Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And that is why Israel buil;t the walls- to control who enters into their land.
False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Actually it is not the anger of God, but the love of God to prepare His covenant people to receive Messiah as a nation! And that will happen in the end of the tribulation.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Ok, I'll buy that. So some people need more encouragement to surrender to the Lord Yeshua than others do. The Lord wants to save everybody...but sometimes it takes war to get people to look for the Lord. So it is indeed an act of mercy as you say.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not angry, as that time was an opportunity for them to turn around. Being angry would have meant wiped off the face of the earth, so to speak, then, and not 500 years later.
When Moses was alive, God's anger seemed to always want them dead. They did not get it then either. They were given 40 years then, as a time to get rid of the majority who came out of Egypt.
Hmm... I would submit, Ronald, that God's righteous anger is part of His love... is one manifestation of His love. And that has happened many, many, many times from the Fall until even now... and will until Christ returns.
Grace and peace to you.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Mark 13:24-27 version is ONLY about Christ's gathering of the saints 'from the earth'. Surely you can read that, "from the uttermost part of the earth" and understand that means a gathering from the earth only.
But the Matthew 24:29-31 version is about His gathering the saints from Heaven, i.e., about the resurrection of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him like Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-16.
The Mark 13 version ONLY is about what many call a 'rapture', but Apostle Paul called it "caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17.
Thus what Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse is the SAME 2 gathering events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
Like Jesus showed in His parable of the tares of the field, the HARVEST is the day of His coming to separate the "tares" from His wheat. That's what a "sharp sickle" is used for, a tool for harvesting wheat and tares (see Matt.13).
The ONLY ones in Christ gathered from heaven on the day of His return are the "asleep" saints that Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that will FIRST be RESURRECTED, and then Jesus brings them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). Do you need me to show you those verses?
And surely you understand that the future RESURRECTION doesn't happen until the LAST DAY of this world, like Jesus said? (John 6:40).
If I don't understand, then how is it that you can't grasp that above Revelation 5:9 verse is for the time AFTER Jesus has returned?
And who has mesmerized you into thinking Christ sending His angels to gather His saints is NOT about the day of His future return?? His angels doing that is simply a detail in one place in Scripture (His Olivet discourse) that is simply not mentioned in others (like 1 Thess.4). Your reasoning is like you can't say it's Jesus coming unless He leads His pack of angels ahead of them.
Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV
2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Matt 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
KJV
Matt 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Do you use an online Concordance when you read? Like Blueletterbible.org or something?
Because the way I read it, the Rapture isnt after the GT. And there's lot's of scriptures to back it up.
I dunno, I just wonder why all your posts are worded in a seemingly discouraging tone that I think you dont need. Are you just wanting to be right? Or do you seek to guide misguided christians into the truth? IOW, what is your purpose in talking about when the rapture is so much?
The Light
Well-Known Member
The dead in Christ rise first. The barley harvest. No second coming reference.
Yes, this is the rapture. The secret pretribulation rapture. The wheat harvest. The previously raptured dead return with the Lord and we meet them in the air. No one but those looking for Him will see Him.
Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Matthew 24 tells us that the second rapture, THE SECOND COMING occurs at the 6th seal. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION..........and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. However He remains in the clouds and all return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb...................BEFORE Armageddon.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Correct.
"A" rapture happens. The Church is already in heaven........before the tribulation. This second rapture at the sixth seal occurs BEFORE the wrath of God. We see the second coming in Revelation 14. It occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
The Church is raptured before the tribulation. The Lord Himself comes.
The second rapture occurs at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
The Jesus returns for Armageddon with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath. Then the Second Advent occurs as Jesus set His feet on the mount of Olives at the 7th trumpet..........when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You've yet to prove that false witness of yours.
As a matter of fact, I don't see you post that much actual Bible Scripture at all! and when you do, you don't even know how to quote it properly!
So like I said, go ahead, show me... where I'm wrong in Scripture in my posts you falsely make your claim about. I challenge you.
Uh, where does it say in Rev.4 and 5 there was a PRE TRIB RAPTURE?
