If The Kingdom isn't here yet then what is JESUS CHRIST a King of?

Davy said:

Automatic Grade F. When you brought in the Maccabean wars history that was around 160 B.C. till..., you LEFT the Biblical subject of the "day of the Lord", which is ONLY for the very END this present world:

So I don't care if Albert Einstein himself researched the Macabean wars, the doctrine of men you espouse against the "day of the Lord" event for the END leaves God's written Word.

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That's maybe one of you major assumptions that rules your thoughts...your 'Day of the Lord' as a one time action and one event. This expression is used for multiple ideas in scripture...

Let me go on in Zechariah again if you do not have an objection?...(rhetorical)

Zechariah in Chapter 14:4 pointed to a dual prophecy: The actual splitting of the Mount of Olives as I've already mentioned during the times of the Maccabean Was and also when Christ died on the Cross.

Some if not many scholars believe that Christ was crucified on the mount of Olives directly in line of sight with the east gate of the Temple in Jerusalem opposite of the mount of Olives on Mount Zion. So when Christ gave up his own spirit, the veil of the Temple was split as recorded in Matt 27:51. Even if the place of death was not exactly on this Mount, the earthquake was sufficiently extensive to further divide the Mount of Olives across the East West direction.

Zechariah 14..
Verse 9...when Christ died on the Cross and was resurrected and ascended into heaven, he became the only ONE true King of this world.
Verse 11: Jerusalem will always be inhabited henceforth. A triple prophecy of the physical destruction and plundering of Jerusalem during the 2nd Century BC and when it was utterly destroyed by 70AD, by the Roman army. And then later inhabited, or occupied, although never by the ethnic house of Israel anymore.

The New Jerusalem since Christ as King is scheduled to be inhabited by the Body of Christ when the King returns to bring them home. The Body of the King are its true inhabitants, the true Israel of the New Jerusalem. They will never leave.
Verse 12 addresses at least Antiochus Epiphanies, who died from a disease that caused his flesh to rot off.
Verse 14: the Maccabees (Machabees) or Judahite rebels seized vast amounts of plunder.
Verses 16-19: the Judahites are called to hold to the Feast of Tabernacles. And a new Feast of Tabernacles was instituted during the Maccabean Wars to celebrate the miracle that occurred at the rededication of the Temple. Called the Feast of Tabernacles in the 'Book of Maccabees,' and better known as the holiday today as Hanukah. The Judahites in Egypt were to continue to celebrate this new Feast of Tabernacles.

---------and there's more---------------

pittsburghjoe said:

Why don't we combine all this by saying The Kingdom of The Body of CHRIST is New Jerusalem? The Bride. Being a Citizen of The Kingdom means you have Eternal Life. What more do we have to say about JESUS being a King if He Ascended and fills all things?

Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Samuel 2:8: "He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap To make them sit with nobles, And inherit a seat of honor; For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, And He set the world on them.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

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As I was going to add for @Davy in Zechariah 14

Verse 20: More symbols and imagery. It represents the complete cessation of literal and physical Temple rituals and then replaced by the spiritual temple in every believer.

This was temporarily stops during the times of the Maccabees, and then signaled it final cessation when Christ died on the Cross and the Temple veil was ripped apart. And then finally destroyed the Temple and its activities by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Since Pentecost, believers are the Temple and the new 'rituals' to God Almighty.

Verse 21: This is another triple prophecy. The is when Christ came to demonstrate that the house of the Lord is not a marketplace where he overturned the tables in the courtyard or outer enclosure to the Temple (Matt 21:12-13). And second, it refers to the destruction of the Temple by 70 AD. And third, it references the spirits of the believers as the new temple of God in the Body of Christ, in the New Jerusalem.

Well that is the Bottom line...as you said...The Kingdom of The Body of CHRIST is New Jerusalem..

Davy said:

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

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“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation” spies they are, that came in privately to spy out you Liberty that they might bring us into bondage. Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. [35] For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Psalm 35:5-17 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the Lord chase them. [6] Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the Lord persecute them. [7] For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. [8] Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall. [9] And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord : it shall rejoice in his salvation. [10] All my bones shall say, Lord, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him? [11] False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not. [12] They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul. [13] But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom. [14] I behaved myself as though he had been my friend or brother: I bowed down heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother. [15] But in mine adversity they rejoiced,(gave gifts?) and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not: [16] With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. [17] Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.

Psalm 35:20 For they speak not peace: (for when they say peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 they shall not escape.


