ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

Born_Again · Mar 6, 2016

ATP said:
The evidence is so overwhelming, that it breaks my heart to see a believer think otherwise..

Now I am at an impasse. Why? Because you shot a bunch of verses with no exegesis. So, do I look every single one of those up and see if they are interpreted correctly or do I let this go and agree to disagree..... Really, all your verse pushing did nothing. Unless you explain (as I asked you to do in the first place) then there's no point. It reminds me of arguing with a catholic. They post a verse, bend it how they want and use the word "clearly" as an end all be all statement. Unless you care to explain each verse, its entirely possible I'm going to ignore you and assume you don't really know. C'mon ATP, I really expected better out of you. You kinda let me down on this one.

Phoneman777 · Mar 6, 2016

ATP said:
The term "lost" actually describes nonbelievers who haven't come to salvation yet.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 18:8-9 NIV Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

John is referring to progressive sanctification...

Prov 20:9 NIV Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”?

1 John 1:8-10 NIV If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Whosoever is born of God,.... In a figurative and spiritual sense; who are regenerated, or born from above; who are quickened by the grace of God, and have Christ formed in them; who are made partakers of the divine nature, and new creatures in Christ; which spiritual birth is not owing to men, to the power and will of men, but to the grace of God; and is sometimes ascribed to the Father, who of his own will and abundant mercy begets souls again to a lively hope, and saves them by the washing of regeneration; and sometimes to Christ, who quickens whom he will, whose grace is implanted, and image stamped in it, and by whose resurrection from the dead men are begotten again; and chiefly, to the Spirit of God, who is the author of regeneration, and of the whole of sanctification: and such as are born of him are alive through him, the spirit of life entering into them, and live to God and upon Christ, and breathe after divine and spiritual things, and have their senses to discern them; they see, hear, feel, taste, and savour them; and desire the sincere milk of the word, for their nourishment and growth; and have every grace implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love: and of every such an one it is said, he

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary - 9. Whosoever is born of God—literally, "Everyone that is begotten of God."

doth not commit sin—His higher nature, as one born or begotten of God, doth not sin. To be begotten of God and to sin, are states mutually excluding one another. In so far as one sins, he makes it doubtful whether he be born of God.

his seed—the living word of God, made by the Holy Spirit the seed in us of a new life and the continual mean of sanctification.

Being born again is a continuous stating of being.
The victory has already been won through the shedding of blood on the cross.
The victory comes through believing Rom 10:9-10, 1 John 5:5 NIV...

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 4:4 NIV You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

ATP, James plainly says the saints are not only capable of sin, but will be judged by the law, and there is no other way to interpret his words. Therefore, the foundation for OSAS - the belief that sinful behavior of saints is not considered sinful in the sight of God - is no foundation at all.

Phoneman777 · Mar 6, 2016

ATP said:
We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of God, the knowledge of truth, or knowing God but not accepting His salvation. Apostates are not born again christians...Matt 7:15 NIV, Matt 10:16 NIV, Matt 24:11 NIV, Matt 24:24 NIV, John 10:12 NIV, Acts 20:25-30 NIV, Rom 1:18-32 NIV, Rom 16:17 NIV, 1 Tim 6:20 NIV, 2 Tim 3:5 NIV, 2 Pet 2:1 NIV, 2 Pet 2:20 NIV, 1 John 2:18-19 NIV, 1 John 4:1 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

The new commandment God gives His saints is to love others and forgive others as Christ forgave us...John 13:34-35 NIV, John 15:12 NIV, John 15:17 NIV, Gal 5:6 NIV, Gal 5:14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV, 1 John 3:23 NIV, 1 John 4:21 NIV, 2 John 1:5-6 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV

Confidence in God comes through believing and not self-righteous works...Jer 17:7 NIV, 2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Eph 3:12 NIV, Phil 1:3-6 NIV, Heb 10:19-22 NIV, Heb 11:1 NIV, Heb 13:6 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, 1 John 4:17 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV

We no longer continue to sin. The Law was made for sinners, but we are no longer under the law but under grace...Prov 20:9 NIV, Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV, 1 John 1:8-10 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV

Running the race is about winning or losing crowns in heaven and has nothing to do with original salvation...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, Matt 18:18 NIV, Matt 19:21 NIV, Acts 20:24 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 4:12 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Gal 5:7 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, Heb 12:1 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV

Once we believed we were baptized into Christ's death once and for all...Rom 6:3-5 NIV, Rom 8:36 ESV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV

Believers are no longer enemies of God, rather nonbelievers are...Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

Once we believed and came to faith in Jesus Christ we also now have freedom to approach God with confidence...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 6:18-20 NIV, Gal 2:4 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 3:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Rev 1:5 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Psalm 33:11-12 NIV, Psalm 37:18 NIV, Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:34 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV / Isa 29:13 NIV / Matt 15:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

Your inheritance is KEPT in heaven for you in Christ Jesus...1 Thess 5:23 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, John 18:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...Psa 20:6-9 NIV, Psalm 44:5-8 NIV, John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

The saints persevere because God's grace never leaves them. God will keep His promises...Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Acts 2:32-33 NIV, Rom 4:13-25 NIV, Gal 3:13-14 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 3:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 8:6 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV

Our inheritance is kept in heaven for us through the power and protection of God...Psa 5:11-12 NIV, Psa 18:2 NIV, John 17:11 NIV, John 17:15 NIV, Rom 1:16 NIV, Rom 1:20 NIV, Rom 15:13 NIV, 1 Cor 1:17 NIV, 1 Cor 2:4-5 NIV, 1 Cor 4:20 NIV, 1 Cor 5:4-5 NIV, 1 Cor 6:14 NIV, Eph 1:19-21 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

The Book of Psalms also confirms eternal security...Psalm 18:2 NIV, Psalm 21:4 NIV, Psalm 28:8-9 NIV, Psalm 33:11-12 NIV, Psalm 34:19-20 NIV, Psalm 37:39-40 NIV, Psalm 48:8-9 NIV, Psalm 48:14 NIV, Psalm 62:1-2 NIV, Psalm 73:26 NIV, Psalm 89:1-4 NIV, Psalm 94:16-18 NIV, Psalm 100:4-5 NIV / Psalm 108:4 NIV / Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Psalm 106:1 NIV, Psalm 107:1-2 NIV / Psalm 103:4 NIV, Psalm 111:9 NIV, Psalm 121:1-8 NIV, Psalm 130:7-8 NIV, Psalm 135:13-14 NIV, Psalm 136:1-26 NIV, Psalm 139:9-10 NIV, Psalm 142:3 NIV, Psalm 145:13-14 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Psalm 127:1 NIV, Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

They fell away because they had no root, seed, and truth of salvation, which is Jesus Christ. Either you are born again or you are not...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, Rom 11:20 NIV, Rom 11:23 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Rev 5:5 NIV, Rev 22:16 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

And some extra's that prove God's grace never leaves us...Matt 19:25-26 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 17:26 NIV, Rom 7:21-25 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 5:1-5 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Col 1:3-5 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV / Psalm 100:4-5 NIV / Psalm 108:4 NIV / Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, 2 Tim 4:18 NIV, Heb 6:16-19 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV

When will you realize that no one is reading these humongous walls that you post, man? I've told you time and time again, but you refuse to listen. You are as thick as a brick!

Phoneman777 · Mar 6, 2016

mjrhealth said:
OSAS.

Simple . Once saved always saved.

has to do with this as I shared before.

2Ti_2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If one has truly come to Christ, and one is Born again, than one is without sin, we are washed clean with His blood, we are made righteous because He is righteous, it is not our own. We have passed from "death to life" we have left our lives at the cross., and now walk teh narrow road that leads to life. we are no longer condemened, for His righteouseness is without sin, so we are saved. It is done. The cross in no loger our focus, taht is where we laid down our lives, that was the end of self, now He, " Christ" is our focus. for He is our salvation.

As far as God is concenred it is done. As Jesus said "it is finished"

Man just doesnt believe Him

Sorry about teh Him yes i meant him.

If we are OSAS, then why did Jesus give us the parable of the Unmerciful Servant who after receiving the forgiveness that he asked for was once again condemned to pay the debt of his sin?

Born_Again · Mar 6, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
If we are OSAS, then why did Jesus give us the parable of the Unmerciful Servant who after receiving the forgiveness that he asked for was once again condemned to pay the debt of his sin?

Further, there would be no need for forgiveness.

And answer this, ATP, thinking of all the small sins we don't often consider. If for even one brief moment you have a negative thought about someone, you have sinned. (Take into consideration lust). Also, and heres the big one, careful how you answer, if you do not sin in any way, shape or form, you would be seemingly perfect. That is not humanly possible. That would mean you are as Christ is. You are still welcomed to explain a few versus with proper exegesis.