Did you NOT know that the rewards like the crowns given by Christ are ONLY handed out at His coming?
2 Tim 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
KJV
1 Peter 5:4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
KJV
7th Trumpet Timing When Jesus Comes:
Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV
If the crown reward is not given until the day Jesus returns, then what TIMING does that mean John was being shown in those Revelation 4 and Revelation 5 Chapters?
Those chapters are a vision of AFTER... Christ had already returned! And BOTH Chapters 4 & 5 are of the SAME vision timing!
The following is ALL... for AFTER Jesus has returned in the future...
Rev 5:9-13
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Do you NOT see that "and hast redeemed us to God" phrase showing that Christ had already returned at that point?
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
Are we right now, already made those "kings and priests". NO! not yet! That ONLY will happen for Christ's Faithful when He returns!
(I really do feel sorry for brethren that have not studied enough of their Bible, including the Old Testament prophets, in order to recognize the timelines in God's written Word. And the Book of Revelation is one of the strongest examples of fast moving timelines. A timeline change can happen even within a single verse, so the Bible student must really be on their toes. And the Bible student who has not first understood this type of literature that occurs ONLY in God's written Word, they can easily be fooled by those timelines, which is what Apostle Paul was talking about with 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.)
Christ said in Revelation 16:15 that He comes "as a thief".
That is His reference to the "day of the Lord" idea of the Old Testament prophets, which both Apostles Peter and Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3:10 about the last day of this present world.
The OT prophets, and Apostle Paul, taught how the deceived will suffer "sudden destruction" on that "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night".
Your own Pre-trib Rapture preachers even like to use that "as a thief in the night" metaphor about the day of Christ's coming! But they simple try to push the wrong... time for Christ's return to gather His Church. There is ONLY one time of return by Jesus, and that is "Immediately after the tribulation..." like He said in Matthew 24:29-31. And that will be the "day of the Lord".
ON... that "day of the Lord" is when Jesus will gather His saints, and punish the wicked on earth, and begin His separation of His sheep from the goats. And the Zechariah 14 Scriptures reveals where He and His saints are going to on that same day.
And like Jesus showed in Matthew 13, the harvest time is WHEN He will gather BOTH the tares, and His wheat (saints).
Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
What you say even goes directly... opposite of what Jesus said above. The "tares" are gathered FIRST, and then His Righteous will shine forth in His future Kingdom!
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
The Light
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This is also incorrect.
Paul is talking about the rapture of the Church in 1 Thes 4. The Lord HIMSELF comes, at the Trump of God or the voice of God.
Jesus in the Olivet discourse is not talking about the rapture of the Church, He is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth. The Lord remains in the clouds at this gathering and SENDS HIS ANGELS. This occurs at the Last Trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
This is also incorrect.
Here we see a sickle being used to harvest grapes at the fall fruit harvest.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
No. I don't need the verses.
The Lord comes for the spring barley harvest which will be the dead in Christ. Jesus will return for the ALIVE THE REMAIN............in other the alive don't precede the dead...........and the alive remain until the summer wheat harvest.
1 Thes 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Sure. But do you understand when that last day occurs in Revelation? What chapter?
I understand that. How is it that you don't understand that He has returned before the seals are opened.......which is before the tribulation.
The Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
However, in 1 Thes 4, the Lord Himself comes for His bride. Two different events.
You are posting verses about two separate events.
The Second Advent occurs when Jesus returns in the clouds with the armies of heaven for Armageddon and then to set up His kingdom.
This happens after the marriage supper of the Lamb. The great multitude which are those raptured before the tribulation and also those raptured before the wrath of God return with Jesus shown here.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
Some of the verses you posted have to do with the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord...........but He remains in the clouds.
ewq1938
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The church is raptured AFTER the trib (GT), not before it. Paul and Christ both teach this. Never is there a coming of Christ or a rapture before the trib.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nope! that is you ADDING... to God's Word.
Satan is NOT bound until the day of Jesus' future return, as shown in Revelation 20...
Rev 20:1-4
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV
Verse 4 reveals what timing... Satan is put in those chains and locked in his pit prison.
That rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 is NOT... Lord Jesus Christ.
That rider on the 1st Seal represents the coming Antichrist!
The reason you don't understand that is because those charlatans you listen to have not taught you that the Antichrist comes first to PLAY Jesus Christ.
That false one comes first working great signs and wonders and miracles to deceive the whole world, as written!
Therefore, that 1st Seal rider of Rev.6 TRIES to mimic Jesus coming on a white horse of Rev.19.
But that ain't... Jesus on that 1st Seal.
Per Rev.19 Jesus Christ comes having MANY crowns, and wielding a sword, not a bow of cheap fabric (toxon per the Greek of Rev.6:2).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Jesus did cast out devils, He also gave power for His disciples to do that, including those in Christ today. So don't you get it? The casting out devils by His Church is STILL GOING ON TODAY!
And of what Jesus showed about His coming Kingdom, that's easy, it is not yet today physically here on earth, but begins on the day of His future return!
Christ's Kingdom is here today ONLY IN SPIRIT through His Church.
So do you think today's burning of Churches by the wicked would happen if Christ's Kingdom were already here literally? I mean, if someone wants to believe man evolved from a monkey, I guess they can believe that too.
You falsely claim I am in spiritual captivity to sin??!? And you think you are free while you listen to charlatans who push a FALSE Pre-trib Rapture lie?
I myself, and others here, have already shown you the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Lord Jesus shows His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation. So why don't you believe HIM?
Nope! Satan is NOT in chains locked in the pit yet today. I've already shown how that is lie, because the Rev.20:1-4 Scripture proves what I say.
What you don't understand is that Jesus came to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe, and BY THAT He defeated the devil and death for us. HOWEVER... haven't you wondered WHY Satan's wicked servants are still allowed to OPERATE here on earth today? And Apostle Peter even gave the Church the following warning, which is still in effect for the Church today...
1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV
Does that mean Satan today is STILL walking around, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour?? Yeah! So much for you theory from charlatans that Satan is already bound in the pit. Not yet he ain't. But Jesus gave His servants power over the enemy, like He said in Luke 10, and we are supposed to cast him and his demons away from us in Christ's Name!
So what your false belief that Satan is already in chains in the pit means, is that you are NOT... doing what Christ told us to do with casting out those devils away from you and your family in His Name.
You know what that above statement is called? It's an oxymoron, which means one phrase cancels out the other until absolutely nothing said is the result.
There is only one time written in God's Word when Satan will be 'bound' in chains in his pit prison, and that is in the Revelation 20 chapter with the day of Christ's future return. Yet Satan is still in charge over that bottomless pit, and still today he can come and go as he pleases. That... is what Peter meant that Satan "walketh about" still today.
It's actually the other way around, you try to force the Scripture to say something besides what is written. Imagine if you did something like in the medical field?
I'm simply sticking to the Bible Scripture as written. So it's you that doesn't get... IT (meaning The Word of God as written).
Only on the day of Christ's future coming will Satan be bound in his pit prison in chains, as written.................. in Revelation 20!
The Light
Well-Known Member
Oh, I can show you, that's not a problem. Getting you to understand your error is another matter.
Which totally proves my point. Jesus has returned. Is it the Second Coming where all eyes see the coming of the Lord and He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? No.
Is it the Second Advent where Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives? No.
It is the rapture of the Church..............pre trib.
You are proving my point. Jesus has returned for the Church, before the tribulation.
This is the Second Advent when Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth. It has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church, nor is it the Second Coming which occurs at the 6th seal.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
This is what Davy says and understands. This is not what the Word says.
You are correct that the crowns prove that Jesus has returned. But He returns BEFORE the hour of testing.
Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Exactly proving my point. He returns for His bride before the tribulation and hour of testing. He opens a door the no man can open or shut.
I feel sorry for those that do not understand that He is coming in an hour that they think not.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I don't have a pre trib teacher. I just read the Word. Most of the teachers I've heard haven't figured out the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.
I can prove what you are saying is wrong.......using the Bible. But can I get you to understand? That is the problem.