Psalm 35:20-26 For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land. [21] Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it. [22] This thou hast seen, O Lord : keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me. 23] Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord. [24] Judge me, O Lord my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me. [25] Let them not say in their hearts, Ah, so would we have it: let them not say, We have swallowed him up. [26] Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonour that magnify themselves against me.

point is regarding those men that crept in unawares …that the day so comes as a thief in the night, as a snare and the very pit or trap they dig, they fall into themselves? “And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. [35] For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

question being then why do we make it into something else other than …what you sow that you will reap…returned again into your own bosom?

VictoryinJesus said:

Psalm 35:20 For they speak not peace: (for when they say peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 they shall not escape.

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Hi @VictoryinJesus Very different from the true peace, right?




John 3.16 is a great verse, full of the Gospel.

APAK said:

That's maybe one of you major assumptions that rules your thoughts...your 'Day of the Lord' as a one time action and one event. This expression is used for multiple ideas in scripture...

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Not an assumption. When the subject was apples, you inserted ideas about bananas. It's that simple. That shows a vain attempt to steer away from what the written Scripture actually states.

APAK said:

As I was going to add for @Davy in Zechariah 14

Verse 20: More symbols and imagery. It represents the complete cessation of literal and physical Temple rituals and then replaced by the spiritual temple in every believer.

This was temporarily stops during the times of the Maccabees, and then signaled it final cessation when Christ died on the Cross and the Temple veil was ripped apart. And then finally destroyed the Temple and its activities by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Since Pentecost, believers are the Temple and the new 'rituals' to God Almighty.

Verse 21: This is another triple prophecy. The is when Christ came to demonstrate that the house of the Lord is not a marketplace where he overturned the tables in the courtyard or outer enclosure to the Temple (Matt 21:12-13). And second, it refers to the destruction of the Temple by 70 AD. And third, it references the spirits of the believers as the new temple of God in the Body of Christ, in the New Jerusalem.

Well that is the Bottom line...as you said...The Kingdom of The Body of CHRIST is New Jerusalem..

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Just more bananas from men's doctrines.

APAK said:

A great subject and defines who and where we are in the Kingdom today.

I just found this thread and I just began to study this very same subject at home several hours ago ...a coincidence? who knows.

Well right now I'm re-examining the case for or against the '1000' year reign on a physical earth or not. I've always been bothered with a nagging feeling over the years that an earthly '1000' year reign by Christ on earth, as many espouse, is not correct. I do believe that Christ is reigning now, since his ascension, and we are in this Kingdom reigning with him right now...I just need to alight all the scripture I can find as its basis.

There are many moving parts to this subject...another core thread of truth to peel back...

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You think humanity is to the point where they can literally change the way Revelation is written, even though John declared curses on those who do? Revelation 20 comes immediately after 19, and the topic of the battle of Armageddon is still being defined victory wise. It would be actually changing the words to declare the binding of Satan does not immediately follow, the beast and the FP being cast into the LOF.

It would take changing the words to state there is not a resurrection immediately after Armageddon. It would take changing the words to say there is not a 1000 year period immediately following Armageddon. Any attempt to say otherwise is just adding one's own symbolism to the literal words.

Brethren, the "day of the Lord" subject from the Old Testament prophets is ALWAYS about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming return to this earth.

In 'some' places in the Old Testament prophets, it reads like it was history, but really God is only giving an example of what He is going to do on the LAST DAY of this present world.

Even in 1 Corinthians 10, Apostle Paul told us to remember the Old Testament histories, because they serve as "ensamples" (examples) of events to come upon those at the end of the world. This is what he was talking about with the "day of the Lord" event, which is a future event of destruction from God on the LAST DAY of this world. So look back in the OT prophets and read those destruction EXAMPLES, because they are all pointing to the FINAL DESTRUCTION on the final day of this world when Jesus returns.

This is why Apostle Peter showed in 2 Peter 3:10 that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" with God's consuming fire burning all of man's works off this earth. Now if that had happened back in the time of God's Old Testament prophets, would this world still even be here today? No, of course not. So it only requires just a little... common sense when reading these Scriptures to know that 'day' is for the very END of this world, and NOT past history like the Preterist doctrines of men like to prey on the Biblically illiterate with.

Timtofly said:

You think humanity is to the point where they can literally change the way Revelation is written, even though John declared curses on those who do? Revelation 20 comes immediately after 19, and the topic of the battle of Armageddon is still being defined victory wise. It would be actually changing the words to declare the binding of Satan does not immediately follow, the beast and the FP being cast into the LOF.

