Does "the Gifts" List Refer To What Different People Get When They *become* Christians?

Anastacia said:

Now here is the second question I have for you.

You say "There is no such concept as gifts of [from] the Holy Spirit in the Bible."

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Yes -- it is a statement of fact. All christian sects that tout 'spiritual gifts' are corrupt and are false religions.

So then explain this verse. This verse clearly says there are ..."gifts." And this same verse says the...."Spirit distributes them."

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There is no scripture in the Bible manuscripts, which states that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts. In order for the Spirit to distribute gifts, the Spirit would have to own gifts to distribute. Since there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts, it would be impossible for the Spirit to distribute something that it does not possess. Clearly, you are using a corrupt Bible rendering.

Do you believe this scripture is false? In an earlier post you were asked by Nomad...

Which 'manuscripts' do not contain 'spiritual gifts?'

And you replied saying this:

The Greek manuscripts. The authors of the Books in the NT scribe the Word of God in Greek.

So again, are you saying 1 Corinthians 12:4 is false?

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No -- 1 Cor. 12:4 is not false -- only your understanding [brainwashing] of it is false.

The scripture with Strong's manuscript numbering -

1Co 12:4 NowG1161 there areG1526 diversitiesG1243 of gifts,G5486 butG1161 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit.G4151

There is nothing in the scripture about 'distribution' by the 'Spirit'.

Anastacia said:

What do you mean I am using a "bastardized rendering of the Bible"? The KJV is not the only version that says what the KJV says. And, I rarely quote from the KJV. So you must think all Bible translations are "bastardized"?

Never mind, watchman_02, I really don't want to discuss this any more with you. I remembered how you think the Holy Bible is corrupt.

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The KJV, itself, is riddled with many mistranslations. However, with the use of the Strong's Concordance, an English-speaking person can still know the true Word of God. Most English renderings thereafter the KJV are 'bastardized' in the sense that they are theologically [tradition-of-man] driven. When the true Word of God is used as proof against any particular sect's existing theology, the sect in noncomformance either has to admit their error and thereby dissolve itself or change the Word of God to make it fit their tradition-of-man religion. Most choose the latter. That's why I refer to those renderings as 'bastardized'.

You have been very clear in that you prefer to believe in the bastardized and corrupt renderings of false religions, at the disdain of the true Word of God.

newguy said:

watchman_2



You can't be serious. The Strong's Concordance is one of the worse grammar tools that one has. if you are serious about Greek buy a set Of Kittel's Theological Dictioaries and the BDAG.

Bubba

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I never said that Strong's Concordance was a 'grammar tool'. Perhaps, you should look up the definition of a 'concordance'. Strong's is simply a listing of the rendered words in the KJV and the corresponding meanings of the manuscript words. Strong's leaves it up to the user to ascertain proper or improper rendering by the KJV translators.

I have no comment regarding the resources that you cited [have never seen or reviewed them].

Rach said:

Watchman_2 said:
Since you don't know anything to be true for yourself, why don't you study and find outf??

I didn't say that I didn't 'know anything to be true'...I just said I wasn't a student of language. And honestly I question whether you are as well. Any number of people can and do claim to be all sorts of things on the internet. When I want to know if something is true or not I do several things. First, I pick up my Bible. If I find any particular passage difficult to understand, I use clearer passages that talk of the same thing to help me understand it. This is what scholars do, its called Hermeneutics, and honestly, there are many, many wonderful, Christ loving, bible centered scholars out there that I trust much more than Strongs Concordence. So I read references, biblical dictionaries, listen to preaches I know to be biblical.

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Since you don't know anything about Bible Truth yourself, how do you know who are and who are not a 'bible centered scholars'?? Since you claim to be employing proper hermeneutics, you should know that I have been correct all along here. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts.

It seems to me that you are simply using your own prejudice [indoctrinated brainwashing] from the church you attend, and not the Word of God itself, to determine who is and who is not a scholar.

Watchman_2 said:
You sound very foolish with that question... If they were all 'true' scholars, they would all agree.
Firstly I would say that perhaps I am foolish, but if I am then you probably are too. And should all 'true' scholars agree?? What about you...you obviously disagree with them...does that make you untrue or perhaps just the first biblical scholar in the world who happens to be right? How amazing that would be.
Honestly, when it comes down to it, I only say that everyone must agree on the primary Christian issues....those being Jesus' being fully man, fully God, the virgin birth, His death, burial and resurrection. Salvation through Jesus alone, through faith alone. To disagree on these closed hand issues makes one a heretic. But every other, secondary issue, I believe that Christians can discuss and disagree without it being a salvation issue.
So, I'm not getting upset about your thoughts. I think they're wrong, I think the bible very clearly, and quite simply states that "spiritual gifts" do in fact exist.
I'm more concerned with your comments on the Trinity, and that the Spirit is just the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is a separate person, just as Jesus is. One God in Three persons. This is a biblical doctrine that the historical orthodox church set down, by the Church founders and by the apostles themselves. To believe differently is heretical. I don't like to throw that word around, but I will not shrink away from it at the expense of my God. I'm very much hoping that this is not the case with you, because it, unlike your ideas on spiritual gifts, is not debatable.

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Well, first of all, there is no such thing as a Pentecostal or Charismacostal bible scholar. If anyone within those sects were Bible scholars, they would no longer be Pentecostals or Charismacostals. Those false religions are part of the endtime apostasy spoken of in 2 Thes. 2 and 1 Tim. 4:1. Nonetheless, one cannot blame Protestantism for the gross error of 'spiritual gifts' as the bastardization of Bible commenced in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries before the Reformation. The bastardized concept of 'spiritual gifts' was a carryover from the RCC into the Anglican church.

