The Gospel of Grace:

brother dave said:

you dont seem to have much understanding? could you define holiness?

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Holiness is Following, Imitating, Christ's example as well as following all of His teachings. Including asking God often for His Spirit to replace ours.
Anything else you like to know?





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Son of Man said:

Holiness is Following, Imitating, Christ's example as well as following all of His teachings. Including asking God often for His Spirit to replace ours.
Anything else you like to know?





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Gal 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any force, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.


is this what you are speaking of?

and do you believe the Holy Spirit ever departs from a true believer?

for you said
"asking God often" do you not believe one can always have and walk in His Spirit?

1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him verily the love of God is perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that says he abides in him ought, even as *he* walked, himself also so to walk.

Hi brother dave,

Son of Man is speaking of this which Paul describes in Philippians 1:

and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed

i must get to my work, but i find your answer a bit confusing in light of clear scripture! hope you can better define what you mean by "ASKING GOD OFTEN FOR HIS SPIRIT" seems very odd for a true believer?

dragonfly said:

Hi brother dave,

Son of Man is speaking of this which Paul describes in Philippians 1:

and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed

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NO! dragonfly! he said to "replace ours often"!

Hi brother dave,

I will leave Son of Man to justify his own words.



Here is another important verse for you, about continuing to receive the Holy Spirit. The Greek tense means 'be being filled'.

Ephesians 5:18b '... but be filled with the Spirit'.

dragonfly said:

Hi haz,

There is something that you're missing in your understanding, or you would not be hammering away with the same argument after all these days. Even when it has been pointed out to you repeatedly that we are not talking about fulfilling the Law of Moses, you keep returning to it. I can only assume this is something to do with doctrine you have received separately from having studied scripture, and you have not been guided in your studies by those who are filled with the Holy Spirit's illumination.

You have consciously and deliberately chosen - in this discussion - to aligne yourself with the term 'gospel of grace', regardless of the details believed by some here who proclaim what they call 'the gospel of grace'. That's interfered with our discussion, too. As a result, I agree we've been circling the same issues with no progress. You've aligned yourself with a group who either do not believe in victory over sin, or, who do not believe all NT teachings. But, if you would be willing to apply yourself to understanding the 'gospel of grace' which the apostles preached, and re-aligning your statement of faith with it, we will find all the common ground which the New Testament offers.

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Here is an example of the divisions within the faulty gospel of grace camp, in that you are talking about forgiveness, whereas some don't believe forgiveness is necessary. Or, don't believe the need to approach Him for for forgiveness even if they believe forgiveness is necessary. They think it happens automatically. But I'm glad you don't agree with that, and you take the teachings of Jesus Christ, seriously.

I have never said God will not forgive. Episkopos has never said God will not forgive. What Episkopos is saying is, that the believers who believe it's okay to continue in sin, are in for a shock when they discover it was not okay to sin as a lifestyle; it was not okay to sin sometimes; it was not okay to go from one sin to the next with an unrepentant heart towards God; and it was not okay to do their own will. Are you following? If you are, you will see that a believer who discounts the teachings of Jesus Christ, and who misunderstands the true gospel of grace which the apostles preached, is laying themselves open to becoming a branch that has been cut off by the Father because they are ignorant of His ways. 1 John 2:6

Regarding this perfection of lifestyle which troubles you, it is really not what you think it is. You are correct to begin with Heb 10:14 which defines our condition in the spiritual realm. This is not imputed righteousness - it is imparted to us because the Holy Spirit makes it real in us. Here is one way to understand this: Christ in you. (Col 1:27). If you don't believe Christ is in you, His life being given not only to you but to the world through your body - treasure in earthen vessels - that is a blockage to the freedom which can be found in Christ, to do His will continuously as we are commanded.

It is not uncommon for Christians to disbelieve that Christ is in them. Sometimes it's because Christ is not in them. They have not received the Holy Spirit at all, or, they have no idea what the Bible tells Christians to be. As a result, they carry on living the way they were, with a new label stuck to their lives. Sometimes the Holy Spirit has come to them and they feel worse than they did before they believed, because now Christ in them is ordering all the garbage to be carried out of the temple of their lives, and they don't necessarily want to see it go! This is a common battle, which Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 10:3 - 6 - a battle which we have to allow God to win in us, for His glory to show through more and more. 2 Cor 3:18.