It would take changing the words to state there is not a resurrection immediately after Armageddon. It would take changing the words to say there is not a 1000 year period immediately following Armageddon. Any attempt to say otherwise is just adding one's own symbolism to the literal words.

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Funny!

First you start off with scare tactics. Then you apply men's theories that all events in Revelation happen in the exact order they are written, a favorite fallacy for those who either don't know how to do reading comprehension, or are just completely drunken on men's doctrines that has deceived them.

For brethren that are interested, Jesus' return and the time of His wrath upon the wicked is shown on the 6th Seal, and 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. Now that's events from Rev.6, Rev.11, and Rev.16, so what kind of order... is this guy talking about, because he does not show common sense in that arena at all?

pittsburghjoe said:

Does anyone get how ridiculous it is to want a physical Kingdom just like the Jews overlooked? JESUS said He went to prepare a place for us ...He didn't say it was here for the infinite afterlife.

Please stop with this nonsense of a 1000 years where people have direct proof of GOD ...that's not how this works. This reality is built on the Free Will Choice to Choose GOD'S Plan of SALVATION. There is no choice if you can see GOD.

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Let me get this straight: you're saying chapters like Mic. 4, Zech. 14, and Dan. 7 should just discarded as "nonsense" or "ridiculous" because of your own failure to believe what the prophets wrote? It's no wonder why Christ called such people fools. It is extremely tragic that even the Pharisees understood the Messiah was supposed to rule over a literal kingdom, and yet "Christians" nowadays reduce that understanding to an emotional sentiment just because they can't wrap their minds around a concept as simple as believing what God inspired to be written.

pittsburghjoe said:

To claim there is Millennium Reign after His Return is to say He isn't a King now.

1 Timothy 6:15
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

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Rev. 20 shows why you are a deceiver:

"He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;" Rev. 20:2

The Bible plainly preaches the Millennial rule of Christ on this earth as biblical, but i guess you know better than the apostle God delivered this prophecy to, right? When the apostles spoke of the brethren being in God's Kingdom, the brethren were being assured that their place in that kingdom was guaranteed as long as they stayed loyal to what they were taught. That's not difficult to understand or accept. The fact that the apostles continued to preach of the soon-coming Kingdom of God after Christ's ascension should make it more obvious that it didn't arrive 1900 years ago!

pittsburghjoe said:

Does this not mean anything?

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

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Look at the passage you bolded: it is a FUTURE tense verb. Any English teacher would tell you that verbs that are communicated in future tense hasn't happened yet. If i said " i will wash my car", that automatically implies i haven't done it yet! What's so hard to understand about this?

pittsburghjoe said:

Does anyone get how ridiculous it is to want a physical Kingdom just like the Jews overlooked? JESUS said He went to prepare a place for us ...He didn't say it was here for the infinite afterlife.

Please stop with this nonsense of a 1000 years where people have direct proof of GOD ...that's not how this works. This reality is built on the Free Will Choice to Choose GOD'S Plan of SALVATION. There is no choice if you can see GOD.

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Actually Adam saw God, and still chose to disobey God. That is not a valid argument.

pittsburghjoe said:

Does Revelation 20:4-6 tell us there are two Millennium Reigns? Did the mark of the beast happen in the first one? Are we the priests in the second one?

Do the Martyrs and priests of Revelation 20 spiritually Reign with CHRIST a thousand years by being judges and spreading The Gospel until Satan is loosed?

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Spreading the Gospel during the Millennium?

That is like telling people in a democracy they need to vote every day to keep a President elected. The iron rod rule is the "gospel". Disobey Christ and it is immediate Death.

The Gospel is for a spiritual birth into a different family. The Millennium reign is not for adding souls to the church or heavenly Paradise. Paradise is completed at the Second Coming. The Millennium is the subjection of the earth, like is was before sin entered the world with Adam.

Christ is not beating into subjection with an iron rod souls into a spiritual family. The second birth is entrance to the spiritual family. No spiritual births are happening in the Millennium. It is either obey the Law or die. No in between, no prisons, and no chance to reform.

