Failed Prophecies

Willie T said:

Oh, that's good to hear. I was 'fraid there was going to be, all of a sudden, a special period of 7 years of something called "THE Great Tribulation" But, search as I may, I can't find a period of time with that designation anywhere in the Bible.

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I only know about what Jesus said, then shall be great tribulation, worse than anything before or since (paraphrased), after the abomination of desolation.

Much love!

Willie T said:

I wonder why John told the people in the congregations of those 7 churches in ancient Asia (today's Turkey) that he was, at the time of him writing Revelation to them, "a brother with them in that tribulation?"

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Jesus told us that we would have tribulation (trouble) that came out of being one of His followers. And so we have. It has been estimated that 70 million Christians have been martyred in the 2,000 year history of the faith. Even today, approximately 100,000 Christian martyrs suffer and die every year--mostly in Muslim countries. But, there is a different character to the martyrdom which will take place under the world government of "the man of sin" (the Antichrist). While there are many who have operated in the "spirit of antichrist" down through the centuries of the Church, there will be only one thoroughly evil individual who will stand in the Temple of God and announce that he is God. Jesus told His followers to expect a future "abomination of desolation" such as what happened a couple of centuries before Jesus (215 B.C.) when Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecrated the Temple (he erected a statue of the Greek god, Zeus, slaughtered a pig on the altar and announced that he was Zeus). We can be sure that the Antichrist will be a real entity and that he will come one day to persecute Gentile Christians and Jewish-Christians. With all of the hostility being directed at Christians and Jews, it seems that those who belong to the world are being primed to accept that persecution.

Willie T said:

I wonder why John told the people in the congregations of those 7 churches in ancient Asia (today's Turkey) that he was, at the time of him writing Revelation to them, "a brother with them in that tribulation?"

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Surely you should know that Christians were being persecuted almost immediately after Pentecost. Both the unbelieving Jews and the pagan Romans were persecuting them. So what John said corresponded to what he and other Christians were experiencing.

But that was not the Great Tribulation or even the future Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble).

marks said:

HI Keraz,

On this part, bolded above, of course this means that these things will come upon all who are alive upon the earth at the time they happen, correct? I mean, my mom won't be there, she's already died. She's left the scene where this is happening.

So not everyone who lives must undergo the great tribulation. And if the church happens to be removed before it begins, they they are on the same par as those who died before it begins.

They are not in this world, not subject to the things of this world, because God, in His wisdom and timing, removed them, either by death or rapture.

But I do deny that my rapture view is based on a desire to preserve my flesh.

Much love!

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Obviously Luke 21:35 means everyone alive at that time.
Your premise that God will take His people out before He strikes the world with His fiery wrath, is untenable as there is no scripture that supports it.
How do you fit Luke 21:25-28 into your belief? There is a very plain sequence there.

Also, those who avoid the testing and discipline of God, are not His children. Hebrews 12:9

Enoch111 said:

But that was not the Great Tribulation or even the future Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble).

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Yes, that's for sure.

Keraz said:

Obviously Luke 21:35 means everyone alive at that time.
Your premise that God will take His people out before He strikes the world with His fiery wrath, is untenable as there is no scripture that supports it.

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Hi Keraz,

Are we foregoing the bit about that I believe pretrib because I want to avoid tribulation? Are we OK with that I simply believe it's what the Bible teaches?

What I'm saying initially is that there is no requirement that all Christians live through the end of the age, and that whether they are removed by death or rapture, whether that is to happen or not, this is not prohibited in the prophecies.

There is nothing that says every believer will be there, so saying, You don't just get to "not be there" isn't correct. Plenty won't be there.

Whether there is a rapture, and if so, when, is a different question.

How do you fit Luke 21:25-28 into your belief? There is a very plain sequence there.

Also, those who avoid the testing and discipline of God, are not His children. Hebrews 12:9

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Who is avoiding anything? I die when I die, I'm not in charge of that, right? And by the same token, if I'm to be raptured, that will happen according to God's will, not mine. So what am I avoiding?