After all our posts to each other, I still can't understand why you do not agree that a Christian should 'do' things differently as a natural response to becoming in right relationship with God through faith. The thing which comes through by what you have not said - is that it is something to do with giving up sinning. Either you don't believe that's possible, or, you don't want to stop. It seems there is a focus by Christians today, on sin in the flesh, which is the exact opposite of what the apostles experienced after they received the power of the Holy Spirit. I (speaking for myself) believe that wrong focus is spiritually unhealthy. No-one who is looking at a sin and longing for it has the same hope of overcoming it, as if they stop looking at it and look to the Lord, and pray to be delivered from that temptation and go do something God can approve, instead. That is the way to live free from sin.

Every sin separates us from God, and in order to be right with God, all sin has to be removed - not just with regard to our sinful actions, but the bondage to sin itself, which causes us to sin - this has to be addressed. This is what Jesus Christ addressed on the cross. He did not just die as a sacrifice for our sins - sins being the actions which flow from a sinful nature - but He defeated the power of the sin nature - the devil - while He was on the cross. We do not just waltz into resurrection life and the power to live free from sin, without also accepting the death sentence within ourselves to our own sinful nature. This is the portal to victory over sin.

This is where the faulty 'gospel of grace' falters, in that it seems to resist the outworking in our flesh of victory over sin, while wanting to claim that through God's endless grace, sin is accounted for by Christ's death. That is true at the first coming, but after that we can no longer claim to be ignorant of, or powerless, to fulfil God's demands upon us as His sons.

Example - a man who beats his wife every night after taking too much alcohol, who one day becomes a Christian, is expected to stop consuming too much alcohol and to stop beating his wife. Such changes would be the life of Christ working in him (grace) - his faith, in action. Philippians 4:13, Deuteronomy 30:14, Romans 10:8.


What's the problem with that, haz? Please explain?

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Hi dragonfly,

Regarding forgiveness, my point about Epi's gospel is he preaches condemnation/death for any believers who are not living a perfect lifestyle continually. The soul that sins, dies. This contradicts forgiveness 7x70.

And remember we define sin differently. You see it as imperfect behavior.
It's also described as transgression of the law (1John 3:4).
But we are not under the law of righteousness (10 commandments), so we can't be judged/accused of it's transgression/sin.
All unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17). But we are righteous (imputed) in Christ. So we can't be judged/accused of sin here.
The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus (John 6:29). Christians believe on Jesus, hence no sin.


You mentioned 'imparted' righteousness. This is Seventh Day Adventist doctrine. You are aware of this?

You claim that I reject the view that Christians should do things differently as a natural response to their relationship with God.
This is incorrect. Many here, myself included, know of the changes God has made in our lives so that our lifestyles have changed/improved for the better. Each persons walk will vary. Some have no improvement (the thief on the cross), others a little and others much. BUT, this has no bearing on their salvation as it's determined by believing on Jesus.

Often scriptures speak of how we should encourage each other in the faith. Unfortunately, when I came to this forum some weeks ago I found Epi trying to undermine the faith of others here with his 'obfuscated' claims that believers were believing in fantasy and that they should have a perfect lifestyle to prove it or else their unsaved.

To answer your question regarding that example of an abusive husband, when someone becomes a Christian, Jesus is the overseer/Bishop of their soul. God is working in their lives, at whatever level they may be able/willing to grow. Let Him do it. And when some do wrong God will discipline them. They are not going to profit by it.

Instead of preaching condemnation/death if one is not living a perfect lifestyle, we should be encouraging each other in the faith of Christ.

I too have an (real life) example.
A diligent Seventh day Adventist I know is abusive towards his wife and children over many years. This man has some undiagnosed issues and likewise now some of his adult children who have learned his aggressive/abusive behavior. Being a Seventh Day Adventist he believes in obedience to the 10 commandments as proof of abiding in Christ. His daughter (my ex-wife) however, left the Adventists and became a non-denominational Christian, believing on Jesus. Unfortunately she likewise is aggressive/abusive and destroyed our marriage.