And, you show your Bible illiteracy as I have repeatedly proven that the Bible manuscripts do not state 'spiritual gifts' anywhere therein. Furthermore, you demonstrate more foolishness regarding your comment about the Trinity. No one of the historical othodox church and the church founders were 'inspired' by God in making such proclamation about the Trinity. The Apostles, themselves, never stated the word 'Trinity' anywhere in the NT, let alone define it as separate persons. Your error is glaring!

Watchman_2 said:

Yes -- it is a statement of fact. All christian sects that tout 'spiritual gifts' are corrupt and are false religions.



There is no scripture in the Bible manuscripts, which states that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts. In order for the Spirit to distribute gifts, the Spirit would have to own gifts to distribute. Since there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts, it would be impossible for the Spirit to distribute something that it does not possess. Clearly, you are using a corrupt Bible rendering.



No -- 1 Cor. 12:4 is not false -- only your understanding [brainwashing] of it is false.

The scripture with Strong's manuscript numbering -

1Co 12:4 NowG1161 there areG1526 diversitiesG1243 of gifts,G5486 butG1161 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit.G4151

There is nothing in the scripture about 'distribution' by the 'Spirit'.

[/size]

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It's almost like Strong's concordance is your bible. You are hanging on to your false beliefs about all Bible translations because you feel like you discovered something major with "no spiritual gifs." You've been shown by others here that you are wrong, yet you just can't admit it, it would mean your big revelation is wrong.

The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all in agreement. So no one is going to agree with you that there is nothing in the scripture about "distrubtuion" by the "Spirit."

Many denominations that say "spiritual gifts," some of them don't even believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues. So your theory is wrong on that account too. You blame the Roman Catholic Religion for putting in "spiritual gifts" to throw people off of the truth---the Roman Catholic Church didn't even teach that their believers could speak in tongues, only lately has it been spreading to the Catholic religion.

You say I've been brain washed to understand 1 Corinthians 12:4, you can't understand that plain and simple scripture.

Watchman_2 said:

The KJV, itself, is riddled with many mistranslations. However, with the use of the Strong's Concordance, an English-speaking person can still know the true Word of God. Most English renderings thereafter the KJV are 'bastardized' in the sense that they are theologically [tradition-of-man] driven. When the true Word of God is used as proof against any particular sect's existing theology, the sect in noncomformance either has to admit their error and thereby dissolve itself or change the Word of God to make it fit their tradition-of-man religion. Most choose the latter. That's why I refer to those renderings as 'bastardized'.

You have been very clear in that you prefer to believe in the bastardized and corrupt renderings of false religions, at the disdain of the true Word of God.

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You say the KJV is tainted by the tradition of men, but again, the nowadays speaking in tongues came after the KJV was written. So your theory is wrong on yet another point, because you are saying spiritual gifts were put in deliberately to throw people into false doctrines. You have false beliefs that gifts from the Spirit make for false doctrine. I don't believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues, so what false doctrines are you accusing me of having?

And the NIV is translated from people of many different denominations, and not all, if any of those denonimations are from the Penecostal or Charismatic group.

Anastacia said:

It's almost like Strong's concordance is your bible. You are hanging on to your false beliefs about all Bible translations because you feel like you discovered something major with "no spiritual gifs." You've been shown by others here that you are wrong, yet you just can't admit it, it would mean your big revelation is wrong.

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LOL...your foolishness is overwhelming. You want to believe that the Word of God was originally scribed in English, so that you can use your understanding of the NIV as the bases for the Word of God.

The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all in agreement. So no one is going to agree with you that there is nothing in the scripture about "distrubtuion" by the "Spirit."

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So?? It still does not diminish the facts that there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' and 'distribution by the Spirit' in the Word of God. After all, you admitted that the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. The Holy Spirit IS the gift from God as well [Acts 1:4-5].

It is quite ok with me that you choose to be one of the willingly ignorant and live in denial as to Bible Truth. It doesn't bother me one bit.

Many denominations that say "spiritual gifts," some of them don't even believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues. So your theory is wrong on that account too. You blame the Roman Catholic Religion for putting in "spiritual gifts" to throw people off of the truth---the Roman Catholic Church didn't even teach that their believers could speak in tongues, only lately has it been spreading to the Catholic religion.

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Any denomination that touts 'spiritual gifts' is a false religion. It matters not that it started in the RCC -- each denomination is responsible for their own teachings as each has access to the Bible manuscripts by way of the KJV and a Strong's Concordance.

You say I've been brain washed to understand 1 Corinthians 12:4, you can't understand that plain and simple scripture.

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It is not just 1 Cor. 12:4 that you are brainwashed in. You have assumed that your church is the 'true' Church without doing your homework first. Instead of taking an objective view of Bible Truth, you put the blinders on to anything in opposition to your tradition-of-man church.

Anastacia said:

You say the KJV is tainted by the tradition of men,. . .

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It is easy enough to prove. See Acts 12:4.

. . . but again, the nowadays speaking in tongues came after the KJV was written.

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So?? Many false religions have come about thereafter the printing of the KJV.

So your theory is wrong on yet another point, because you are saying spiritual gifts were put in deliberately to throw people into false doctrines.

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If you actually studied the Bible instead of wanting to argue with me due to your hatred of those that speak out against your false religion, you would know that I am correct. The false concept of 'spriitual gifts' was a carryover into the Anglican Church from the RCC. There was no linguistic basis for the addition of 'gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12. The translators added 'gifts' simply as a result of their tradition-of-man beliefs. The same can be said for their mistranslation of 'Easter' in Acts. 12:4.