However, if you are implying that we are always saved because we are forgiven even when we do sin, then that is acceptable. By all means, continue!

ATP · Mar 6, 2016

Born_Again said:
Now I am at an impasse. Why? Because you shot a bunch of verses with no exegesis. So, do I look every single one of those up and see if they are interpreted correctly or do I let this go and agree to disagree..... Really, all your verse pushing did nothing. Unless you explain (as I asked you to do in the first place) then there's no point. It reminds me of arguing with a catholic. They post a verse, bend it how they want and use the word "clearly" as an end all be all statement. Unless you care to explain each verse, its entirely possible I'm going to ignore you and assume you don't really know. C'mon ATP, I really expected better out of you. You kinda let me down on this one.

I guess we can start with eternal life. How do we obtain eternal life?

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, James plainly says the saints are not only capable of sin, but will be judged by the law, and there is no other way to interpret his words. Therefore, the foundation for OSAS - the belief that sinful behavior of saints is not considered sinful in the sight of God - is no foundation at all.

Saints are capable of sinning and also repenting. Saints will repent. That is my testimony to you. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life...

Psa 21:4 NIV He asked you for life, and you gave it to him-- length of days, for ever and ever.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Phoneman777 said:
When will you realize that no one is reading these humongous walls that you post, man? I've told you time and time again, but you refuse to listen. You are as thick as a brick!

I don't care if you choose not to read it. You're not the only one reading threads. There are many forum guests who do care. That is three years worth of research, and I'm proud of it. It's a daily reminder of what God has revealed to me. I've pretty much been using your false doctrine as a means to find the truth. - ATP

Phoneman777 said:
If we are OSAS, then why did Jesus give us the parable of the Unmerciful Servant who after receiving the forgiveness that he asked for was once again condemned to pay the debt of his sin?

Why did Jesus give us the parable of the rich man if it doesn't prove soul sleep is false? Parables are not historical facts, rather they are meant for us to examine our spiritual condition. Otherwise, God is in contradiction because He already paid the sin debt once and for all...

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Matt 18:21-35 NIV - The Unmerciful Servant - In this parable the unforgiving servant is sent to the torturers by the king (God) for his unwillingness to forgive others. In the broader context of understanding the law of love, and the immediate context of forgiveness, I think this means that if we are unwilling to love well and forgive others, God will “torture” us by using the devil at his disposal. I interpret torture as causing us to live and fail by our own efforts, to face our evil, recognize our sin and appreciate God’s forgiveness of us. Then we will in turn forgive others because we will see that we are just as bad as them and capable of doing the same thing they did to us.

This forgiveness is to be understood of averting calamities and judgments, likely to fall for his iniquities, which is sometimes the sense of this phrase: see 1 Kings 8:34 and so his being delivered to the tormentors may mean, his being distressed with an accusing guilty conscience, an harassing, vexing devil, many misfortunes of life, and temporal calamities. Though after all, this is not strictly to be applied to any particular case or person, but the scope of the parable is to be attended to; which is to enforce mutual forgiveness among men, from having received full and free pardon at the hands of God; and that without the former, there is little reason to expect the latter, as appears from what follows.

Born_Again said:
Further, there would be no need for forgiveness.

Forgiveness comes in two different forms BA. Salvation vs sanctification. When God forgives a nonbeliever he/she obtains salvation. When God forgives a believer, God will sanctify Him unto righteousness. For the believer this is called "progressive sanctification".

Born_Again said:
And answer this, ATP, thinking of all the small sins we don't often consider. If for even one brief moment you have a negative thought about someone, you have sinned. (Take into consideration lust).

My point exactly. This is why losing our salvation is silly. The blood of Christ covers all sins....

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Born_Again said:
Also, and heres the big one, careful how you answer, if you do not sin in any way, shape or form, you would be seemingly perfect. That is not humanly possible. That would mean you are as Christ is. You are still welcomed to explain a few versus with proper exegesis.

However, if you are implying that we are always saved because we are forgiven even when we do sin, then that is acceptable. By all means, continue!

The purpose of sanctification is for us to mature in Christ. It is impossible to be without sin. Maturity is the word I think you are looking for.

Phoneman777 · Mar 6, 2016

ATP said:
I guess we can start with eternal life. How do we obtain eternal life?