Desire Of All Nations said:

Let me get this straight: you're saying chapters like Mic. 4, Zech. 14, and Dan. 7 should just discarded as "nonsense" or "ridiculous" because of your own failure to believe what the prophets wrote? It's no wonder why Christ called such people fools. It is extremely tragic that even the Pharisees understood the Messiah was supposed to rule over a literal kingdom, and yet "Christians" nowadays reduce that understanding to an emotional sentiment just because they can't wrap their minds around a concept as simple as believing what God inspired to be written.
Rev. 20 shows why you are a deceiver:

"He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;" Rev. 20:2

The Bible plainly preaches the Millennial rule of Christ on this earth as biblical, but i guess you know better than the apostle God delivered this prophecy to, right? When the apostles spoke of the brethren being in God's Kingdom, the brethren were being assured that their place in that kingdom was guaranteed as long as they stayed loyal to what they were taught. That's not difficult to understand or accept. The fact that the apostles continued to preach of the soon-coming Kingdom of God after Christ's ascension should make it more obvious that it didn't arrive 1900 years ago!
Look at the passage you bolded: it is a FUTURE tense verb. Any English teacher would tell you that verbs that are communicated in future tense hasn't happened yet. If i said " i will wash my car", that automatically implies i haven't done it yet! What's so hard to understand about this?

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Yeah, it's easy for Christ's elect faithful servants to recognize the 'crept in unawares' that don't represent Him. Just think of it too, some of the orthodox unbelieving Jews try to make out like today's nation state of Israel is... the FINAL RETURN per Old Testament Scripture! That would mean exactly what these cats here are saying, that Israel has already been restored, even though the majority of Jews in today's nation state of Israel still treat Jesus of Nazareth as a seditionist.

pittsburghjoe said:

You would rather have your pretend 1000 years instead of facing that the test is right now. GOD doesn't give a generation an unfair chance of being Saved ...take a second and realize how ridiculous that would be. Everything you think that is going to happen in the Millennium Reign happens in the Infinite Afterlife.

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God is going to keep letting humans disobey Him, and He will keep destroying them forever?

Are you afraid of having no rules and no choices to break them? The church in glorified bodies will not be on the earth during the Millennium. They will be reigning from thrones in Paradise. We have not been told the full details. What is the point of knowing, when we cannot even get this current life right?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

This point by John in 1 John 3 has literally nor symbolically anything at all to do with Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is not about the church except to state, "and I saw thrones and them that set upon them" judged those being resurrected. Those being resurrected were not sitting on those thrones.

Pre-mill acknowledge or should that the church is reigning now from Paradise with Christ. They serve night and day in the temple of God. They are reigning priest. Just from Paradise. We are only Ambassadors on earth until we move into our positions in Paradise. No one in Paradise is waiting for some future event to be reigning priest with Christ. Paul states:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Many claim the raised part is spiritual, but it is the physical placement in Paradise, when the soul leaves this corruptible body for a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Talk about the Jesuit influencing eschatology. The RCC corrupted many passages and handed down false doctrine.

pittsburghjoe said:

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

//It doesn't say "Then after a thousand years".

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It does not say 1991 years after the Cross until the Second Coming either.

Do you deny the last 1991 years happened?

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; (the last 1991 years) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (The next 1000 years)
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Christ has reigned for the last 1991 years, and He will reign for the next 1000 years to hand over the earthly kingdom promised to David and his people. The thousand years includes the promises of Daniel 9:24.

APAK said:

Well Davy, here is some of my thinking as well as others who have researched this area in much more detail than I.

Let's start at Zechariah 14:1-2...
The Maccabean Wars started in second to the late first century before Christ, when the Seleucids, their growing empire conquered Judah and finally captured the city of Jerusalem. They plundered it and its temple. They killed many thousands of people, and took many women and children captive.

The expression 'all the nations' used in this scripture, denotes the various forces from several nations as part of the Seleucidan Empire gathered to fight against Judah and Jerusalem. The word 'all' does not mean that every nation or tribe that existed on the planet at that time. It meant those selected tribes of the Seleucidan Empire - the Greek, Persians, Babylonians, Arabs, Armenians, ancient Kurds, Syrians, even some of the 'lost' tribes of Israel, and others known to Zechariah and the people, geographically surrounding them from the North and Eastern borders at that time.

Verse 4 predicts that the Mount of Olives would split in two from East and to the West. The Mount is actually literally split into two, from East to the West since that time, the time of Christ on the earth, and today.

Now for verses 6-7 These are apparently also historical facts fulfilled in the miracle of Hanukah. This is where the holiday of Hanukah originated.

According to the Babylonian Talmud, after some Judahite rededicated the Temple, they discovered that they only had enough oil to keep the menorah lit for one day. However, the oil lasted eight days giving the Jews time to have new oil pressed out and properly prepared. The fact that Zechariah 14:7 predicts light in the evening seems to point to the miracle of Hanukah, the Festival of Lights.

.....there's more....

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How did Christ go back in time to fulfill what He promised in 30AD? Would they not have already claimed in the first century, the Messiah had already fulfilled all things?