"The word was a god"?

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Kermos

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Please help me to understand what is meant here. If Jesus was "a god" then He could be THE God or a false god. What else could this mean? How can Jesus be "a god"?

Well, Jack, you get the fact that no scripture states that Jesus was created.

And I'm guessing that you know that a person thinking that John 1:1 means that Jesus is a god results in such a person having at least two gods (Jehovah + Jesus = 2 gods), so such a person's philosophy results in an other "god" being before God for such a person's salvation; therefore, such a person practices sin against God (Matthew 7:23) because of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3) - the Word written by God's own finger.
 

Carl Emerson

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I'm afraid I cannot weigh in on that one, one way or the other. If he had been named "Emmanuel" rather than "Jesus" I might be on surer footing to hazard a guess -- but as it is, I'll just have to plead ignorance here. (As in most things . . .)

He is called Emmanuel and Jesus and the Everlasting Father and the I AM - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One in Nature and Name.
 

Johann

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The meaning is uncertain. The Textus Receptus has ους δεδωκας μοι ("those which you have given me") with the accusative plural ους aligning with the accusative plural αὐτοὺς ("them") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to the apostles. Wescott & Hort/Nestle has ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι ("which you have given me"), where the dative singular ᾧ aligns with the dative singular ὀνόματί ("name") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to God's name.

So, is it ους or is it ᾧ? Tough to tell. Fans of the KJV will be inclined to the former: King Jimmie follows the Textus Receptus, and so translates v. 12 as "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept." And this interpretation of John's meaning -- after all, it is John's meaning that we are trying to get at here -- is much more in tune with John 18:9.

But King Jimmie is in the minority. And I am tending toward your view, Carl, i.e., that John is suggesting Jesus was given the Father's name. I think Wescott & Hort/Nestle's language is better attested from the majority of ancient manuscripts. Nevertheless, caution is called for.

In any event, if the verse does mean that Jesus was given the Father's name (YHWH, I Am Who Am, whatever you care to stick in here) it still cannot be said that John intended his readers to assume that the humanly-given name "Jesus" is actually the Father's name as well! That's just silly. (John deliberately applies the divine name “I am” to Jesus in 8:58.) So while I will tentatively agree with you that John is suggesting "Jesus was given the Father's name," I strongly disagree that John is suggesting "the Fathers name is Jesus also."
Do you have the full TR text, and could you add that here? Because the word "ᾧ" (RelPro-DNS) and the word "οὓς" (RelPro-AMP) are two different forms of the same word (Strong's G3739) and my copy of the Textus Receptus (TR) does not show the difference you claim here. –
Polyhat
Aug 1, 2021 at 23:05


1

On John 17:11, I believe the KJV is God's Word and the greek is what it says. Other versions and Hort falsify the KJV and Hort is used by the ASV, RSV, NASV, and most other alternative versions. They change verses willy nilly to support 'man's free will' -- as Romans 3:22 "faith of Christ" changed to "faith in Christ" to support Arminian free williness (of the devil).

So our verse stands as the KJV has it! The verse reads "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those thou hast given me..." It says plainly "through thine 'God's' own name 'those' disciples thou hast given to Christ"

So, the KJV is absolutely right. Read it slowly. THE KJV IS GOD'S WORD absolutely Ron Johnson

Ne, stop reading textual variants casting doubts on the infallible Holy Scriptures, ol' Westcort and Textus are not the same and KJV is the primary scripture, unless, of course, you consider yourself a scholar and can insert or omit Greek scriptures or rewrite a New Testament.

J.
 

Johann

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Do you believe what you read in these verses?

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”

John 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 11:3
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”

1 Corinthians 8:6
“There is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

1 Corinthians 15:28
“But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Philippians 2:9
“For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.”

John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.”

John 14:28
“The Father is greater than I am.”

Mark 13:32
“Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”

John 20:17
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

1 Peter 1:3
“Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 3:12
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

You seem to dismiss the Deity of our Lord and great God, Christ Jesus.
J.
 

Carl Emerson

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Matthew 28
8 And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to report to His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Rejoice!” And they came up and took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus *said to them, “Do not be afraid; go, bring word to My brothers to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

The Risen Jesus was worshiped - we are to worship God alone.

Jesus is God.
 

tigger 2

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The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo!

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc.

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).
 

