The Trinity

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Davy

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See how your own verse refers to the Spirit of God?

By the way, you've got a long ways to go still, because eventually you've got to answer for Scriptures like this...

Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

KJV

Let's see, I believe I CAN count, unlike some others here, and it shouldn't be that difficult since 'most' of us have ten fingers, or if one prefers, ten toes, to count with:

1. "the Father", 2. "the Son", and 3. "the Holy Ghost"
 
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amadeus

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Jesus also said...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
KJV

So then was Jesus praying that you and I and others could become also part of God?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

...Thereby move God from Oneness to Twoness to Trinity and upward in Multiplicity as more and more of us are included as part of God? Was Jesus praying to accomplish that... to change the unchangeable God?

Was Jesus prayer for nought or amiss?


"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

Was Jesus a righteous man or even greater than any righteous man?
 

TEXBOW

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Genesis 1:26
Then God said, ``Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

I do not understand why some (actually a small minority within Christianity) try so hard to ignore the plain reading of the scripture. You can't be more than 1 minute into reading Genesis to discover the Trinity. Abandon the false tradition of men and just read your Bible.
 
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TEXBOW

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Man was made with a Body, Soul, and Spirit. (likeness)

Man is one being, one person.

God is one being, 3 persons.

Don't let your intellectual deficiencies trip you up regarding the Trinity. The Bible tells us therefore it's true. I do believe Heaven will be full of people who didn't fully understand the Trinity. The young soldier who died storming the beach at Guadacanal who was saved only days before or the elderly man who found salvation in his nursing home months before his death, the new Christian who never made it home after Church due to a car accident. Many did not have the opportunity to fully understand the Trinity and I suspect some will not understand it ever.
 
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GodsGrace

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Actually, what I have is a strong dislike for is the lies that masquerade as Christianity.
Would you be able to list some of those lies?
I posted the Nicene Creed (one of a few, but they're all basically the same).
This was to show who can call themselves a Christian.
If a person does not believe the Nicene Creed, he is not a Christian (or at least he should TRY to understand it).

What, in the Nicene Creed, do you believe to be a masquerade?
Has Christianity been wrong for 2,000 years and just now someone super intelligent discovered the masquerade?

Nicene Creed (325AD)
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,


and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.


I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Jesus himself forewarned that the same kind of apostasy that occurred in Judaism, would also occur in Christianity. A counterfeit form of the Christian Faith was to be sown by the devil (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) and these “weeds” which were sown long ago, were to grow along with the “wheat” in the same field....so both would exist in “the world” together, and identifying one from the other is vital....but not difficult.....you simply have to look at what they do, rather than what they say. Who are practicing what they preach? (Luke 6:46) Certainly not Christendom. (Matthew 7:21-23)
This could be referring to YOUR denomination...I believe you're a JW.
Your organization started just 150 years ago.
Christianity has been around from the beginning of the church that Jesus began.

After Jesus’ death, the apostles worked hard to keep the truth from being corrupted by those who wanted to introduce their own ideas about many things. Paul said that there was one acting as a “restraint” against this tide whilst they were alive, but after their death and the final books of the Christian scriptures were written, that window was closed, and the restraint was removed leading to a full blown apostasy which took place within a very short period of time. From the second century on the ECF's began to deviate from the Bible’s teachings and a weakened form of the faith kept growing like the “weeds” that Jesus had predicted.
In the 2nd century Christianity was still pure and the ECFs were able to remove heretics from the fellowships and churches that had been established.

The letters were already circulating and the new Christians were following their new faith.
They died for it.


By the 4th century the situation was ripe for the Emperor of Rome to introduce a new “State Religion”....one Universal (Catholic) faith that would be enjoined on all of his subjects. But this was a political move rather than a religious one. The only way to unite his divided empire was to introduce a single religion that incorporated tenets of both faiths. This Emperor never became a baptized Christian himself until on his deathbed.
The church was Catholic and universal BEFORE it became the official religion declared by Emperor Theodosius in 380AD.

This religion was not Christian, but a sad fusion of pagan sun worship and a very weakened form of Christianity. The Emperor who introduced Roman Catholicism was a worshipper of Zeus all his life....and if you see statues of Zeus, you will see a striking resemblance to Catholic images of Jesus.

images
images


Since Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew, for whom long hair was not permitted, (1 Corinthians 11:14) would this image really represent Jesus? And since images were forbidden in both Jewish and Christian worship, we have to wonder why Catholicism is full of them.....don’t we? (Exodus 20:4-5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

At the Vatican, you will also see in St Peter’s Square a Babylonian sun wheel with an obelisk in the middle, which was imported from Egypt, originally representing the sun god Ra. Why is it there?

images
images

images
images
images

Sun worship is very visible in the Catholic religion and the main reason why it’s 'holy day' was moved to “Sunday”. It’s all hiding in plain sight if you know what you’re looking at. Even the bread is in the shape of the sun...