Saints are capable of sinning and also repenting. Saints will repent. That is my testimony to you. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life...

Psa 21:4 NIV He asked you for life, and you gave it to him-- length of days, for ever and ever.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

I don't care if you choose not to read it. You're not the only one reading threads. There are many forum guests who do care. That is three years worth of research, and I'm proud of it. It's a daily reminder of what God has revealed to me. I've pretty much been using your false doctrine as a means to find the truth. - ATP

Why did Jesus give us the parable of the rich man if it doesn't prove soul sleep is false? Parables are not historical facts, rather they are meant for us to examine our spiritual condition. Otherwise, God is in contradiction because He already paid the sin debt once and for all...

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Matt 18:21-35 NIV - The Unmerciful Servant - In this parable the unforgiving servant is sent to the torturers by the king (God) for his unwillingness to forgive others. In the broader context of understanding the law of love, and the immediate context of forgiveness, I think this means that if we are unwilling to love well and forgive others, God will “torture” us by using the devil at his disposal. I interpret torture as causing us to live and fail by our own efforts, to face our evil, recognize our sin and appreciate God’s forgiveness of us. Then we will in turn forgive others because we will see that we are just as bad as them and capable of doing the same thing they did to us.

This forgiveness is to be understood of averting calamities and judgments, likely to fall for his iniquities, which is sometimes the sense of this phrase: see 1 Kings 8:34 and so his being delivered to the tormentors may mean, his being distressed with an accusing guilty conscience, an harassing, vexing devil, many misfortunes of life, and temporal calamities. Though after all, this is not strictly to be applied to any particular case or person, but the scope of the parable is to be attended to; which is to enforce mutual forgiveness among men, from having received full and free pardon at the hands of God; and that without the former, there is little reason to expect the latter, as appears from what follows.

Forgiveness comes in two different forms BA. Salvation vs sanctification. When God forgives a nonbeliever he/she obtains salvation. When God forgives a believer, God will sanctify Him unto righteousness. For the believer this is called "progressive sanctification".

My point exactly. This is why losing our salvation is silly. The blood of Christ covers all sins....

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

The purpose of sanctification is for us to mature in Christ. It is impossible to be without sin. Maturity is the word I think you are looking for.

ATP, there is no more sacrifice for sin if "we" (the saved) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth." Get it? The writer of to the Hebrew Christians who are washed in the blood, born again, redeemed folk tells them there is no more sacrifice for sin if they chart a course to sin willfully (without ever repenting).

ATP · Mar 6, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, there is no more sacrifice for sin if "we" (the saved) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth." Get it? The writer of to the Hebrew Christians who are washed in the blood, born again, redeemed folk tells them there is no more sacrifice for sin if they chart a course to sin willfully (without ever repenting).

The warnings in Hebrews are warnings to apostates Phone, pretend believers. How can there be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus was the one time sacrifice for sins. Get it?? Do you get how that is a contradiction? Jesus died for past, present and future sins Phone...

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him.

There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension.

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

- ATP

Phoneman777 · Mar 7, 2016

ATP said:
The warnings in Hebrews are warnings to apostates Phone, pretend believers. How can there be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus was the one time sacrifice for sins. Get it?? Do you get how that is a contradiction? Jesus died for past, present and future sins Phone...

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him.

There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension.

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

- ATP

ATP, this is a perfect example of how OSAS corrupts Scripture in order to establish itself. You see clearly that the text says "If WE.." but you somehow conclude "If WE" should be read "If OTHERS...". No, ATP, you cannot change Scripture in order to make it fit your ideas. It plainly says "WE".

"If 'WE CHRISTIANS' sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin..." OSAS is destroyed right here.

ATP · Mar 7, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
No, ATP, you cannot change Scripture in order to make it fit your ideas. It plainly says "WE".

And you are a sloppy scholar. And you cannot change what Jesus did on the cross for you. There are more contradictions in Heb 10 proving they are warnings to pretend believers...