So post scripture that says that the tares are gathered first. Obviously this is correct. But when does this event happen? Now let's look at these verses in Rev 14
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Note that in this rapture event, the righteous are gathered first. So this event, which is the gathering from heaven and earth when the righteous are gathered first is NOT the same event as the verses that you posted.
Further, one MAJOR error you have is thinking that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the end. This is totally and completely incorrect.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Looks like you are trying to force... that key into a hole that won't fit.
The Revelation 20 Scripture is we are shown WHEN Satan will be bound, and locked in his pit prison. And it is shown at the timing of the "first resurrection". Well when is the time of the "first resurrection" of Christ's saints? EASY! On the day of Christ's future coming!
The doctrine of men you are trying to push about Satan already being bound comes from a BAD INTERPRETATION of what Jesus said just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified...
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
A bunch of country preachers read that last phrase in red, and made up a theory on it, like Satan was then bound in chains and cast to the pit at the time of Christ's crucifixion.
But they forgot to read that first phrase of, "Now is the judgment of this world", which obviously HAS NOT YET HAPPENED today, and will not until Jesus returns in the future.
And Lo and behold, look what else Jesus said after that, which those country preachers forgot to read!...
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV
Satan cast out? Satan is coming "Hereafter", meaning after Christ's crucifixion? Yes, that is exactly what Jesus was warning them, and us. That casting out is about the future Rev.12:7-9 war in heaven when Satan and his angels will be cast down to our earth for the END, which will involve the time of "great tribulation"! That's the 'casting out' that Jesus was preaching, which at the end of the tribulation will the time of His judgment upon this world.
Until then, Satan is still today... roaming around like a lion, among his servants here on earth that worship him, seeking whom he may devour. His minions are still here working on earth too, so cast them away from you in the Name of Jesus Christ.
The rest of your post is just mere speculation.
Keraz
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People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, pre, mid, post, or anytime; which shows up the lack of Biblical support and the inability of rapture believers to agree on practically any aspect of that theory.
Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they unconsciously await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; - protection during the terrible times ahead. Isaiah 41:18, Psalms 91; Isaiah 43:2, 2 Peter 2:9, +
And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.
Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they unconsciously await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; - protection during the terrible times ahead. Isaiah 41:18, Psalms 91; Isaiah 43:2, 2 Peter 2:9, +
And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.
The Light
Well-Known Member
There is not a single verse that says that the Church is raptured after the tribulation.
The gathering from heaven and earth happens after the tribulation, but that is the Church being gathered from heaven and the tribulation saints are gathered from the earth. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the gathering from the earth.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The rapture to heaven idea comes from the Bible.
Lots of nice quotes. Now go back and check the context as these are all out of context.
Rev 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
TribulationSigns
Active Member
False accusation. You have not refuted me with a single verse that proved that I have added to God's Word.
Simple explanation if you have spiritual understanding according to Luke 11:20-22:
If Satan was not bound since the Cross, we can't be saved. Selah.
Of course, it is a wrong interpreation.
The angel (messenger) is Jesus Christ. He had the authority (key) to restrain Satan, signifies a bottomless pit, with great chain because Satan is a strong man, please read Luke 11:20-22 over and over again to get into your thick carnal mind.
Yes, according to Gospel.
Not so!
I don't listen to any "charlatans". I read the Bible itself. To claim that the white horse need to be antichrist is man-made fantasy per their pre-millennial false doctrine.
Huh? Where does it says in Scripture exactly? No where did God sees the beast as white horse!
LOL. Actually, it is the SAME Jesus Christ. SAME white horse! Christ went out as a white horse conquering and TO CONQUER through His church by spoiling (saving) His people. Not "temporary conquer" of antichrist. And in Revelation 19, Christ came with the Saints whom he spoiled! There won't be two white horse, nor Revelation 6 states the antichrist will come "LIKE" a white horse. No, God said it is the white horse identified with Christ!
Yep!
Silly you. Jesus established his kingdom at the Cross with one crown. In the end, He ended up getting MANY crowns because His saints gave their crowns to him (Revelation 4:10). That is why Christ is the King of kings! Haven't you read the Scripture?
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