism was born

Dispensationalism teachings are in error, there is no pre-trib rapture, nor are there (Two Peoples Of God) in (Dual Covenant Theology)

There will be no Millennial Kingdom On This Earth

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I don't care because I'm not a Pretersit.

The more you claim I fit into the definition of Preterism, the more you prove you are in error.

Truth7t7 said:

Its my observation that you believe 2 items are fulfilled, Matthew 24:15 & Matthew 24:21

I have seen that you believe the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 took place in 70AD Jerusalem, and Antiochus Epiphanies in 167BC fulfilled Daniel 9:27?

Fact is Matthew 24:15 is a direct reference to Daniel 9:27, in Daniel's AOD

You might disagree, but historical Christian theology in the majority ties Daniel 9:27 & Matthew 24:15 together as inseparable

To deny that Matthew 24:15 isnt referencing Daniel 9:27 would be considered unorthodox teaching, as it is clearly described in scripture below

I'm fully aware of your claim that Jesus was referencing a Future AOD in Matthew 24:+5, I disagree

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

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I could care less of what other theologians think I care whet the bible and history says.

I believe that Jesus spoke of a “great tribulation” leading up to and ending in 70AD did take place but there is only one “The great tribulation” and that is the tribulation of the saints that started on the day Stephen was stoned to death and it is still happening today as stated in verse 14 below

Revelation :9-17
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”