So, no....it is not “Christianity” that I have a problem with....it’s what masquerades as such....shown up in everything it believes and teaches. The whole system I believe, is a complete departure from all that Christ and his apostles taught. This is probably why they are so against “sola scriptura”....because they know that what they teach is not from the Bible.

Would you like to discuss those departures? And compare scripture with what the church teaches?
I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment, but I do have grave doubts about the foundations of your faith. I have come from Christendom, so I studied all those beliefs very carefully to prove to myself where they came from, and what the truth was. Are you willing to do that?

Sure.
For the benefit of those reading along.

And, yes, it's Christianity you have a problem with.
So why do you have CHRISTIAN written under your avatar?

Why can't you be honest - like you'd want the church to be honest -
and declare what you really are/believe?

BTW,,,there's an Egyptian obelisk at the Met in NY too.
Are they also pagan?


LOL....you said it....”Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical”...I couldn’t agree more.
Oh really Aunt Jane, you're too intelligent for this....
It's apparent that I meant to type in a question mark.

The Bible is not the word of man, but the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).....no human is responsible for its contents and I can assure you of one thing....not a word in those scriptures was penned by a Catholic writer. Every book was written by a Jew....even the NT.
A human is responsible for every word in the bible, both the O.T. and the N.T.
Do you think God typed it?
The bible is INSPIRED....Inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.
I agree that it was all written by the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews.
Just like God meant it to be written by them for reasons you probably know.


You have never done any study in the book of Daniel? His prophesies pertain to “the time of the end” which we are living in right now. It was at this time that God said he would ‘purify, cleanse and refine’ his worshippers....yet not all would consent to the cleansing, preferring to stick to their evil ways, like the Pharisees of old.

“As for you, Daniel, keep these words secret, and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall fall away, and evils shall increase.”. . . . I heard what was said but I did not understand, so I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of all these things?” He replied, “Go on your way, Daniel, for these words are to be kept secret and remain sealed until the end time. “Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will persist in their evil ways.” (Daniel 12:4,8-10 - New Catholic Bible)

History is repeating, but the majority cannot see it...again, just like it was in the first century....the Jews rejected the truth based on what their defective religious leaders told them, and lost their place in God’s kingdom. It will happen again....

“Few” Jesus said, are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Can you tell me why?
Not too well versed in eschatology.
The end will come when it comes.
The JWs were sure the world would end in 1914 due to calculations taken from scripture.
If I remember, they gave it another 2 tries, but have since decided this is a bad idea.

Why will few find the narrow road?
Because it's small and much is required.
Luke 14:28
 

GodsGrace

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Sister, I do not insist that you believe as I do, but you should not insist that I do not want to believe in the Trinity.

I want to believe in the Truth, whatever it is!

I have argued with people and studied and prayed about the nature of God for many years. He has shown me many things but never that there is a Trinity. Neither has He has shown me that it does not exist. I do doubt that it exists because of things He has shown me. I won't share them as my testimonies are not up for debate. When people are really and sincerely seeking I do then want to share as God leads me. It is not for me, but for Him and perhaps sometimes for them [the ones who hunger and thirst after His righteousness].

Should I then want to understand the Trinity to be true because you believe it is? Are your words about this the very Word of God? If not, then why so insistent? Who but God knows for sure and for sure gives any real increase to men?

I strive to live for God 24/7. First above all things is where I place Him. But, no, I am not walking precisely in your tracks. I am living by faith, which according to what is written is:

"...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Because of history and because of the ways and apparent beliefs of the majority must you be right in your "knowledge" of these things?



Black and white it is... and you know for certain all of the truth even better than Paul did when he wrote these words?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
You should not believe in the Trinity because I do...
But because the early church did and those men learned from the Apostles.

And I'm not here to condemn anyone.
I'm sure everyone here has some belief or other that may not be understood by others.

However, a person should not come to a Christian forum and try to convince the others that they
have an incorrect belief about their religion/faith.
Some do this to try and weaken us Christians.
We were warned about this...
2 Peter 2:1...
1 Timothy 4:1...
1 Timothy 6:3-4
 
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Aunty Jane

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It sounds like we're discussion manuscript family variations.

But you think the difference is intentional?

That someone deliberately mistranslated a passage to change it's meaning in reference to their views regarding the trinity doctrine?
I believe that accurate translation is everything. When the text says “monogenes theos” is literally means “only begotten god”. So in keeping with the Greek definition of the world “theos” Jesus can indeed be “divine” (from God, having divine authority) but not BE God incarnate. When there is deliberate fudging of the translation, as demonstrated in the Mounce Interlinear’s translation of John 1:18, we should be wary. Many translations now render that verse as it was written, despite the difficulty of explaining how God can be “begotten”. Every “begotten” creature needs a ‘begetter’ who existed first and caused the begotten to come into existence. This only begotten son f God existed before all things, but he did not come into existence at the same time as his Father. He is God’s “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15)

If the pre-human Jesus was God, how does God send himself to complete a mission and yet remain in heaven? (John 17:3)
How can Jesus be called “God’s holy servant”, if he is God himself? (Acts 4:27, 30)
How does the Father know things that the son does not? (Matthew 24:36)
To whom did Jesus pray? And why did he need his Father to provide legions of angels to protect him?

The trinity begs way more questions than it answers.
 

GodsGrace

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Appeal to Authority. I am a unitarian Christian.

It would be nice if you removed your trinitarian bias in bringing people to Christ.

Said differently, if you had to choose, would you rather:
A. I am saved, come to Christ believing his Father is the only God.
B. I am not saved because I reject the trinity.

A or B.
I don't speak to salvation as in your question.
This is something for God to know, not me.

But I'll say this:
The problem with A is that you claim to be a Christian.
A Christian is something specific.
A Christian believes Jesus is God.

So, if you're following Jesus...WHOM are you following?
Is it a man?
If so, you're in a cult.
You will be lost for not obeying the 2nd commandment:
YOU WILL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME...
And here you are...worshipping the man Jesus! Sounds serious.

B is the same. You reject the Trinity...you reject Jesus as God.
So what exactly makes you a Christian??
 

GodsGrace

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That is where you are dead wrong....JW's do believe in the divinity of Christ.....we just do not believe in his deity, which is not mentioned even once in scripture. Christendom gets these two things muddled....but they are not interchangeable terms.


Who are you to say who is and who isn't a Christian?....Jesus has that privilege, unless of course he has delegated that assignment to you...? o_O


Are you speaking for "all Christians" now, many of whom do not subscribe to much of what you believe.....?


By their fruits...Jesus said. Rotten fruit comes off rotten trees. (Matthew 7:16-19)
Funny Aunt Jane.
Are YOU speaking for all JWs?

And FOR THE LAST TIME...
it's not ME who decides who is a Christian....
that has already been decided.
See my previous post to you with one of the CREED's, which states WHO IS A CHRISTIAN.
 
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GodsGrace

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Just remember , a broken clock is still right twice a day . NEVER FOLLOW the catholic church . EVEN if it had this right
Is every other church PERFECT except for the Catholic Church?
I follow Jesus.
But I've learned a lot from the Catholic Church and also other denominations.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Do you hold to the idea that Jesus is a god, but not THE God, YHWH? Or do you you see that differently?
I believe that what the scriptures teach as a whole is the truth. I believe that the Jews never entertained belief in a three headed god but were assured that the Messiah was 100% human...not a god/man.
Was Jesus “divine” (from God) yes I do. Eli eve he was...was he an equal of eternal his God and Father....no and he never once claimed to be.

I ask because of your reference to the Kingdom Interlinear. One of the things I've looked at is how it translates John 1:1. Not that I'm wanting to debate the translation of that verse with you, I'm not. I'm just wondering if you perceive Jesus to be as do other Jehovah's Witnesses that I've known.

Since it renders English as it is phrased in Greek, and “theos” can refer to any god, even the devil, the word “god” is not always a reference to Jehovah.

That being, "there are gods many and lords many", and so "the Word was with God, and the Word was a god", so then Jesus is a god, but not THE God YHWH. Do you agree with that?
Yes....one can be divine without being Almighty God. Jesus is never once referred to in those terms.