Carl Emerson

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John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
 

tigger 2

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Expressions in the Bible like ‘in Christ’ - “denote membership in Christ and his church ... 1 Thess. 4:16; Ro. 8:1; 16:11” - Kittel, p. 233, and #45 in ‘Hints and Helps’, Young’s Analytical Concordance. And sure enough, when we look up these scriptures, we see that they use en, ἐν, which is usually translated “in.” But notice how these trinitarian Bibles render these verses:

1 Th. 4:16 - “the dead in [en] Christ shall rise first.” - NASB.

“the dead in union with [en] Christ will rise” - CBW.

“those who have died believing in [en] Christ will rise” - TEV (Cf 4:14).

“those who belong to [en] Christ will come out of their graves” - NLV.

“the believers who are dead will be the first to rise” - Living Bible.

“first those who died in union with [en] Christ will rise” - AT

Ro. 8:1 - “There is...no condemnation for those who are in [en] Christ Jesus” - NASB.

“there is no ... for those who are in union with [en] Christ Jesus” - CBW.

“There is no ... for those who live in union with [en] Christ Jesus” - TEV.

“those who belong to [en] Christ will not suffer....” - NLV.

“those who belong to [en] Christ Jesus” - Living Bible.

“those who are united with [en] Christ Jesus” - REB.

“those who are in union with [en] Christ Jesus” - AT (Smith-Goodspeed)

Ro. 16:11 - “those of the household of Narcissus, who are in [en] the Lord” - NASB.

“...in the family of Narcissus that belong to [en] the Lord” - ETRV.

“the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord’s fellowship” - NEB.

“the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord’s fellowship” - REB.

“the household of Narcissus who belong to [en] the Lord” - JB.

“those who belong to [en] the Lord in the household of Narcissus” - NJB.

And so it is that Jesus, in prayer to God, says: “As you, Father, are in [ἐν] me and I am in [ἐν] you, may they [Jesus’ followers] also be in [ἐν] us” - John 17:21, NRSV.

Since trinitarians generally want some mysterious, physical “oneness” with Jesus and the Father to indicate that they are both, somehow, God, they usually leave ἐν in this scripture as the more literal “in.” However, the fact that Jesus’ followers, too, are to be ἐν Jesus and ἐν the Father makes it reasonable that a simple unity of purpose or agreement is being described here.

That is why even some trinitarian Bibles render John 17:21 as

“just as you, Father, are in union with me and I in union with you, for them to be in union with [en] us” - CBW.

“... let them be in union with [en] us” - AT (Smith and Goodspeed).

“May they belong to us” - NLV.

And respected trinitarian commentaries even explain that John 17:21 is telling us that there must be “unity among believers” - p. 280, Vol. V, Word Pictures in the New Testament, A.T. Robertson.
 
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OzSpen

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Hi Jack, Jesus never claimed to be God or any other God.

Dropship,

This is not true. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (ESV). I'm a retired teacher of NT Greek and there's a fundamental of Greek grammar that needs to be applied to get the translation, "the Word was God."

Even though there is no definite article, "the," before God, we know that we don't translate as "a" God because Greek grammar states that when there is a verb "to be" in a sentence, to indicate which part is the predicate nominative of the sentence and is not the subject, there is no article to indicate it's the predicate nominative. Therefore, "the Word was God" confirms that Jesus was God.

Oz
 
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tigger 2

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First, Dropship said correctly that JESUS never claimed to be God. John 1:1 has JOHN saying that the Word was theos.

Second, the use or non-use of the article is not a designator for the predicate noun. But, for count nouns as predicate nouns, it is a sign that the P.N. is definite or indefinite. The real reason the P.N. is most often indefinite is the same in English. We normally mention the subject as either definite or indefinite, but the P.N. is usually indefinite: "The man was a robber;" "The animal was a cow;" "The cow is an animal." However, Greek, like English, sometimes uses a definite P.N. also: "He is the president;" "the cat was the thief;" etc. Compare John 1:21.

Also examine these P.N.s which are parallel to John 1:1c (P.N. before verb):
H. ....1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...2. John 4:19 - indefinite ("a prophet")
H,W...3. John 6:70 - indefinite ("a devil"/"a slanderer")
H,W...4. John 8:44 (a) - indefinite ("a mankiller/murderer")
H,W...5. John 8:48 - indefinite ("a Samaritan")
H,W...6. John 9:24 - indefinite ("a sinner")
H,W...7. John 10:1 - indefinite ("a thief and a plunderer")
H,W...8. John 10:33 - indefinite ("a man")
H,W...9. John 18:35 - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite ("a king")
[H,W..11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite ("a king") - Received Text and 1991 Byzantine text]
H,W
12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”)
H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”)
H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”)
H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”)
H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”)
H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”)
18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”)
......................................................
H: Also found in Philip B. Harner's list of "Colwell Constructions"
W: Also found in Daniel B. Wallace's list of "Colwell Constructions"

Therefore, the probable definition for John 1:1c is also indefinite: “a god.”
 

Dropship

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..."the Word was God" confirms that Jesus was God.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
So because God is a spirit, he doesn't take human form, and speaks to us through the mouths of the prophets and Jesus instead..:)
"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2)

As for "the Word was God" that's the holy spirit that fills the universe like 'The Force' in Star Wars-
"The Force surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together"-Obi Wan Kenobi
"A Jedi's strength flows from the Force, you must feel the Force around you"- Jedi Master Yoda

And it was strongest in Jesus-
"The Force is strong with this one."- Darth Vader
But if some people want to think Jesus was God, I don't suppose it does any harm..:)
 

Johann

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First, Dropship said correctly that JESUS never claimed to be God. John 1:1 has JOHN saying that the Word was theos.

Second, the use or non-use of the article is not a designator for the predicate noun. But, for count nouns as predicate nouns, it is a sign that the P.N. is definite or indefinite. The real reason the P.N. is most often indefinite is the same in English. We normally mention the subject as either definite or indefinite, but the P.N. is usually indefinite: "The man was a robber;" "The animal was a cow;" "The cow is an animal." However, Greek, like English, sometimes uses a definite P.N. also: "He is the president;" "the cat was the thief;" etc. Compare John 1:21.

Also examine these P.N.s which are parallel to John 1:1c (P.N. before verb):
H. ....1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...2. John 4:19 - indefinite ("a prophet")
H,W...3. John 6:70 - indefinite ("a devil"/"a slanderer")
H,W...4. John 8:44 (a) - indefinite ("a mankiller/murderer")
H,W...5. John 8:48 - indefinite ("a Samaritan")
H,W...6. John 9:24 - indefinite ("a sinner")
H,W...7. John 10:1 - indefinite ("a thief and a plunderer")
H,W...8. John 10:33 - indefinite ("a man")
H,W...9. John 18:35 - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite ("a king")
[H,W..11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite ("a king") - Received Text and 1991 Byzantine text]
H,W
12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”)
H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”)
H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”)
H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”)
H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”)
H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”)
18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”)
......................................................
H: Also found in Philip B. Harner's list of "Colwell Constructions"
W: Also found in Daniel B. Wallace's list of "Colwell Constructions"

Therefore, the probable definition for John 1:1c is also indefinite: “a god.”
You are no scholar, so leave John 1:1 and lean not unto your own understanding.
I know the urge to sound to sound sophomoric and highly intellectual and to know all the answers in the scriptures is fleshly driven, mere intellectual, stoical knowledge, acquired gnosis, so please, down with th pride and just believe what you read, and Christ Jesus IS Theos, Theos pros ho Theos..


Was with God (ἦν πὸς τὸν Θεὸν)
Anglo-Saxon vers., mid Gode. Wyc., at God. With (πρός) does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better. The preposition πρός, which, with the accusative case, denotes motion towards, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as being near or beside, but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of intercourse. Thus: “Are not his sisters here with us” (πρὸς ἡμᾶς), i.e., in social relations with us (Mar_6:3; Mat_13:56). “How long shall I be with you” (πρὸς ὑμᾶς, Mar_9:16). “I sat daily with you” (Mat_26:55). “To be present with the Lord” (πρὸς τὸν Κύριον, 2Co_5:8). “Abide and winter with you” (1Co_16:6). “The eternal life which was with the Father” (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα, 1Jn_1:2). Thus John's statement is that the divine Word not only abode with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him.
And the Word was God (καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος)
In the Greek order, and God was the Word, which is followed by Anglo-Saxon, Wyc., and Tynd. But θεὸς, God, is the predicate and not the subject of the proposition. The subject must be the Word; for John is not trying to show who is God, but who is the Word. Notice that Θεὸς is without the article, which could not have been omitted if he had meant to designate the word as God; because, in that event, Θεὸς would have been ambiguous; perhaps a God. Moreover, if he had said God was the Word, he would have contradicted his previous statement by which he had distinguished (hypostatically) God from the word, and λόγος (Logos) would, further, have signified only an attribute of God. The predicate is emphatically placed in the proposition before the subject, because of the progress of the thought; this being the third and highest statement respecting the Word - the climax of the two preceding propositions. The word God, used attributively, maintains the personal distinction between God and the Word, but makes the unity of essence and nature to follow the distinction of person, and ascribes to the Word all the attributes of the divine essence. “There is something majestic in the way in which the description of the Logos, in the three brief but great propositions of Joh_1:1, is unfolded with increasing fullness” (Meyer).
Vincent