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - "Deliberately keep on sinning" is describing nonbelievers, not believers...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of God, the knowledge of truth, or knowing God but not accepting His salvation. Apostates are not born again christians...Matt 7:15 NIV, Matt 10:16 NIV, Matt 24:11 NIV, Matt 24:24 NIV, John 10:12 NIV, Acts 20:25-30 NIV, Rom 1:18-32 NIV, Rom 16:17 NIV, 1 Tim 6:20 NIV, 2 Tim 3:5 NIV, 2 Pet 2:1 NIV, 2 Pet 2:20 NIV, 1 John 2:18-19 NIV, 1 John 4:1 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - It's impossible for there to be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus already paid the sin debt as a one time sacrifice for sins. Once you come to faith and believe in the resurrection you are saved until redemption...Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Heb 10:27 NIV Contradiction - This passage is referring to the wrath of God, but believers are no longer appointed to wrath...Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV

Heb 10:27 NIV Contradiction - This passage says God's wrath will consume His enemies, but believers are no longer enemies of God...Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

Heb 10:28 NIV Contradiction - Believers are no longer under the law but under grace, which is the "new covenant"...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 Cor 11:25 NIV, 2 Cor 3:6 NIV, Heb 8:6 NIV, Heb 8:13 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 12:24 NIV

Heb 10:29 NIV Contradiction - This passage is referring to OT sanctification through the blood of animals. The Mosaic covenant was ratified with blood; and with that blood both the tabernacle with all its vessels, and the people who worshiped before it were sanctified and set apart as holy to the Lord. The covenant of grace however is ratified with the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Moses took from the offerings half of the blood and put it in bowls and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. He read to the people the book of the covenant and once again they all responded, "All that the LORD has said we will do" (Exod 24:7 NIV). Hearing once more their pledge of obedience to the Lord, Moses sprinkled the people with the blood, saying, ‘"This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words"’ (Exod 24:8 NIV). This was a very solemn moment in their national history, for with this sprinkling of the blood and their promise to be obedient, the covenant was ratified and they were sanctified as the people of God (Heb 9:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:29 NIV). As His people, they would be governed by Him according to the commandments and statutes that He had given to them.

Heb 10:30-31 NIV Contradiction - These passages are referring to unbelieving Israel for whom He will judge Ezek 18:30 NIV. They are also referring to the wrath of God, but believers are no longer appointed to wrath...Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV

Phoneman777 · Mar 7, 2016

ATP said:
And you are a sloppy scholar.

So "we" doesn't mean the writer of Hebrews and his fellow Christian brethren to whom he is writing? And you call me a sloppy scholar? LOL

ATP · Mar 8, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
So "we" doesn't mean the writer of Hebrews and his fellow Christian brethren to whom he is writing? And you call me a sloppy scholar? LOL

No one can snatch them out of the hands of Jesus and also the Father's hand. Saints are either in God’s hand of blessing or His hand of chastisement...

John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Heb 10:31 NIV It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Phoneman777 · Mar 8, 2016

ATP said:
No one can snatch them out of the hands of Jesus and also the Father's hand. Saints are either in God’s hand of blessing or His hand of chastisement...

John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Heb 10:31 NIV It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

ATP, no one is talking about "snatching" or "kidnapping". Those promises you posted refer to "involuntary removal from His hand" - which I fully believe the Lord will never allow happen to the Christian who desires to remain in His hand. However, my claim is that the individual Christian may choose "voluntary removal from His hand" by stepping down and walking away from it, and you won't find one single verse which says otherwise. That's why James says that believers are to refrain from sin, lest they come under judgment by the Law of Liberty, the Ten Commandments.

When you understand that God's hand remains ever open, either to beckon others in or allow others to leave, then you will abandon OSAS once and for all.

ATP · Mar 8, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
which I fully believe the Lord will never allow happen to the Christian who desires to remain in His hand.

However, my claim is that the individual Christian may choose "voluntary removal from His hand" by stepping down and walking away from it, and you won't find one single verse which says otherwise.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

mjrhealth · Mar 9, 2016

Can someone tell me if Gods plan for mans salvation is flawed, because of mankind????

Phoneman777 · Mar 9, 2016

ATP said:
John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The Devils believe and tremble.

ATP · Mar 9, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
The Devils believe and tremble.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Phoneman777 · Mar 9, 2016

ATP said:
Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

"For the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 KJV

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24 KJV

"Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." John 8:34 KJV

"If we (I, James, and you to whom I write, brethren) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10:26 KJV

ATP · Mar 9, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
"For the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 KJV

The devils did not declare with their mouth...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Phoneman777 · Mar 9, 2016

ATP said:
The devils did not declare with their mouth...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

They most certainly do:

"And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, [thou] Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." Luke 4:33-34 KJV

ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads