Was Judas Saved Or Not Saved?

mailmandan said:

None of them is lost expect Judas. He was the exception.

We read John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' So Judas was not of the elect.

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You are not making sense. Anyone who was "chosen" was "elect."

But now I learned one thing. The scripture in question is from Psalms. I don't see how it fits except very loosely.

Psalm 41:4 I said, Lord, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
6 And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it.
7 All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.
8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.
9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Did Jesus trust Judas and consider him a familiar friend? Did Jesus sin? It looks to me as if John didn't write that but someone added it later to John 13:18.

Giuliano said:

Do you know what scripture is meant there? I've wondered about that. It might give us a better understanding of what the passage means.

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'While I was with them in the world,
I kept them in Thy Name:
those that Thou gavest Me I have kept,
and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.'
(John 17:12)

Hello @Giuliano

I think you are referring to the words, ' ... the son of perdition': but just in case you are referring to the whole verse, let's look back first to the previous verse, 'And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.' The Lord is praying for those who are His (His disciples). He prays that they should be 'kept', for He does not want them taken out of the world, but that they should be kept from the evil that is in the world (v.15).

Judas when he betrayed His Lord, betrayed himself. The Lord knew the character of this man whom He had chosen, He was not deceived by him. The awful name given to him, 'The Son of Perdition', points forward to the Day of the Lord, when the Man of Sin shall appear and anti-christian apostasy fill the earth. Of those given to Him, the Saviour lost none. Peter had almost gone '... but,' said the Lord, 'I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not' (Luke 22:32). Thomas came near to the darkness of unbelief, but the Lord graciously revealed Himself, and Thomas acknowledged Him as, 'My Lord and my God'. No, He keeps and He guards all that the Father has given to Him. They shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of His hand.

Perdition: (quote) 'means 'loss', 'destruction', 'ruin; 'the end pronounced upon all who, having heard the summons to repentance and faith in Christ, have persisted in impenitence. The loss of all that such ever had, or might have had for ever; the destruction of such, in body, soul, and spirit; an utter and final ruin, which will not be reversed. Found in John 17:12; Philippians 1:28, 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 17:8, and Revelation 17:11.'

This is how the Holy Spirit has used this word, and I will not water it down by using my own understanding in relation to it's use in this instance (John 17:12). As you will agree it's meaning is clear.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

'While I was with them in the world,
I kept them in Thy Name:
those that Thou gavest Me I have kept,
and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.'
(John 17:12)

Hello @Giuliano

I think you are referring to the words, ' ... the son of perdition': but just in case you are referring to the whole verse, let's look back first to the previous verse, 'And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.' The Lord is praying for those who are His (His disciples). He prays that they should be 'kept', for He does not want them taken out of the world, but that they should be kept from the evil that is in the world (v.15).

Judas when he betrayed His Lord, betrayed himself. The Lord knew the character of this man whom He had chosen, He was not deceived by him. The awful name given to him, 'The Son of Perdition', points forward to the Day of the Lord, when the Man of Sin shall appear and anti-christian apostasy fill the earth. Of those given to Him, the Saviour lost none. Peter had almost gone '... but,' said the Lord, 'I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not' (Luke 22:32). Thomas came near to the darkness of unbelief, but the Lord graciously revealed Himself, and Thomas acknowledged Him as, 'My Lord and my God'. No, He keeps and He guards all that the Father has given to Him. They shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of His hand.

Perdition: (quote) 'means 'loss', 'destruction', 'ruin; 'the end pronounced upon all who, having heard the summons to repentance and faith in Christ, have persisted in impenitence. The loss of all that such ever had, or might have had for ever; the destruction of such, in body, soul, and spirit; an utter and final ruin, which will not be reversed. Found in John 17:12; Philippians 1:28, 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 17:8, and Revelation 17:11.'

This is how the Holy Spirit has used this word, and I will not water it down by using my own understanding in relation to it's use in this instance (John 17:12). As you will agree it's meaning is clear.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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I'm still confused. Are you saying Judas is going to appear again as the "man of sin"?

Giuliano said:

I'm still confused. Are you saying Judas is going to appear again as the "man of sin"?

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Hello Giuliano,

No, the words, 'Son of Perdition', takes the mind to 'The man of sin', who is also so named in 2 Thessalonians 2:3; Judas is dead, and awaiting judgement.

Sorry if I have confused you.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Giuliano said:

Uh, wait. John says he did repent.

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Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb. 12:16-17)

How many people followed Jesus for a time and then departed him during his earthly ministry when he said something hard for them to accept? Were they saved? Some undoubtedly truly repented But many were shouting crucify Him in front of Pontius Pilate. Even Peter denied Christ thrice. Remember there was a transition time between the old and new covenant during the ministry of Christ. The baptism of John applied then but was insufficient after the death of the testator, as was clearly addressed in Acts 19. John's baptism was a temporary remission of sins, Christ cleansed by his Blood sacrifice on the cross. The real question everyone needs to ask is am I washed in the blood, not whether you said a prayer of agreement to some doctrines and facts? Do you Know you are washed in the blood, have you experienced this cleansing? Have you felt the weight of sin fall off you, have you changed as a result of this? are you regenerated? These are not questioned asked in today's churches because they are not comfortable to the hearers, and create doubts, but these doubt are healthy spiritually, they are the conviction of the Holy Ghost.

Giuliano said:

Remorse means the same thing as repentance to me. It means wishing you could go back and do things differently.

I cannot read minds and judge hearts.

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Giuliano said:

You are not making sense. Anyone who was "chosen" was "elect."

But now I learned one thing. The scripture in question is from Psalms. I don't see how it fits except very loosely.

Psalm 41:4 I said, Lord, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
6 And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it.
7 All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.
8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.
9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Did Jesus trust Judas and consider him a familiar friend? Did Jesus sin? It looks to me as if John didn't write that but someone added it later to John 13:18.

Click to expand...

In regards to Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted.” Jesus referred to Judas as friend, yet Jesus did not say that He trusted Judas. Why would Jesus trust an unbelieving, unclean devil who He knew would betray Him?

charity said:

'While I was with them in the world,
I kept them in Thy Name:
those that Thou gavest Me I have kept,
and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.'
(John 17:12)

Hello @Giuliano

I think you are referring to the words, ' ... the son of perdition': but just in case you are referring to the whole verse, let's look back first to the previous verse, 'And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.' The Lord is praying for those who are His (His disciples). He prays that they should be 'kept', for He does not want them taken out of the world, but that they should be kept from the evil that is in the world (v.15).

Judas when he betrayed His Lord, betrayed himself. The Lord knew the character of this man whom He had chosen, He was not deceived by him. The awful name given to him, 'The Son of Perdition', points forward to the Day of the Lord, when the Man of Sin shall appear and anti-christian apostasy fill the earth. Of those given to Him, the Saviour lost none. Peter had almost gone '... but,' said the Lord, 'I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not' (Luke 22:32). Thomas came near to the darkness of unbelief, but the Lord graciously revealed Himself, and Thomas acknowledged Him as, 'My Lord and my God'. No, He keeps and He guards all that the Father has given to Him. They shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of His hand.

Perdition: (quote) 'means 'loss', 'destruction', 'ruin; 'the end pronounced upon all who, having heard the summons to repentance and faith in Christ, have persisted in impenitence. The loss of all that such ever had, or might have had for ever; the destruction of such, in body, soul, and spirit; an utter and final ruin, which will not be reversed. Found in John 17:12; Philippians 1:28, 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 17:8, and Revelation 17:11.'

This is how the Holy Spirit has used this word, and I will not water it down by using my own understanding in relation to it's use in this instance (John 17:12). As you will agree it's meaning is clear.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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you are right the " son of perdition" would be considered the worst identity any human being could be identified as by Jesus. This is why Jesus said it would of been better for him to have never been born than to betray Him the way the wicked one judas did to Him.

mailmandan said:

In regards to Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted.” Jesus referred to Judas as friend, yet Jesus did not say that He trusted Judas. Why would Jesus trust an unbelieving, unclean devil who He knew would betray Him?