You aren't saying that because I believe a pre-trib rapture that I'm not God's child, are you?

To answer your question on Luke 21:

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This is the Byzantine, the Alexandrian reads, that you may have strenth to escape all these things.

"Escape" is "fleeing out of", or as we would think of escape.

There will be terrible and perilous doings, to say the least. God tells those who will be in it to pray for (I think "strength" is most likely the right reading, but I'm not dogmatic in it) to pray for the strength to flee out of all these things that are coming, and to stand before Jesus when He returns to the earth. I think the first application is to the Jews in Judea at that time, but applies to anyone caught up in that time of history.

Much love!

bbyrd009 said:

Like that has something to do with this? Like i am the only one who might read your expound? So this is strictly an ego exercising area for you then, right, and my disease is a handy way for you to floss?

Or i mean how else do you expect me to take that? I'm not being a dick or anything, am i?
Not meaning to anyway. Ok, sorry i poked your cage sir

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Take it any way you like. Just keep that rug handy.

Stranger

bbyrd009 said:

ah. Maybe one of your sycophants can explain, i'm not getting it.
I don't make any sense? Do you guys just like hold grudges for life or something i guess?
yikes

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You're not getting it? What a revelation that is. orvnt

Stranger

bbyrd009 said:

I think i got your last sentence, but could you rephrase? Ty

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Sure, I mean I don't allow myself the luxury of pretending a verse that contradicts my beliefs doesn't exist in order to retain those beliefs. For instance, I could not continue to subscribe to Jesuit Futurism when someone pointed out all those verses which depict an empty, desolate, dark, post-mankind uninhabited Earth, because Jesuit Futurism depicts a continuous stream of human activity on Earth from now through to the "secret rapture" the tribulation, the Second Coming, the "thousand year reign of the righteous over the wicked", etc.

Ignoring those verses which made my Futurist views inconsistent with Scripture was never an option, nor is doing so today an option.

Nancy said:

Ooooh yes indeed! I so depend on His mercies that are "new every day" ♥ There are a few who do try my patience! Lol.

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Oh, stop. Sweethearts like you and ByGrace and Naomi, etc. should have a handicap imposed on y'all like in golf or bracket drag racing...just to make if fair for the rest of us LOL

Stranger said:

Take it any way you like. Just keep that rug handy.

Stranger

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you think all this shucking and jiving is gonna work with Abba too, Strange?

marks said:

For me, it puts the visual to what is taught elsewhere. I don't see any conflict with understanding this to be a true story.

Much love!

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They aren't apparent until someone points them out. The problem is that most have accepted the idea of "thou shalt not surely die" so these issues are to them not worthy of consideration.

But, I'll be happy to list just a few:

• Both the Rich Man and Lazarus have body parts, which everyone agrees doesn't happen until the Second Coming, which the passage clearly indicates has not happened yet by virtue of the "five brothers" that are still eligible to recieve warning.

• The dead cannot communicate with anyone. David, with whom Hezekiah agrees, says the "dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" of the grave, but the Rich Man is there just talking away.

• Job says the dead are totally unconscious of anything going on in the lives of their still living relatives, but the Rich Man is well aware of the danger that his yet living brothers are in.

• Solomon says when we go to the grave, we have no wisdom or knowledge of "anything that is done under the sun" but here the Rich Man is defying the words of Solomon.

• Solomon says they don't have the ability to lay plans or devise a course of action, they have no memory recall, no emotions, etc., yet the Rich Man recognizes Abraham as his "father of the faithful", is burdened with desire to warn his five brothers, and devises a plan to have Lazarus sent back to the land of the living to warn them, etc.