Does my ex-wife differ from the thief on the cross when they both believe on Jesus?

Hi haz,

So am I to gather that you are so traumatised by your experience of Seventh Day Adventism, that you find it impossible to look at scripture through unbiased eyes?

I have not seen one place where you asked Episkopos about forgiveness. You have read more into his post than was there, and have attacked him repeatedly without understanding what he was saying.

The fact is.... none of us are thieves dying on a cross beside Christ... and therefore, the outworking of our salvation is not optional.

When I expressed the changed life of the man who stopped beating his wife as, 'the life of Christ working in him (grace) - his faith, in action', I was looking for you to say that you can find no objection to a person demonstrating the life of Christ in their flesh.

Why didn't you say that?

Do you object?

Or is it that you've never actually seen a life which has been transformed by the power of Christ's life?

Listen! One last thing - the Greek word for 'salvation' also means 'health and wholeness'. There is a wealth of healing in God.

haz said:

Hi dragonfly,

You obsess over standards of perfection for us in this imperfect physical state and promote Epi’s gospel of judgement/condemnation/death.

But, what are God’s standards? 1John 3:23
Believe on Jesus and Love one another.
In loving one another we keep His commandments stated above (1John 5:2)

We forgive 7x70 (instead of judging righteousness by works of the law resulting in condemnation/death).
We share the gospel of grace to the unsaved and encourage one another in the faith.
And yes, our lifestyles improve also.

It's interesting that Jesus said we should forgive 7x70 and yet you claim that God will not forgive His children 7x70 for an imperfect liefstyle. It's seems like your saying that we are more forgiving than God is.

You quoted Heb 10 for my attention. I likewise bring it to you, Epi and Co. for your attention.
Heb 10:26-
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

As you and Epi have heard the gospel of Christ you have a choice. Believe that you have been sanctified by Christ’s one offering (Heb 10:10) or reject it (believing that you have to see perfection in the flesh i.e self-righteous works, Gal 3:3), which is sin.

Heb 10:26 states, if you sin (self-righteousness by works, which is unbelief) willfully after having the knowledge of the truth (gospel of Christ)…..you know the rest. This is counting the blood of the covenant by which we he was sanctified a common thing and insulted the Spirit of grace.

As Axehead said, "It takes real living faith to stay in relationship with Jesus Christ and bless and praise Him in the midst of trials and trbulations. Real faith abides in Christ..."
Sadly for some the flesh takes over, and having started in the Spirit they seek to be perfected by the flesh such as described in Gal 3:3.

Son of Man quoted:
1 Corinthians 3
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Yes, we are the temple of God.
BUT, if you rebuild that which you destroyed you make yourself a transgressor (Gal 2:18)
This is fornication. This is defiling the temple of God.

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We are not building the temple through sin and forgiveness...sin and forgiveness. Rebuilding what we destroyed is precisely like a dog returning to it's vomit. It is continuing in the power of the flesh when we have been offered grace to walk in the Spirit.

No amount of twisting the scriptures can make sin OK...and walking in the power of the Spirit evil.

We have those who call evil good and good evil.

Sin is not OK!

And walking in the power of the Spirit is good!

Is this so difficult to understand?

brother dave said:

i must get to my work, but i find your answer a bit confusing in light of clear scripture! hope you can better define what you mean by "ASKING GOD OFTEN FOR HIS SPIRIT" seems very odd for a true believer?

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You should try it sometime Dave. It is one thing that is clearly evident in another.
PS, there is no "limit" on asking Him for a lot of what you want that He Promises. In fact, your desire for His Spirit will 'cause' you to ask more than once. If you really want to be filled with His Holy Spirit, you won't stop asking for it, EVER

(Luk 11:13)

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Excellent message Son of Man, Episkopos, Axehead, Dragonfly and Prentis.

Your words in the face of the devil's anger and hatred against you and your message are as a rain in the mid-summer heat.

I know that the enemy isn't interested in these things which is why they struggle so fervently against the Lord and His annointed as you share the Gospel.
But you never know who else may be reading your words and presentation of the Gospel.
It means a lot to us as we witness your evangelizing and teaching and ministering the Word of God here in Truth, even sustained by the Holy Spirit in the face of the fiery darts of the sinners in their false accusations and teachings of satan, and yet you Sons of God are coming through unscathed with their abuse against you.
It reminds me of when Stephen spoke truth to the jews, who then stoned Him to death, that is when Christ Himself Stood in the Heavens. It is the only time you read of Him standing, is when His children suffer for His Name.
You are Blessed Men of God. I salute you and Stand with you. Even as Jesus stands for you in your message of Him.

Whitestone

you are going to get your feelings hurt again whitestone! you know you cant play with the big kids! and maybe you could define what holiness is? and what walking in the Spirit is? i bet you dont have a clue!


and epi did you see those UFOs? i bet you have told people you have before!


and if you guys believe in ellen g white and her nonsense, why dont you come out in the open with it?

Son of Man said:

Holiness is Following, Imitating, Christ's example as well as following all of His teachings. Including asking God often for His Spirit to replace ours.
Anything else you like to know?





.

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if you would like to continue there "son of man"? you were telling me how you walked in the spirit by asking your god to "OFTEN REPLACE" your spirit for his? and how you acted like Jesus? you mean you have his holiness because you keep his teachings? that dont make sense?

healed anyone or raised the dead lately? i bet epi will say he has!

epi, is your god that came and talked to you ,the same one that talked to ellen g white? i bet it is!

haz said:

Hi dragonfly,

You obsess over standards of perfection for us in this imperfect physical state and promote Epi’s gospel of judgement/condemnation/death.

But, what are God’s standards? 1John 3:23
Believe on Jesus and Love one another.
In loving one another we keep His commandments stated above (1John 5:2)

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Hi Haz,

Thanks for engaging me in real conversation.
You talk about loving people and believing Jesus but what about loving God? How do we love God, Haz?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The only way that anyone can love the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves is to lay down their fleshly, self-centered life.

When you come to Jesus Christ with all your heart, the Spirit of God leads you to put to death the nature of Satan which is the sins of the flesh. The Lord perfects (matures) you in love. As you decrease (deny self, come into agreement and unity with the Spirit of God), Christ will increase in you, and you will progressively and increasingly love God and your neighbor as Jesus has loved you. This love delivers us from the judgment of God’s law as Jesus leads us to fulfill the law by becoming doers of the Word.

If your heart is captured by a carnal doctrine which does not conform you to godliness, you will never lay down your selfish life in the flesh. When you continue to love the flesh nature, you are still loving the nature of Satan. Therefore, you cannot be perfected in love and escape the bondage of the powers of darkness because they still have ground. The powers of darkness attach themselves to the sins of the flesh which break God’s laws. If Jesus does not control your life through the Spirit, you are walking in a form of godliness and Jesus is not really Lord of your life.

This is the reason there is very little understanding in the church today about the powers of darkness. This is the reason church members have been in such despair, confusion and living such totally defeated lives.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The Law cannot be fulfilled in anyone who does not love the Lord more than he loves the sins of the flesh. This is the reason we must love the Lord with all our hearts.

If anyone is not led by the Spirit of God to overcome the flesh and be perfected in love, he is being destroyed by the powers of darkness because he is a lawbreaker (transgressor) and has no hedge of protection from God.

Destruction and death are working in every man who walks after the flesh.

Axehead

Axehead said:

Hi Haz,

Thanks for engaging me in real conversation.
You talk about loving people and believing Jesus but what about loving God? How do we love God, Haz?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The only way that anyone can love the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves is to lay down their fleshly, self-centered life.

When you come to Jesus Christ with all your heart, the Spirit of God leads you to put to death the nature of Satan which is the sins of the flesh. The Lord perfects (matures) you in love. As you decrease (deny self, come into agreement and unity with the Spirit of God), Christ will increase in you, and you will progressively and increasingly love God and your neighbor as Jesus has loved you. This love delivers us from the judgment of God’s law as Jesus leads us to fulfill the law by becoming doers of the Word.

If your heart is captured by a carnal doctrine which does not conform you to godliness, you will never lay down your selfish life in the flesh. When you continue to love the flesh nature, you are still loving the nature of Satan. Therefore, you cannot be perfected in love and escape the bondage of the powers of darkness because they still have ground. The powers of darkness attach themselves to the sins of the flesh which break God’s laws. If Jesus does not control your life through the Spirit, you are walking in a form of godliness and Jesus is not really Lord of your life.

This is the reason there is very little understanding in the church today about the powers of darkness. This is the reason church members have been in such despair, confusion and living such totally defeated lives.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The Law cannot be fulfilled in anyone who does not love the Lord more than he loves the sins of the flesh. This is the reason we must love the Lord with all our hearts.

If anyone is not led by the Spirit of God to overcome the flesh and be perfected in love, he is being destroyed by the powers of darkness because he is a lawbreaker (transgressor) and has no hedge of protection from God.

Destruction and death are working in every man who walks after the flesh.

Axehead

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axehead, could you please describe what the bible means by "walking in the Spirit" or by the Spirit? and please define what you understand the word "flesh" to mean? very important because it seems that you guys have little understanding of these terms!

one more question! are you now or have you ever been in the "seventh-day adventist" church or held its teachings at any time?

brother dave said:

axehead, could you please describe what the bible means by "walking in the Spirit" or by the Spirit? and please define what you understand the word "flesh" to mean? very important because it seems that you guys have little understanding of these terms!

one more question! are you now or have you ever been in the "seventh-day adventist" church or held its teachings at any time?

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Hi Dave,

Will do my best to explain what I mean. Seventh Day Adventist are Sabbatarians and I am not a Mosaic Law keeper. I am a born-again Spirit-filled Christian. Ok, will work on your question but I may not get to it today. I have some other things that need tending to.

Axehead

Axehead said:

Hi Dave,

Will do my best to explain what I mean. Seventh Day Adventist are Sabbatarians and I am not a Mosaic Law keeper. I am a born-again Spirit-filled Christian. Ok, will work on your question but I may not get to it today. I have some other things that need tending to.

Axehead

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very good! and you seem to be the only one,in your group, that answers to God in conscience!
i hope my confidence in you will be rewarded? these are easy questions for those who claim power over the flesh? its seems very odd that those who continue to boast in there spiritual walk, could not give a quick answer to such simple questions? <_<



1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hey there Dave,

Can you also give me your definitions for "flesh" and "walking in the Spirit?"

Thanks,
Axe

dragonfly said:

Hi haz,

So am I to gather that you are so traumatised by your experience of Seventh Day Adventism, that you find it impossible to look at scripture through unbiased eyes?

I have not seen one place where you asked Episkopos about forgiveness. You have read more into his post than was there, and have attacked him repeatedly without understanding what he was saying.

The fact is.... none of us are thieves dying on a cross beside Christ... and therefore, the outworking of our salvation is not optional.

When I expressed the changed life of the man who stopped beating his wife as, 'the life of Christ working in him (grace) - his faith, in action', I was looking for you to say that you can find no objection to a person demonstrating the life of Christ in their flesh.

Why didn't you say that?

Do you object?

Or is it that you've never actually seen a life which has been transformed by the power of Christ's life?

Listen! One last thing - the Greek word for 'salvation' also means 'health and wholeness'. There is a wealth of healing in God.

Click to expand...

Hi dragonfly,

Quite a strong response you gave about my Seventh Day Adventist example. Please correct me if I'm reading too much into your response but are you, or were you ever an Adventist?

As for the accusation of looking at scriptures with biased eyes, well, we each see each other as being guilty of this. But, there have been some attempts at trying to find some common ground.
And no, I'm not traumatised by my Adventist experience. God worked through these trials in my life to develop perserverance (James 1:2-4) ). I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me.

So, I understand that you claim that confessing Jesus on your death bed has the advantage of not having to prove yourself with an outworking of our salvation. If that were true then the thief on the cross was truly blessed in obtaining deathbed salvation whilst those who live on have to prove themselves with a perfect lifestyle.
One is saved by grace on their deathbed with no outworking of salvation whilst for another it's works of perfect lifestyle for the remaining years of their life. Here Rom 11:6 comes to mind.

Regarding your example of the abusive husband, I did respond stating that improvement in lifestyle can happen with Christ. Where we differ is that you demand that perfection is required as proof of salvation whereas I don't make any claims beyond the salvation evidenced by that thief on the cross.

My ex-wife believes on Jesus but her lifestyle suggests she is a very immature Christian. Christians will not profit from doing wrong, but we should not be telling/judging them that they are unsaved because of their imperfect lifestyle. Instead we should be encouraging each other in the faith. God works in each Christian at whatever stage their at to build them up. To undermine that by telling others they are unsaved because of their imperfect lifestyle seems more like the gospel of works of self-righteousness.

BTW, I have seen lives transformed in Christ. And that without the gospel of condemnation/death for imperfect lifestyle.

Thanks for sharing that the Greek word for salvation means 'health and wholeness'. Scripture confirms that for us too.

Axehead said:

Hey there Dave,

Can you also give me your definitions for "flesh" and "walking in the Spirit?"

Thanks,
Axe

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gee? axehead? you guys seem to use these terms,to advance some unclear doctrine! you refuse to lay out in any honest way what you believe? You and your friends use these terms over and over and have no clue what they really mean! i think i would like to have you or any of your so-called "bible teacher" friends, answer? before you repeat back to me, what i teach to you!

i have been gentle with you guys, and have sought to find common ground on issues. If i find you guys are not just ignorant believers? but are a group that seeks to cause harm to Gods people? You and your friends will be looking for a new forum! a place were i am not! for i will at every post declare your evil to all! so please! if you have any sincere faith? its time now to make that known!

2Pe 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked

Axehead said:

Hi Haz,

Thanks for engaging me in real conversation.
You talk about loving people and believing Jesus but what about loving God? How do we love God, Haz?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The only way that anyone can love the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves is to lay down their fleshly, self-centered life.

When you come to Jesus Christ with all your heart, the Spirit of God leads you to put to death the nature of Satan which is the sins of the flesh. The Lord perfects (matures) you in love. As you decrease (deny self, come into agreement and unity with the Spirit of God), Christ will increase in you, and you will progressively and increasingly love God and your neighbor as Jesus has loved you. This love delivers us from the judgment of God’s law as Jesus leads us to fulfill the law by becoming doers of the Word.

If your heart is captured by a carnal doctrine which does not conform you to godliness, you will never lay down your selfish life in the flesh. When you continue to love the flesh nature, you are still loving the nature of Satan. Therefore, you cannot be perfected in love and escape the bondage of the powers of darkness because they still have ground. The powers of darkness attach themselves to the sins of the flesh which break God’s laws. If Jesus does not control your life through the Spirit, you are walking in a form of godliness and Jesus is not really Lord of your life.

This is the reason there is very little understanding in the church today about the powers of darkness. This is the reason church members have been in such despair, confusion and living such totally defeated lives.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The Law cannot be fulfilled in anyone who does not love the Lord more than he loves the sins of the flesh. This is the reason we must love the Lord with all our hearts.

If anyone is not led by the Spirit of God to overcome the flesh and be perfected in love, he is being destroyed by the powers of darkness because he is a lawbreaker (transgressor) and has no hedge of protection from God.

Destruction and death are working in every man who walks after the flesh.

Axehead

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Hii Axehead,

I'm slowly catching up in my replies. I note that Epi thought I was ignoring him even. I hope he understands now that I wasn't.
I happen to have some time today being unable to work due to a bad cold.

True,...walking according to the flesh leads to destruction/death. And scripture testifies of this regarding those who judge righteousness by works of the law (Rom 9:32). These are not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

For those in Christ, the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10) having been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). Why resurrect it? That's being carnal/walking according to the flesh. We are now a new spiritual creation in spiritual relationship with God.

So why would you judge righteousness by whether we live a perfect physical lifestyle?
Our physical lifestyle often does improve being in Christ, but that's not what determines our righteousness. The saved thief on the cross dispels that myth of perfect physical lifestyle being necessary.

Instead it's now a perfect spiritual obedience out of love for our God. And our inner man (Christ, Rom 7:22) delights after the spiritual law (Rom 7:14).
Which means we don't turn to spiritual fornication by judging righteousness by works of a perfect physical lifestyle (self-righteousness).
In Christ we have been made righteous, sanctified, holy, perfected. Believe God's promise. This is loving God with all your heart/soul/mind.

From Dave:
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very good! and you seem to be the only one,in your group, that answers to God in conscience!

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You have no way of judging that, just like no one can judge your conscience. It is plain to all, however that your words are very abrasive and abusive.

I hope my confidence in you will be rewarded? these are easy questions for those who claim power over the flesh? its seems very odd that those who continue to boast in there spiritual walk, could not give a quick answer to such simple questions?

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First of all, please don't try to flatter me. I am not moved by flatter. It usually is a ploy to gain someone's confidence so that they can be taken advantage of. Which you did in your next post, below where you slam me for asking the same thing of you that you asked of me. No, I don't need you to tell me what "walking in the Spirit" is all about. As far as my "group", I can recognize in someone's consistent posts whether they know the things of the Spirit or not. I have not recognized this with you. I have sensed a different spirit.

brother dave said:

gee? axehead? you guys seem to use these terms,to advance some unclear doctrine!

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If you read my posts in all the threads I have been in (and especially this one), my doctrine is clear. And in this very long thread on the "Gospel of Grace" you should have picked up by now what we are talking about. You have been too busy thinking about how to slam others, apparently because what they say does not agree with your lifestyle.

you refuse to lay out in any honest way what you believe?

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You may be able to read, but apparently you cannot understand or will not. Other people have jumped in and seem to understand easily what is being talked about.

You and your friends use these terms over and over and have no clue what they really mean!

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You mean, you don't understand. Please get it right. We use these words because we DO UNDERSTAND them.

I think i would like to have you or any of your so-called "bible teacher" friends, answer? before you repeat back to me, what i teach to you!

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I have no problem with that at all. If you knew what the "flesh" was and what "walking in the Spirit" was all about, then somewhere in these 18 pages of this thread you would have conveyed that to us by now, but you did not so I can only assume you don' t know. So, you rant and rave at that which you do not understand.

i have been gentle with you guys, and have sought to find common ground on issues.

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No you have not, on both counts. You have not been gentle and you have not sought to find common ground. You use the Word of God like a sledge hammer on brothers but it doesn't work.

If i find you guys are not just ignorant believers? but are a group that seeks to cause harm to Gods people? You and your friends will be looking for a new forum! a place were i am not! for i will at every post declare your evil to all! so please! if you have any sincere faith? its time now to make that known!

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Just like you have made known your sincere faith?

I had some hope you were going to stop ranting and start to engage in civil, kind conversation, but I was wrong. I think you are ending this conversation before it really gets off the ground because I don't take too kindly to intimidation and threats and your constant display of an abusive spirit of anger is not something I am going to subject myself to. I recommend the same thing for others. Your attitude is just not conducive to a give and take conversation and. I don't think anyone is going anywhere. We like it here and some moderators have even agreed with us.

2Pe 2:5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

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I thought you had a problem with Preachers of Righteousness.

2 Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;

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Amen to Peter saying that if we live ungodly we will be destroyed.

You seem to have a habit of ignoring scriptures that complete how we are to walk.
Read the rest of 2 Peter. I mean, take your time and read it and pray over it.


2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness...

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; (CEASE FROM SIN) beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Did you see 2 Peter 2:14? Peter expects people to cease from sin. You don't have a problem with Peter but you do with the preachers of righteousness and holiness in this thread.

I would be more than happy to engage you again in conversation if you change your attitude and show me that you are willing to listen to the WHOLE COUNSEL of GOD and not just select verses that justify your abuse of others. Selected verses will only give you a form of godliness.

In the meantime,

Axehead

Axehead : a very simple question! yet you nor any of your friends can answer?


you speak of the whole counsel of God? yet you do not understand the basics?

how about a testimony? this is not too hard for you is it? You dont need any biblical understanding to give your testimony! what church have you been with? what teachers have you studied? these are common things in the Church and there cannot be a honest reason for keeping such things hidden!

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Phm 1:6

That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Also !it is not a evil thing to attempt to draw out of a beleiver the good that Christ put in them! however! It is evil to attempt to destroy or harm the work of Christ in His people!

2Co 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.