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Jesus never trusted the thief, liar, betrayer, son of perdition, the wicked one etc...... all characteristics of the devil himself, not Godly character traits. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy and that is judas in a nutshell.


John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.

mailmandan said:

In regards to Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted.” Jesus referred to Judas as friend, yet Jesus did not say that He trusted Judas. Why would Jesus trust an unbelieving, unclean devil who He knew would betray Him?

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Because He chose him to aid in orchestrating His crusifiction.

David H. said:

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb. 12:16-17)

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Don't confuse spiritual forgiveness by God with earthly consequences. If I murder someone, I could repent and be forgiven, but that wouldn't bring the person back to life, would it?

How many people followed Jesus for a time and then departed him during his earthly ministry when he said something hard for them to accept? Were they saved? Some undoubtedly truly repented But many were shouting crucify Him in front of Pontius Pilate. Even Peter denied Christ thrice. Remember there was a transition time between the old and new covenant during the ministry of Christ. The baptism of John applied then but was insufficient after the death of the testator, as was clearly addressed in Acts 19. John's baptism was a temporary remission of sins, Christ cleansed by his Blood sacrifice on the cross. The real question everyone needs to ask is am I washed in the blood, not whether you said a prayer of agreement to some doctrines and facts? Do you Know you are washed in the blood, have you experienced this cleansing? Have you felt the weight of sin fall off you, have you changed as a result of this? are you regenerated? These are not questioned asked in today's churches because they are not comfortable to the hearers, and create doubts, but these doubt are healthy spiritually, they are the conviction of the Holy Ghost.

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I do not know what people mean when they talk about being washed in the blood. I don't think you know. I hope you don't mean the physical human blood that was shed. Jesus offered his blood to the disciples before that. He was talking about spiritual blood.

Since you ask personal questions, I have met and talked to Jesus more than once. My conscience is completely clear although there are things in the past I wish I could fix.

Giuliano said:

Don't confuse spiritual forgiveness by God with earthly consequences. If I murder someone, I could repent and be forgiven, but that wouldn't bring the person back to life, would it?


I do not know what people mean when they talk about being washed in the blood. I don't think you know. I hope you don't mean the physical human blood that was shed. Jesus offered his blood to the disciples before that. He was talking about spiritual blood.

Since you ask personal questions, I have met and talked to Jesus more than once. My conscience is completely clear although there are things in the past I wish I could fix.

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The body is burned without the camp the way I see it.

Waiting on him said:

Because He chose him to aid in orchestrating His crusifiction.

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I was wondering if anyone would bring this up. The comparison between Jesus and Judas in the New Testament with the two goats in the Old Testament seems unavoidable. One goat was sacrificed while the other "bore the sins" of people into the wilderness. Jews say the scapegoat was driven off a cliff. Matthew says Judas hanged himself while Acts says he fell headlong and his innards gushed out. Some try to reconcile those passages by saying he hanged himself and the rope broke -- I don't know about that -- but the comparison between Judas and the scapegoat should be obvious.

There is a comparison to be made between Jesus and the first goat too. A scarlet thread was around that goat's neck. If the thread turned white, the High Priest knew the sacrifice had been found acceptable. I don't know if it's true, but I've read that the scarlet threads stopped turning white in AD 30. I don't recall Leviticus discussing that scarlet thread; but Isaiah refers to it in principle:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The role of the scapegoat has different explanations. I buy the explanation that says the scapegoat's job was to bear the sins of the people back to the demon Azazel who had inspired them. I think that is why it's called Azazel in Hebrew. The demon Azazel is mentioned by name in the Book of Enoch.

Waiting on him said:

Because He chose him to aid in orchestrating His crusifiction.

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It is interesting too that Barabbas seemed to have a planned role since his name means "son of the father." Even stranger, "Antipas" is referred to as a "faithful martyr" in Revelation -- and his name means "in place of the father."

Giuliano said:

I was wondering if anyone would bring this up. The comparison between Jesus and Judas in the New Testament with the two goats in the Old Testament seems unavoidable. One goat was sacrificed while the other "bore the sins" of people into the wilderness. Jews say the scapegoat was driven off a cliff. Matthew says Judas hanged himself while Acts says he fell headlong and his innards gushed out. Some try to reconcile those passages by saying he hanged himself and the rope broke -- I don't know about that -- but the comparison between Judas and the scapegoat should be obvious.

There is a comparison to be made between Jesus and the first goat too. A scarlet thread was around that goat's neck. If the thread turned white, the High Priest knew the sacrifice had been found acceptable. I don't know if it's true, but I've read that the scarlet threads stopped turning white in AD 30. I don't recall Leviticus discussing that scarlet thread; but Isaiah refers to it in principle:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The role of the scapegoat has different explanations. I buy the explanation that says the scapegoat's job was to bear the sins of the people back to the demon Azazel who had inspired them. I think that is why it's called Azazel in Hebrew. The demon Azazel is mentioned by name in the Book of Enoch.

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What I find interesting is that NOWHERE in both Testaments is Jesus ever referred to as a scapegoat or a goat. And when Jesus referred to goats it was always negative as in the separation of the sheep and goats in the Judgment.

Christophany said:

What I find interesting is that NOWHERE in both Testaments is Jesus ever referred to as a scapegoat or a goat. And when Jesus referred to goats it was always negative as in the separation of the sheep and goats in the Judgment.

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Yup, Jesus was used as a scapegoat by Sadducee and Pharisees because Jesus had healed the handicap and the sickens that treated as a cursed disease, that's why they chose to exchange Jesus become as the goat with Barabbas as the sheep. Because of his doing he was alleged as an ally to Azazel the devil (Luke 6:6-11), because the Scribes and High priests have had those sickens people to the devil as a burnt offerings (Leviticus 16) to Nehustan (2 Kings 18:4).
According to them whosoever released the sacrificial people of the devil offerings will make devil go wrath and made troubles to the whole nation.

Yan said:

Yup, Jesus was used as a scapegoat by Sadducee and Pharisees because Jesus had healed the handicap and the sickens that treated as a cursed disease, that's why they chose to exchange Jesus as the goat with Barabas as a sheep. Because of his doing he was alleged as an ally to Azazel or the devil, because those Scribes and high priests have had those sickens people to the devil as a burnt offerings (Leviticus 16) to Nehustan (2 Kings 18:4).

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just like you were unable to find "mary" in every scripture yesterday where you claimed she was the queen of heaven and one of the 3 people in heaven worshiped, you did the same thing here. Jesus is NEVER called a goat or scapegoat but is called a Lamb numerous times in Both Testaments.

Why would you add to scripture things that are never mentioned ?

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

just like you were unable to find "mary" in every scripture yesterday where you claimed she was the queen of heaven and one of the 3 people in heaven worshiped, you did the same thing here. Jesus is NEVER called a goat or scapegoat but is called a Lamb numerous times in Both Testaments.

Why would you add to scripture things that are never mentioned ?

hope this helps !!!

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You can't see how this world works, don't you ?
Jesus was experienced being falsely accused with false flag propaganda, how the ruler of this world hath turn over everything into fallacy ?
And the psychological warfare was used against any people that being unliked by babylonian, and this tactic was used since Pharaoh to fight against all religious people including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Yan said:

You can't see how this world works, don't you ?
Jesus was experienced being falsely accused with false flag propaganda, how the ruler of this world hath turn over everything into fallacy ?
And the psychological warfare was used against any people that being unliked by babylonian, and this tactic was used since Pharaoh to fight against all religious people including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

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I see you avoided my question once again which speaks volumes as to the way you form your false doctrines regarding mary and this thread as well.

amadeus said:

How can we know if God has not revealed it to us? Is the judgement given to us to make?

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

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imo it would depend upon ones def of "saved?" Which you guys mean "going up to heaven after he has literally died," right, even if that is not what "saved" actually means?

Giuliano said:

So why can't more Christians today do this kind of thing? Are we lacking an anointing of some kind?

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It is my understanding that God moves in "seasons."