You have false beliefs that gifts from the Spirit make for false doctrine. I don't believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues, so what false doctrines are you accusing me of having?

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You believe that 'spiritual gifts' is Biblical, when it is not. You might as well claim that the tooth fairy is Biblical too.

And the NIV is translated from people of many different denominations, and not all, if any of those denonimations are from the Penecostal or Charismatic group.

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If you knew anything about the NIV, you would not be using it! It is as corrupt a rendering that exists.

BritGuy said:

Is anyone able to give a simple "yes" or "no"?

If you are unable or unwilling because you don't really understand the passage, how would you re-word the question to get to the key to understanding what it refers to?

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BritGuy said:

It says:
"to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues"
(1 Cor. 12:8-10)

If so, how do those Christians without faith, knowledge or discernment manage?

Also, why does Acts say they ALL received the Spirit & spoke in tongues then all grew in knowledge, faith etc?

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I wouldn't reword the question, If I did I would ask are all the gifts of the Spirit given or do we receive only one.
My answer to my own question is all are available to all as the Spirit deems necessary. Just read verse 4-6 and let it sink in before reading 7-10 1 Cor 12:4-6

You answered your own question with a question. " If so, how do those Christians without faith, knowledge or discernment manage?"
It doesn't make much sense does it. The fact is they can't. We can easily find the Apostles exercising more than one. In the same way I don't believe that one is evident in every case at the moment of salvation. I really don't want to get involved in the gang beating going on in here but I am happy to reply to you.God Bless I enjoy your post.

BritGuy said:

Is anyone able to give a simple "yes" or "no"?

If you are unable or unwilling because you don't really understand the passage, how would you re-word the question to get to the key to understanding what it refers to?

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If you read my posts on this topic, you would know that I answered the topic question -- NO!

Watchman_2 said:
'Since you don't know anything about Bible Truth yourself, how do you know who are and who are not a 'bible centered scholars'?? Since you claim to be employing proper hermeneutics, you should know that I have been correct all along here. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts.'

Since I don't know anything about Bible Truth?? Do you know me? Do you know of my faith? Do you know of my love? Do you know of my relationship with God? You slag around accusations that are based on nothing more than your own high opinion of yourself and your 'superior interpretation' of scripture. Shame on you. Being this aggressive towards those who disagree with you will do nothing but hurt many people and make them deaf to anything you say.

Watchman_2 said:
'It seems to me that you are simply using your own prejudice [indoctrinated brainwashing] from the church you attend, and not the Word of God itself, to determine who is and who is not a scholar.'

And if I said that it was the Word of God I was getting my ideas from you would say; 'It's an erroneous interpretation...mine's correct', or 'I can correctly interpret scripture in it's original language...no one else can'. Nothing anyone can or will say will gain agreement from you. You say our 'mainstream' churches are false, that every scholar that came before you is false, that spiritual gifts (even when we see proofs of them in our daily life) don't exist, and that the Trinity is just a man made mistake (it is in fact a made man term to fit the true nature of God as He Himself has revealed to us through His own word). But of course we're wrong...hey maybe God Himself is wrong...maybe you would make a better god. It seems, after all, that you know better.


Watchman_2 said:
"Well, first of all, there is no such thing as a Pentecostal or Charismacostal bible scholar. If anyone within those sects were Bible scholars, they would no longer be Pentecostals or Charismacostals. Those false religions are part of the endtime apostasy spoken of in 2 Thes. 2 and 1 Tim. 4:1. Nonetheless, one cannot blame Protestantism for the gross error of 'spiritual gifts' as the bastardization of Bible commenced in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries before the Reformation. The bastardized concept of 'spiritual gifts' was a carryover from the RCC into the Anglican church."

Again with your accusations and your sweeping statements that everyone who is not you is wrong. Sure...I would say that many different denominations have views that I do not agree with...but what is the main thing? What must all Christians believe to be Christians? Jesus...It's ALL about Jesus. God become man by virgin birth, lived a life we should have, but could not live, and then died in our place for our sins. He conquerored sin and death when He rose and He now is by His Father's side in heaven, and has sent us the Holy Spirit as helper, to empower us to live a life that is becoming more Christ-like. This, this is the center of the Christian faith, and despite what you think of several denominations many, many of them believe in and love Jesus.

Watchman_2 said:
"And, you show your Bible illiteracy as I have repeatedly proven that the Bible manuscripts do not state 'spiritual gifts' anywhere therein. Furthermore, you demonstrate more foolishness regarding your comment about the Trinity. No one of the historical othodox church and the church founders were 'inspired' by God in making such proclamation about the Trinity. The Apostles, themselves, never stated the word 'Trinity' anywhere in the NT, let alone define it as separate persons. Your error is glaring!"

I'm sorry, but you haven't proved anything except your own inflated belief that you're infallible. Sure, the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, but the concept is everywhere you look. Just pick up a dictionary of Theology and you'll see that man has made up words to fit a concept many times. You see, it's quicker to say 'Trinity' than 'God in three persons' every time you talk about it.
You say that the early church did not believe in the Trinity. lets look at some quotes from people who lived soon after Jesus died.

Irenaeus of Lyons, in Against Heresies III, 6 he goes into detail about his opinion of the incarnation. He says: Irenaeus certainly believed that Jesus Christ was fully God. Not "a god". Eternal God. No where does he suggest that Jesus had a different "existence" or essence from God the Father. Irenaeus did, when refuting different manifestations of Modalism, stress that Jesus was a different "person" from the Father, which is consistent with Trinitarian theology. However regarding their essence, he says in Against Heresies IV:5 So Christ is aptly termed God with the Father. In a practical sense, Irenaeus was Trinitarian, despite the fact that it had not been formally defined as dogma. Moreover, Irenaeus says that the name of God is applicable to both the Father and the Son. He says in Against Heresies III:6 that:

How about Tertullian? In Against Praexes, chapter 27 it opens up with the statement: He then goes on to refute the Modalist error that they were likewise the same "persons". It is in this context that Tertullian says that the Father was "distinct" from the Son. Likewise, when he says that the Son was "inferior" in the same chapter, he explains that it is with respect to the economy of salvation; that is, to their roles in Christ's incarnation. (11) The entire book Against Praexes is dedicated to explaining and defending the principle of "Unity in Trinity" (12) and how the three persons of the Godhead are One God in substance, yet three distinct persons.





There are so many other early church fathers that say much the same thing. And of course the Bible, where God clearly says that there is only 1 God. And then we see, all throughout the different persons of the Trinity in play...their specific tasks, and how the disciples all refer to all the members of the Trinity. You base your whole argument on the fact that the word 'Trinity' is not found in scripture or the early church. That is such a weak argument. If I wanted to call someone a moron, I suspect I would have no trouble describing them in that way, without using that specific word. People get so hung up on that word, but it's not about the word...it's about God, about who He is, about His nature. And the Bible clearly shows us that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God; that there is only one God, but clearly three persons acting together for the sake of humanity. Do you think the Father needed to send the Son or the Holy Spirit? No. Do you think Jesus had to come to die for us? No. Do you think the Holy Spirit needed to dwell within us, helping us daily? No. Our God, acting in these three persons, has done all these things because of love. We should be forever grateful, not sniping over a stupid word.


I know you will not believe...I'm not trying to convince you...it would be a waste of my time. But you call me stupid, foolish and ignorant. But quite clearly you either do not know everything (as you seem to claim), or you quite handily ignore anything you deem will not back up your own beliefs. Beliefs that boarder on heretical. And here I do not mean your need to do away with spiritual gifts, but your more worrying tendency to dismiss God's very nature.

I can see you have strong beliefs, I can see you believe them wholeheartedly. But your stubborn refusal to admit you could err...being human, leads to arrogance. Arrogance leads to hash criticism of everyone else, and an inability to learn, to hear if and what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach you. Please, take time alone with God, and pray earnestly and honestly that if you are in error that He may guide you and teach you.

Rach said:

Watchman_2 said:
'Since you don't know anything about Bible Truth yourself, how do you know who are and who are not a 'bible centered scholars'?? Since you claim to be employing proper hermeneutics, you should know that I have been correct all along here. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts.'

Since I don't know anything about Bible Truth?? Do you know me? Do you know of my faith? Do you know of my love? Do you know of my relationship with God? You slag around accusations that are based on nothing more than your own high opinion of yourself and your 'superior interpretation' of scripture. Shame on you. Being this aggressive towards those who disagree with you will do nothing but hurt many people and make them deaf to anything you say.

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See the parable of the 10 virgins [Mat. 25:1-12]. All ten had faith and love for Christ. Yet, half of them failed to be ready for Christ's return. Why?? They lacked knowledge [oil].

See Mat. 24:40-42. For every two doing the Lord's work [in the field or at the mill], the first half is taken by Satan. Why?? They lacked knowledge.

See Rev. 2, 3. There are 7 church types existing at the endtime with all having faith and love for Christ. Yet, only two of the seven are found by Christ to be without fault. Why?? The other 5 church types lacked knowledge.

Your personal faith and love for Christ, as measured by your own standards and not the Bible's standards, is not relevant to whether you will be ready for the bridegroom or will be the first taken by Satan. Only knowledge will ensure that one makes the first resurrection or not.

In fact, one could argue that many, who claim to have great faith and love but lack knowledge of the Word, do not really love Christ at all. Since Christ is the living Word of God, how could one love Christ and not bother to learn the Word??

You employ a typical tactic of denial in your baseless claim. It is not a matter of 'superior interpretation' at all; but, it is a matter of 'fact'. When you say that the Bible speaks of 'spritual gifts' when, in the Bible manuscripts, the clause does not even exist in 1 Cor. 12, 14, you simply prove that you have no knowledge of Bible Truth relative to the subject at hand.

Watchman_2 said:
'It seems to me that you are simply using your own prejudice [indoctrinated brainwashing] from the church you attend, and not the Word of God itself, to determine who is and who is not a scholar.'

And if I said that it was the Word of God I was getting my ideas from you would say; 'It's an erroneous interpretation...mine's correct', or 'I can correctly interpret scripture in it's original language...no one else can'. Nothing anyone can or will say will gain agreement from you. You say our 'mainstream' churches are false, that every scholar that came before you is false, that spiritual gifts (even when we see proofs of them in our daily life) don't exist, and that the Trinity is just a man made mistake (it is in fact a made man term to fit the true nature of God as He Himself has revealed to us through His own word). But of course we're wrong...hey maybe God Himself is wrong...maybe you would make a better god. It seems, after all, that you know better.

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It is obvious that you are indoctrinated [brainwashed] by your church and unlearned in this topic. In order to have any credibility in your claim, you would first have to acknowledge that the Bible manuscripts do not contain the clause 'spiritual gifts' therein 1 Cor. 12, 14. Your failure to acknowledge this fact only proves that you have not done your homework and are simply parroting the religious-hack indoctrination, which you accepted from your so-called 'scholars'.

I did not say 'mainstream' churches are false. If a church does not teach the Word of God, it is not a 'Church' at all. All churches that tout 'spiritual gifts' are false religions.

Regarding the Trinity, see Acts 1:4-5. God could not give us the 'gift' of the Holy Spirit unless God owned the Holy Spirit. The separate, but equal, theory you put forth is pure rubbish. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Spirit.

Watchman_2 said:
"Well, first of all, there is no such thing as a Pentecostal or Charismacostal bible scholar. If anyone within those sects were Bible scholars, they would no longer be Pentecostals or Charismacostals. Those false religions are part of the endtime apostasy spoken of in 2 Thes. 2 and 1 Tim. 4:1. Nonetheless, one cannot blame Protestantism for the gross error of 'spiritual gifts' as the bastardization of Bible commenced in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries before the Reformation. The bastardized concept of 'spiritual gifts' was a carryover from the RCC into the Anglican church."

Again with your accusations and your sweeping statements that everyone who is not you is wrong. Sure...I would say that many different denominations have views that I do not agree with...but what is the main thing? What must all Christians believe to be Christians? Jesus...It's ALL about Jesus. God become man by virgin birth, lived a life we should have, but could not live, and then died in our place for our sins. He conquerored sin and death when He rose and He now is by His Father's side in heaven, and has sent us the Holy Spirit as helper, to empower us to live a life that is becoming more Christ-like. This, this is the center of the Christian faith, and despite what you think of several denominations many, many of them believe in and love Jesus.

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See first reply herein above. Love for and faith in Christ does not guarantee that all will make the first resurrection.

Watchman_2 said:
"And, you show your Bible illiteracy as I have repeatedly proven that the Bible manuscripts do not state 'spiritual gifts' anywhere therein. Furthermore, you demonstrate more foolishness regarding your comment about the Trinity. No one of the historical othodox church and the church founders were 'inspired' by God in making such proclamation about the Trinity. The Apostles, themselves, never stated the word 'Trinity' anywhere in the NT, let alone define it as separate persons. Your error is glaring!"

I'm sorry, but you haven't proved anything except your own inflated belief that you're infallible. Sure, the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, but the concept is everywhere you look. Just pick up a dictionary of Theology and you'll see that man has made up words to fit a concept many times. You see, it's quicker to say 'Trinity' than 'God in three persons' every time you talk about it.
You say that the early church did not believe in the Trinity. lets look at some quotes from people who lived soon after Jesus died.

Irenaeus of Lyons, in Against Heresies III, 6 he goes into detail about his opinion of the incarnation. He says:

We have already shown from Scripture that not one of these sons of Adam is called "god" in the proper sense of the term, or named "lord". But that He (Jesus) is Himself, in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and Incarnate Word, proclaimed by the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself. (5)

​

Irenaeus certainly believed that Jesus Christ was fully God. Not "a god". Eternal God. No where does he suggest that Jesus had a different "existence" or essence from God the Father. Irenaeus did, when refuting different manifestations of Modalism, stress that Jesus was a different "person" from the Father, which is consistent with Trinitarian theology. However regarding their essence, he says in Against Heresies IV:5

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. (6)

​

So Christ is aptly termed God with the Father. In a practical sense, Irenaeus was Trinitarian, despite the fact that it had not been formally defined as dogma. Moreover, Irenaeus says that the name of God is applicable to both the Father and the Son. He says in Against Heresies III:6 that:

For the Spirit designates both (of them) by the name of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.




​

How about Tertullian? In Against Praexes, chapter 27 it opens up with the statement:

Bear in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. (10)

​

He then goes on to refute the Modalist error that they were likewise the same "persons". It is in this context that Tertullian says that the Father was "distinct" from the Son. Likewise, when he says that the Son was "inferior" in the same chapter, he explains that it is with respect to the economy of salvation; that is, to their roles in Christ's incarnation. (11) The entire book Against Praexes is dedicated to explaining and defending the principle of "Unity in Trinity" (12) and how the three persons of the Godhead are One God in substance, yet three distinct persons.

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Irenaeous and Tertullian were Bible hacks. Since they are not here for correction, I won't bother with their writings. See my second reply herein above. God owns the Holy Spirit.

There are so many other early church fathers that say much the same thing. And of course the Bible, where God clearly says that there is only 1 God. And then we see, all throughout the different persons of the Trinity in play...their specific tasks, and how the disciples all refer to all the members of the Trinity. You base your whole argument on the fact that the word 'Trinity' is not found in scripture or the early church. That is such a weak argument. If I wanted to call someone a moron, I suspect I would have no trouble describing them in that way, without using that specific word. People get so hung up on that word, but it's not about the word...it's about God, about who He is, about His nature. And the Bible clearly shows us that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God; that there is only one God, but clearly three persons acting together for the sake of humanity. Do you think the Father needed to send the Son or the Holy Spirit? No. Do you think Jesus had to come to die for us? No. Do you think the Holy Spirit needed to dwell within us, helping us daily? No. Our God, acting in these three persons, has done all these things because of love. We should be forever grateful, not sniping over a stupid word.

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I never said that I do not believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I only disagree with your effort to define the Trinity based upon the definition given by the religious hacks of old. I am happy with God's own answer given to Moses when Moses tried to define God. God's own answer was "I am that I am". That's good enough for me.

Watchman_2 said:
"Your personal faith and love for Christ, as measured by your own standards and not the Bible's standards, is not relevant to whether you will be ready for the bridegroom or will be the first taken by Satan. Only knowledge will ensure that one makes the first resurrection or not."

Really. Even if this were correct, how on earth can you claim to know my level of 'knowledge'? Oh, of course...everything I believe is false religion spewed to me by false hacks, therefore my 'knowledge' is only gullibility and stupidity. Here's a question. How many times did Jesus talk about knowledge, and how many times did He talk of love? Granted, people need to know who their loving. They need to read the Bible and see who their God really is. but as you label me 'brainwashed', 'ignorant' and 'foolish', I believe you to be arrogant and just plain wrong. You look down your nose and dismiss every single thing; be it a scholar or personal belief, as wrong. Even when somebody shows you something from scripture itself, you protect your beliefs by dismissing the translation. When someone points out the numerous scholars that put said translations together you dismiss those scholars as moron...of course you know better.

[13] So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13 ESV)

Does that say 'the greatest of these is knowledge'? It doesn't even mention knowledge. It doesn't say 'Love is important, but without knowledge it's useless'. That's your interpretation...and you're wrong.

[8:1] Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. [2] If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. [3] But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
(1 Corinthians 8:1-3 ESV)

Sounds fairly straight forward to me...oh but of course! This translation has to be wrong, doesn't it? Because you are clearly the best 'true' scholar the world has ever seen.

Watchman_2 said:
"It is obvious that you are indoctrinated [brainwashed] by your church and unlearned in this topic. In order to have any credibility in your claim, you would first have to acknowledge that the Bible manuscripts do not contain the clause 'spiritual gifts' therein 1 Cor. 12, 14. Your failure to acknowledge this fact only proves that you have not done your homework and are simply parroting the religious-hack indoctrination, which you accepted from your so-called 'scholars'. "

You claim that 'spiritual gifts' is not found in scripture. You're wrong.
Διώκετε τὴν ἀγάπην, ζηλοῦτε δὲ τὰ πνευματικά, μᾶλλον δὲ ἵνα προφητεύητε. I know you go on and on about what this means, but again, it's your interpretation against other....whom you love to call 'religious-hacks'. It's like you're staring in a one man against the whole world movie....with you the hero. The 'so called scholars' that I trust have a whole lot more keeping them honest. Their faith is true and anything they write/interpret is run by others who are honest and faithful as well. I know this because I check them out; I read them or listen to them and check out their doctrines. All I know of you is that you're arrogant, believe you're the greatest and only true scholar the world has ever seen, and that your interpretations of scripture seems to better fit your world view than what is actually said within the Bible.

Watchman_2 said:
I did not say 'mainstream' churches are false. If a church does not teach the Word of God, it is not a 'Church' at all. All churches that tout 'spiritual gifts' are false religions.

Pffft. According to you. You can jump up and down all you like; saying that gifts are or are not from the the Holy Spirit based on 'of'. but facts are the term 'spiritual gifts' does appear in scripture. You can claim that any church who talks of them is false, bur again, you'd be wrong.

Watchman_2 said:
"Regarding the Trinity, see Acts 1:4-5. God could not give us the 'gift' of the Holy Spirit unless God owned the Holy Spirit. The separate, but equal, theory you put forth is pure rubbish. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Spirit."

God also sent the Son.

[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)

And apparently the Spirit sent the Son somewhere too:

[12] The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness.
(Mark 1:12 ESV)

That's a whole lot of sending, by all of them. Does this mean that Jesus is less than both the Father and the Spirit? That Jesus is not God? So much for your theory.

Really, when it comes down to it, you're beliefs don't keep me up at night. I'm sorry that you're so mistaken. I'm sorry that you're missing so many wonderful things about our God, I'm sorry that your beliefs fit right in with so many of the 'christian cults' that believe they too are the only correct interpretation. I'm sorry that you are so convinced your thoughts are so much better than everyone else's, and that that gives you the right to call everyone stupid, ignorant and brainwashed.
Jesus is the only way to salvation...not knowledge of Jesus, but love of Him. Does this mean I stop learning about Him? No. But when the need for knowledge, the importance of knowledge precedes Love of Him, then you have sadly run off the track.

Rach said:

Watchman_2 said:
"Your personal faith and love for Christ, as measured by your own standards and not the Bible's standards, is not relevant to whether you will be ready for the bridegroom or will be the first taken by Satan. Only knowledge will ensure that one makes the first resurrection or not."

Really. Even if this were correct, how on earth can you claim to know my level of 'knowledge'? Oh, of course...everything I believe is false religion spewed to me by false hacks, therefore my 'knowledge' is only gullibility and stupidity. Here's a question. How many times did Jesus talk about knowledge, and how many times did He talk of love? Granted, people need to know who their loving. They need to read the Bible and see who their God really is. but as you label me 'brainwashed', 'ignorant' and 'foolish', I believe you to be arrogant and just plain wrong. You look down your nose and dismiss every single thing; be it a scholar or personal belief, as wrong. Even when somebody shows you something from scripture itself, you protect your beliefs by dismissing the translation. When someone points out the numerous scholars that put said translations together you dismiss those scholars as moron...of course you know better.

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A Bible student can easily determine that you have no knowledge regarding this topic as you reaffirmed this fact again with your claim that 'spiritual gifts' in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 exists in God's Word.

Watchman_2 said:
"It is obvious that you are indoctrinated [brainwashed] by your church and unlearned in this topic. In order to have any credibility in your claim, you would first have to acknowledge that the Bible manuscripts do not contain the clause 'spiritual gifts' therein 1 Cor. 12, 14. Your failure to acknowledge this fact only proves that you have not done your homework and are simply parroting the religious-hack indoctrination, which you accepted from your so-called 'scholars'. "

You claim that 'spiritual gifts' is not found in scripture. You're wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
​

Διώκετε τὴν ἀγάπην, ζηλοῦτε δὲ τὰ πνευματικά, μᾶλλον δὲ ἵνα προφητεύητε.

KJV with Strong's
Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts but rather that ye may prophesy​

I know you go on and on about what this means, but again, it's your interpretation against other....whom you love to call 'religious-hacks'. It's like you're staring in a one man against the whole world movie....with you the hero. The 'so called scholars' that I trust have a whole lot more keeping them honest. Their faith is true and anything they write/interpret is run by others who are honest and faithful as well. I know this because I check them out; I read them or listen to them and check out their doctrines. All I know of you is that you're arrogant, believe you're the greatest and only true scholar the world has ever seen, and that your interpretations of scripture seems to better fit your world view than what is actually said within the Bible.

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You may have a reading disability as I have repeatedly and factually stated that the clause 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in the Bible MANUSCRIPTS in 1 Cor. 12, 14. With each succeeding post, you continue to prove your lack of knowledge on this topic.

Even in the KJV, one can see that the word 'gifts' was added by the translators and was not within God's Word itself, as indicated by italics -

1Co 12:1​

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This can be confirmed when one checks the KJV with Strong's Concordance manuscript assigned numbers -

1Co 12:1​

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​

​

There is no Strong's number associated with the word 'gifts', which means that it does not exist in the Word of God for that scripture.

Your failure to grasp this fact is proof that you are unlearned and have no credibility.

Watchman_2 said:
I did not say 'mainstream' churches are false. If a church does not teach the Word of God, it is not a 'Church' at all. All churches that tout 'spiritual gifts' are false religions.

Pffft. According to you. You can jump up and down all you like; saying that gifts are or are not from the the Holy Spirit based on 'of'. but facts are the term 'spiritual gifts' does appear in scripture. You can claim that any church who talks of them is false, bur again, you'd be wrong.

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I would surmise that you will be apologizing for your blatant stupidity here. See my proof directly above.

Really, when it comes down to it, you're beliefs don't keep me up at night. I'm sorry that you're so mistaken. I'm sorry that you're missing so many wonderful things about our God, I'm sorry that your beliefs fit right in with so many of the 'christian cults' that believe they too are the only correct interpretation. I'm sorry that you are so convinced your thoughts are so much better than everyone else's, and that that gives you the right to call everyone stupid, ignorant and brainwashed.
Jesus is the only way to salvation...not knowledge of Jesus, but love of Him. Does this mean I stop learning about Him? No. But when the need for knowledge, the importance of knowledge precedes Love of Him, then you have sadly run off the track.

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It is always one's right to be willingly ignorant. You can choose to live in denial of your gross error if you wish.

You know Watchman_2, I really can't be bothered to continue arguing with you. Neither of us are getting anywhere and it's only leading to snarkyness.
You say
It is always one's right to be willingly ignorant. You can choose to live in denial of your gross error if you wish.


I say right back at you! I suspect only heaven will prove to the erroneous person who was in fact right. I feel sorry for you that you so obviously spend copious amounts of time scrolling through today's bible looking for errors. And in doing so you miss the spirit of the gospel, which is love. Love of and for Jesus, and love of others. Because it doesn't matter if 'spiritual gifts' actually exist or not, not really, that is only an interesting side conversation for Christians to have. The real point of the gospel is Jesus.
So I'm going to go and read my 'erroneous' bible, go to my 'false' Church and continue in my 'ignorant' love for my Saviour. And you know what? Despite what you think, I know that I will see Him soon...and that's all that matters.

Rach said:

You know Watchman_2, I really can't be bothered to continue arguing with you.

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Surely, even you are intelligent enough to know that you are wrong! The proof that I provided you is dispositive. That's why you go on to try to claim that it does not matter whether 'spiritual gifts' exists or not [another denial tactic]. Your denial tactics are merely further proof that, by now, you also know that 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in God's Word in 1 Cor. 12 and 14.

The only remaining question is whether you are Christian enough to acknowledge your error, to apologize for all of your disparaging comments to me, and to thank me for edifying you. If you are too pig-headed and arrogant to do perform your Christian duty here, then all of the viewers will know that you are a scorner of Truth [Pro. 9:8].

Neither of us are getting anywhere and it's only leading to snarkyness.

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You are the only one behaving inappropriately. Surely, it is fair of me to state that a person, who claims the existence of something that does not exist, to be acting stupidly. That person just happens to be you!

You say
It is always one's right to be willingly ignorant. You can choose to live in denial of your gross error if you wish.


I say right back at you! I suspect only heaven will prove to the erroneous person who was in fact right. I feel sorry for you that you so obviously spend copious amounts of time scrolling through today's bible looking for errors. And in doing so you miss the spirit of the gospel, which is love. Love of and for Jesus, and love of others. Because it doesn't matter if 'spiritual gifts' actually exist or not, not really, that is only an interesting side conversation for Christians to have. The real point of the gospel is Jesus.
So I'm going to go and read my 'erroneous' bible, go to my 'false' Church and continue in my 'ignorant' love for my Saviour. And you know what? Despite what you think, I know that I will see Him soon...and that's all that matters.

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You are not repentent at all. Shame on you! I proved you in error and all the viewers can see your ignorance!!

To an intelligent person, it does matter to know the fact that 'spiritual gifts' does not exist. An intelligent person would then know that all churches, which tout 'spritual gifts', are false religions. A serious Christian would want to be in a Christian church -- not a false religion like you.

But, as I always say, it is your right to be wrong. Only you can decide to dump your false religion and to join Christianity.

Watchman_2 said:

Even in the KJV, one can see that the word 'gifts' was added by the translators and was not within God's Word itself, as indicated by italics -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

​

This can be confirmed when one checks the KJV with Strong's Concordance manuscript assigned numbers -

1Co 12:1 NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152 gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50


​

There is no Strong's number associated with the word 'gifts', which means that it does not exist in the Word of God for that scripture.

Your failure to grasp this fact is proof that you are unlearned and have no credibility.



I would surmise that you will be apologizing for your blatant stupidity here.

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I'm afraid that the one who doesn't understand is you. You really should stop playing with Greek because you don't know what you're talking about. Just because a word doesn't have a Strong's number doesn't mean that it's not implied by the word that comes before it.

The Greek words found in your three examples above are pneumatikon, pneumatika, and pneumaton respectively. The first two are plural adjectives and the last is a plural noun. All three are literally translated 'sprituals.' This is not proper English so a word like 'things,' 'graces,' or 'gifts' must be added in order for the English reader to understand what is meant by the term 'spirituals.' There's even a list of these 'spirituals' in your 1 Cor. 12 example that Paul calls a 'manifestation of the spirit.'

Your strange denial of spiritual gifts just doesn't hold water. You really should leave Greek translation to those who know what they are doing and stop insulting people by telling them they're stupid and have no credibility because you're certainly no one to talk.

Watchman_2 said:

Surely, even you are intelligent enough to know that you are wrong! The proof that I provided you is dispositive. That's why you go on to try to claim that it does not matter whether 'spiritual gifts' exists or not [another denial tactic]. Your denial tactics are merely further proof that, by now, you also know that 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in God's Word in 1 Cor. 12 and 14.

The only remaining question is whether you are Christian enough to acknowledge your error, to apologize for all of your disparaging comments to me, and to thank me for edifying you. If you are too pig-headed and arrogant to do perform your Christian duty here, then all of the viewers will know that you are a scorner of Truth [Pro. 9:8].



You are the only one behaving inappropriately. Surely, it is fair of me to state that a person, who claims the existence of something that does not exist, to be acting stupidly. That person just happens to be you!



You are not repentent at all. Shame on you! I proved you in error and all the viewers can see your ignorance!!

To an intelligent person, it does matter to know the fact that 'spiritual gifts' does not exist. An intelligent person would then know that all churches, which tout 'spritual gifts', are false religions. A serious Christian would want to be in a Christian church -- not a false religion like you.

But, as I always say, it is your right to be wrong. Only you can decide to dump your false religion and to join Christianity.

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Dude...do you even read you?? I don't know if I have come across a ruder person.
Firstly, I am not wrong, so I'm hardly going to admit it....it's just your fantasy that I 'must'.
Secondly, I find spiritual gifts to be a secondary matter...one that doesn't determine our salvation....so I was actually trying to lessen the divide between us, by showing you that what really matters was Jesus. Not only did you ignore that, but you swept it aside and continued your verbal abuse. Shame on you.
Really, I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore, as I have already said. Not, as you would suppose, because I know you're right and am therefore slinking away in stupid refusal to acknowledge you're right. In actual fact I know you're wrong. Many people here have given you many biblical reasons you are wrong. But you slam them down, just as you did me, using insults and blatant bullheadedness to try and win your argument.
You see, winning is not everything to me, I only wanted to point out that any time you argue so viciously it should always end up pointing to Jesus. Every single thing in the bible, be it OT or NT, points to Jesus; the need of Him, the coming of Him, the sacrifice of Him and the love of Him.
Your arguments only point back to you being right and the whole world being wrong. So name yourself the king of knowledge if you will...without Jesus being your focus point it will only end in grief.

Rach said:

Dude...do you even read you?? I don't know if I have come across a ruder person.
Firstly, I am not wrong, so I'm hardly going to admit it....it's just your fantasy that I 'must'.
Secondly, I find spiritual gifts to be a secondary matter...one that doesn't determine our salvation....so I was actually trying to lessen the divide between us, by showing you that what really matters was Jesus. Not only did you ignore that, but you swept it aside and continued your verbal abuse. Shame on you.
Really, I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore, as I have already said. Not, as you would suppose, because I know you're right and am therefore slinking away in stupid refusal to acknowledge you're right. In actual fact I know you're wrong. Many people here have given you many biblical reasons you are wrong. But you slam them down, just as you did me, using insults and blatant bullheadedness to try and win your argument.
You see, winning is not everything to me, I only wanted to point out that any time you argue so viciously it should always end up pointing to Jesus. Every single thing in the bible, be it OT or NT, points to Jesus; the need of Him, the coming of Him, the sacrifice of Him and the love of Him.
Your arguments only point back to you being right and the whole world being wrong. So name yourself the king of knowledge if you will...without Jesus being your focus point it will only end in grief.

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It is simply a matter of fact or fiction. Either the clause 'spiritual gifts' exists or does not exist in the Bible manuscripts for 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12.

The word 'gifts' is rendered from the Greek charisma as shown in this scripture -

1Co 12:4​

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It is assigned the number G5486 in Strong's Concordance -

G5486
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From​

With this information at hand, all one has to do to verify whether or not 'spiritual gifts' exist in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 is to check the KJV to see if the Strong's G5486 is assigned to the word 'gifts'.

1Co 12:1​

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1Co 14:1​

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Hence, as anyone with an iota of intelligence can see, the word 'gifts' in these scriptures does not have the Strong's number G5486 associated therewith. The translators even did us the courtesy by italicizing the word 'gifs' to let us know that the word, itself, is not part of the Word of God. Accordingly, it is fact that 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in the Word of God in these 3 scriptures.

So, do you have an iota of intelligence or not??

You lose the argument each and every time! Most people live in the world of reality. In order to have any credibility, you first should acknowledge that you are in error.

Pro 9:8​

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If you were wise, you would be thanking me for proving to you that you are currently in a false religion, which touts 'spiritual gifts'. Instead, you live in denial and issue feckless and disparaging remarks. Surely, your actions are that of a scorner of the Word -- not of a Christian.