(2) If the Word was thus in the beginning, what relation did He hold to God? Was He identical or opposed? ὁ λόγος ἦν πρός τὸν θεόν. πρός implies not merely existence alongside of but personal intercourse. It means more than μετά or παρά, and is regularly employed in expressing the presence of one person with another. Thus in classical Greek, τήν πρός Σωκράτην συνουσίαν, and in N. T. Mar_6:3, Mat_13:56, Mar_9:19, Gal_1:18, 2Jn_1:12. This preposition implies intercourse and therefore separate personality. As Chrysostom says: “Not in God but with God, as person with person, eternally”.
(3) The Word is distinguishable from God and yet Θεὸς ἧν ὁ λόλος, the Word was God, of Divine nature; not “a God,” which to a Jewish ear would have been abominable; nor yet identical with all that can be called God, for then the article would have been inserted (cf. 1Jn_3:4). “The Christian doctrine of the Trinity was perhaps before anything else an effort to express how Jesus Christ was God (Θεός) and yet in another sense was not God (ὁ θεός), that is to say, was not the whole Godhead.” Consult Du Bose’s Ecumenical Councils, p. 70–73. Luther says “the Word was God” is against Arius: “the Word was with God” against Sabellius.
Clarke

Still want to argue that the Memra is "a god?"
J.
 

keithr

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... such a person practices sin against God (Matthew 7:23) because of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3) - the Word written by God's own finger.
Note what God wrote - "You shall have no other gods before me". The Hebrew word translated as before, al, means above, over, upon or against. For example, it's used in Genesis 1:2,20:

2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
20) And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.​

YHWH did not say that you shall not have any other gods, He just said that you should not consider any other god (mighty being, or ruler) to be above God in authority and power.

We can have other rulers, but we should not consider them more important and above God. As Jesus taught, Mark 12:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus answered them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” They marveled greatly at him.​
 

Johann

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Jesus says he is not equal to the Father. Jesus says the Father is greater and know more. What do you say about that?

Also, this thread is not about that but worshipping the Bible or God.
You, ol' Barn, and the poster of this thread are in error.
J.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Jesus says he is not equal to the Father. Jesus says the Father is greater and know more. What do you say about that?

Also, this thread is not about that but worshipping the Bible or God.

Firstly, Jesus also says very clearly, "that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23). Note Jesus' use of "καθὼς", which means, "just as, in the same way". Only if Jesus were Himself EQUAL with the Father, Who is Almighty God, can He have made such a statement. In the previous verse Jesus says, "or the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son". This means that Jesus Christ, and not the Father, is The Ultimate Judge, and the One Who is in Revelation, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him Who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them" (20:11), etc. Again, Jesus cannot have this position as JUDGE, if He were not YHWH.

The Father says "to WORSHIP Jesus" in Hebrews 1:6, which is the reading of the New World Translation, in their 1950 edition, before they changed it because it refers to Jesus Christ!
 

Johann

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Firstly, Jesus also says very clearly, "that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23). Note Jesus' use of "καθὼς", which means, "just as, in the same way". Only if Jesus were Himself EQUAL with the Father, Who is Almighty God, can He have made such a statement. In the previous verse Jesus says, "or the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son". This means that Jesus Christ, and not the Father, is The Ultimate Judge, and the One Who is in Revelation, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him Who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them" (20:11), etc. Again, Jesus cannot have this position as JUDGE, if He were not YHWH.

The Father says "to WORSHIP Jesus" in Hebrews 1:6, which is the reading of the New World Translation, in their 1950 edition, before they changed it because it refers to Jesus Christ!

Nicely done
J.