The apostles knew who their God was because they were Jews. It would have been unthinkable and a blasphemy for them to assume that he was God incarnate. The Pharisees seized upon this aspect to pin a charge of blasphemy on him when all he ever claimed to be was “the Son of God”.[/quote]
 

GodsGrace

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I believe that accurate translation is everything. When the text says “monogenes theos” is literally means “only begotten god”. So in keeping with the Greek definition of the world “theos” Jesus can indeed be “divine” (from God, having divine authority) but not BE God incarnate. When there is deliberate fudging of the translation, as demonstrated in the Mounce Interlinear’s translation of John 1:18, we should be wary. Many translations now render that verse as it was written, despite the difficulty of explaining how God can be “begotten”. Every “begotten” creature needs a ‘begetter’ who existed first and caused the begotten to come into existence. This only begotten son f God existed before all things, but he did not come into existence at the same time as his Father. He is God’s “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15)

If the pre-human Jesus was God, how does God send himself to complete a mission and yet remain in heaven? (John 17:3)
How can Jesus be called “God’s holy servant”, if he is God himself? (Acts 4:27, 30)
How does the Father know things that the son does not? (Matthew 24:36)
To whom did Jesus pray? And why did he need his Father to provide legions of angels to protect him?

The trinity begs way more questions than it answers.
Whoa.
Looks like you may not even believe in God Father/Jehovah/Yahweh/God Almighty....

God can do anything He wishes to do!
He created the universe...
I think He can do those simple things you mention in your above post.

You should do some studying and find the answers to your own questions.
Get away a little bit from all that brainwashing you've been through.
Find out what real Christians believe about God.

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
THE WORD WAS GOD

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
WITH GOD

Jesus is not CREATED
He is GOD
He was WITH GOD from the beginning....
From forever
From eternity...
There was NO BEGINNING with God...it's just the way we speak....finitely.
 
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marks

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I believe that accurate translation is everything. When the text says “monogenes theos” is literally means “only begotten god”. So in keeping with the Greek definition of the world “theos” Jesus can indeed be “divine” (from God, having divine authority) but not BE God incarnate. When there is deliberate fudging of the translation, as demonstrated in the Mounce Interlinear’s translation of John 1:18, we should be wary. Many translations now render that verse as it was written, despite the difficulty of explaining how God can be “begotten”. Every “begotten” creature needs a ‘begetter’ who existed first and caused the begotten to come into existence. This only begotten son f God existed before all things, but he did not come into existence at the same time as his Father. He is God’s “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15)
But you are using the Alexandrian mss based Bibles, is that right? I don't. I'm aware of the differences. I'm not really into a discussion on that at this time.

There is no difficulty, btw . . . "a body you have prepared for me." We don't need to confuse the God Who took on flesh with the flesh body He took on.

You apparenty have Jesus as a "created thing", while it was through Jesus everything was made that was made.

Your Father who begot a Son, in the way you mean, is a God Who changes, and is therefore not the God of the Bible. "I the LORD change not", He declares through Malachi.

The God alone becomes a Father with a Son in your view, apparently.

BTW . . . was that you I had asked, how many true Gods are there?

Much love!
 
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marks

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I believe that what the scriptures teach as a whole is the truth. I believe that the Jews never entertained belief in a three headed god but were assured that the Messiah was 100% human...not a god/man.
Was Jesus “divine” (from God) yes I do. Eli eve he was...was he an equal of eternal his God and Father....no and he never once claimed to be.



Since it renders English as it is phrased in Greek, and “theos” can refer to any god, even the devil, the word “god” is not always a reference to Jehovah.


Yes....one can be divine without being Almighty God. Jesus is never once referred to in those terms.

The apostles knew who their God was because they were Jews. It would have been unthinkable and a blasphemy for them to assume that he was God incarnate. The Pharisees seized upon this aspect to pin a charge of blasphemy on him when all he ever claimed to be was “the Son of God”.

In all that you didn't answer my question. Why not?

How many true Gods do you believe exist?

I'll go first. I believe there is ONE True God.

You? Do you likewise believe in only ONE True God?

Much love!
 

amadeus

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You should not believe in the Trinity because I do...
But because the early church did and those men learned from the Apostles.
You are a student of things outside of the scriptures about which I have mostly only heard bits and pieces from others. My textbook, if I have one, is the Bible. I do not see the early church as per what I have read in scripture believing the Trinity.

Because of what others have said on forums like this one, I have searched for the Trinity in scriptures where they suggested it was to found. I never have found it. I will listen to people if they are sincere, but sincerity does not make a person right. It doesn't make me right either, but I cannot change because someone disagrees...

Only God gives real increases to people and in a belief in the Trinity He has never increased me.

And I'm not here to condemn anyone.
Really glad to hear this.

Some people say they are not, but what they post often tells me a different story. I have seen in a better Spirit in this regard.

That does not mean I will agree with you on every point. To me, the most important point, is to be the Lord's side, which is a thing of the heart rather the mind or any doctrine held by men. When it is in the heart really, the mind may lag some, but not fully disagree. That is my thinking [from my heart?] rather than any verbatim thing from the Bible.

I'm sure everyone here has some belief or other that may not be understood by others.
On this we likely do agree!
However, a person should not come to a Christian forum and try to convince the others that they
have an incorrect belief about their religion/faith.
Some do this to try and weaken us Christians.
We were warned about this...
2 Peter 2:1...
1 Timothy 4:1...
Usually, I strive not to press a person to believe what I do. If they are open to it, or they ask specifically of me, they may hear where I am...

When I am accused or challenged in where I stand... sometimes I respond. Other times I remain silent.

When I do respond, I strive to do so in the right Spirit rather than in my own spirit. When I do speak, I must speak what I believe is Truth, God's Truth, even if it disagrees with everyone else here.

I am here on this forum rather than others because they allow me to be here even though I am not walking the road that so many main-line Christian church groups would prescribe.

Like everyone else I believe that I am right... or I would change. I believe that I am a Christian, at least, what I call a Christian. I know that others have different definitions for the word. This is why many people here do not really communicate with each other.

They speak different languages in English. Some people insist that I speak in their language even though I do not know their language. Does that make sense?
 
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GodsGrace

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But you are using the Alexandrian mss based Bibles, is that right? I don't. I'm aware of the differences. I'm not really into a discussion on that at this time.

There is no difficulty, btw . . . "a body you have prepared for me." We don't need to confuse the God Who took on flesh with the flesh body He took on.

You apparenty have Jesus as a "created thing", while it was through Jesus everything was made that was made.

Your Father who begot a Son, in the way you mean, is a God Who changes, and is therefore not the God of the Bible. "I the LORD change not", He declares through Malachi.

The God alone becomes a Father with a Son in your view, apparently.

BTW . . . was that you I had asked, how many true Gods are there?

Much love!
Can I say how much I dislike that word:
BEGOTTEN

Thanks!
:)
 

GodsGrace

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You are a student of things outside of the scriptures about which I have mostly only heard bits and pieces from others. My textbook, if I have one, is the Bible. I do not see the early church as per what I have read in scripture believing the Trinity.

Because of what others have said on forums like this one, I have searched for the Trinity in scriptures where they suggested it was to found. I never have found it. I will listen to people if they are sincere, but sincerity does not make a person right. It doesn't make me right either, but I cannot change because someone disagrees...

Only God gives real increases to people and in a belief in the Trinity He has never increased me.


Really glad to hear this.

Some people say they are not, but what they post often tells me a different story. I have seen in a better Spirit in this regard.

That does not mean I will agree with you on every point. To me, the most important point, is to be the Lord's side, which is a thing of the heart rather the mind or any doctrine held by men. When it is in the heart really, the mind may lag some, but not fully disagree. That is my thinking [from my heart?] rather than any verbatim thing from the Bible.


On this we likely do agree!

Usually, I strive not to press a person to believe what I do. If they are open to it, or they ask specifically of me, they may hear where I am...

When I am accused or challenged in where I stand... sometimes I respond. Other times I remain silent.

When I do respond, I strive to do so in the right Spirit rather than in my own spirit. When I do speak, I must speak what I believe is Truth, God's Truth, even if it disagrees with everyone else here.

I am here on this forum rather than others because they allow me to be here even though I am not walking the road that so many main-line Christian church groups would prescribe.

Like everyone else I believe that I am right... or I would change. I believe that I am a Christian, at least, what I call a Christian. I know that others have different definitions for the word. This is why many people here do not really communicate with each other.

They speak different languages in English. Some people insist that I speak in their language even though I do not know their language. Does that make sense?
Yes Amadeus!
That makes sense.
Sometimes 2 persons will be saying exactly the same thing and they're not even aware of it.
I've known you some years now and I don't place you in the same category that some here are in.
A person can believe what they will....God accepts those who love Him and live for Him and honor Him.
I cannot remember a time when you wrote pages and pages trying to convince others that you were right in your belief system.

I see a couple of persons doing this here. They were not here when I left for a while...my husband was sick.
I'm rather shocked to see these discussions to tell you the truth.

There's another poster here who is an old (in time!) member that does not have orthodox beliefs, but he is not
SO LOUD about them.

It's the loudness that is bothersome.
That title of "Christian" under the avatar of such a loud person seems to be incorrect to me.
It's like...if I went to a site of the Witnesses, wrote JW under my avatar,
and then proceeded to convince them they should become Christian !

It just doesn't seem right.