So, these are just a few examples of how making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal description of what happens when we die generates inescapable contradictions with what is written elsewhere in Scripture. The only way to make the contradictions go away is to admit the passage is a parable, which can be easily shown by further examination. For instance, can on drop of water on the tongue of someone completely engulfed in flame "cool" anything, or can such a one carry on an intelligent conversation with another? Even the tiniest flame is enough to cause anyone to totally lose their mind, right? Clearly, this is symbolism, the foundation of which parables are built

marks said:

I don't think he really said that.

He said we have an heavenly body, and that we don't actually want to be unclothed, that is, disembodied.

Consider, "lying in the grave dead without a body", it is the body that lies in the grave. Without a spirit. But regarding our state after this life, "we have" a celestial body even now, and to disconnect from this body in death, well, right now, we walk by faith, since we don't see our spirit-walk, we just see our terrestrial walk. But when we see face to face, it will be in our heavenly body - a spirit body made for the celestial realm - and in our mortal body resurrected to immortal life by being clothed upon with with our celestial body.

Much love!

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If disembodiment was a real thing, why does Paul have a problem with it? Won't he be in heaven anyway? Won't he be enjoying the presence of the Savior, the glories of heaven, etc.? Won't he be looking down and smiling and visiting loved ones and protecting them from unseen dangers, etc.?

The only way Paul's words make sense is that disembodiment is not a real thing, the dead go to the grave and wait for the resurrection like Peter said is precisely what David is doing, saying "David is not ascended into the heavens" (which is not talking about his body, for everyone knew his bones were still in that tomb), and that Paul expected to wait in the grave where Job says we all wait when we die but did not want to wait there "unclothed" and "naked". We really have an enormous amount of Scripture evidence against disembodiment and for the "state of insensibility" that is Biblical death.

marks said:

I don't think he really said that.

He said we have an heavenly body, and that we don't actually want to be unclothed, that is, disembodied.

Consider, "lying in the grave dead without a body", it is the body that lies in the grave. Without a spirit. But regarding our state after this life, "we have" a celestial body even now, and to disconnect from this body in death, well, right now, we walk by faith, since we don't see our spirit-walk, we just see our terrestrial walk. But when we see face to face, it will be in our heavenly body - a spirit body made for the celestial realm - and in our mortal body resurrected to immortal life by being clothed upon with with our celestial body.

Much love!

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Let's keep in mind that "as the body without the Spirit is dead..." according to James LOL

I can't believe nobody got the "Hanover Fist" reference.

Phoneman777 said:

They aren't apparent until someone points them out. The problem is that most have accepted the idea of "thou shalt not surely die" so these issues are to them not worthy of consideration.

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Hi Phoneman,

God told Adam that on the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree, on that day he would die. Did Adam die on that same day?

Much love!

Phoneman777 said:

But, I'll be happy to list just a few:

• Both the Rich Man and Lazarus have body parts, which everyone agrees doesn't happen until the Second Coming, which the passage clearly indicates has not happened yet by virtue of the "five brothers" that are still eligible to recieve warning.

• The dead cannot communicate with anyone. David, with whom Hezekiah agrees, says the "dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" of the grave, but the Rich Man is there just talking away.

• Job says the dead are totally unconscious of anything going on in the lives of their still living relatives, but the Rich Man is well aware of the danger that his yet living brothers are in.

• Solomon says when we go to the grave, we have no wisdom or knowledge of "anything that is done under the sun" but here the Rich Man is defying the words of Solomon.

• Solomon says they don't have the ability to lay plans or devise a course of action, they have no memory recall, no emotions, etc., yet the Rich Man recognizes Abraham as his "father of the faithful", is burdened with desire to warn his five brothers, and devises a plan to have Lazarus sent back to the land of the living to warn them, etc.

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On these . . . let's be sure to include Samuel speaking with Saul. Scripture says that Samuel spoke to Saul after Samuel had died. Did he?

Much love!

Phoneman777 said:

Let's keep in mind that "as the body without the Spirit is dead..." according to James LOL

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The body without the spirit is indeed dead!

"I am the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob", God is the God of the living, this attests that these live.

Much love!