A blow by blow account of Revelation

[Jay Ross]

imo where Christ is revealed might be more pertinent; time seems to be a preoccupation with ppl reading the Rev?
this tells me that you believe John is talking about single events there in the Rev, right? Those are things that you believe will happen only at some point in the future, rather than symbols for events that will occur in the establishment of any elohim?

Have you missed my posts where I have said that the Seventh angel's bowl has already been poured out around 100 years ago and that some of the events associated with the sixth's angel's bowl being poured out has occurred over a long period of time, i.e. the symbolism of the River Euphrates drying up, while other portions of the associated events have only recently occur in my life time and they are still on going and are readily observable as the kings of the earth are being drawn to assemble for the Armageddon event.

Sadly, some of the so called leading lights of the understanding of the end time events have tried to pour cold water on this type of understanding. Maybe they are profiting or have profited in their understandings.

 

[Jay Ross]

esoteric? really? well ty for the heads up, i'll look for a better word

I look forward to you exercising your laughing matter and doing just that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Have you missed my posts where I have said that the Seventh angel's bowl has already been poured out around 100 years ago and that some of the events associated with the sixth's angel's bowl being poured out has occurred over a long period of time, i.e. the symbolism of the River Euphrates drying up, while other portions of the associated events have only recently occur in my life time and they are still on going and are readily observable as the kings of the earth are being drawn to assemble for the Armageddon event.

Sadly, some of the so called leading lights of the understanding of the end time events have tried to pour cold water on this type of understanding. Maybe they are profiting or have profited in their understandings.

"the Armageddon event" pretty much answers my Q i guess. Can't imagine who might be profiting from dissing the perspective, you wanna do a comparo, a 'follow the money' thing, and see? Prolly not, huh

So, there in Rev 16 whatever, 16 i guess, you might notice that that is not the kings of the Erets, as you say, and neither is it the kings of the Kosmos. Funny word being used there, v14 it is. Also how bout that setup, in v 15? Imo any time one reads or Quotes v16 they should include v15 with it.

while other portions of the associated events have only recently occur in my life time

as far as you know, maybe, but imo this is a dangerous assumption. Name the events that have only recently occurred, if you would, and let's see.

 

[Willie T]

hmm i would say keep an open mind there at least, maybe explore some other ways to read the Rev
i'm sure you are doing that in earnest bc that is what you have been shown though,
'that' being this 'crystal ball' application of the Rev

And one bit of reading that I would ONLY suggest to people who are really interested in learning, is David Chilton's great book, The Days of Vengeance. It is probably the most comprehensive coverage of the book of Revelation that has ever been printed.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sadly, some of the so called leading lights of the understanding of the end time events have tried to pour cold water on this type of understanding.

the one pretty much the whole world believes, you mean. i have to admit that i now agree with them prolly, but i don't have any proof or anything. The popular pov makes logical sense, and i guess repeating "when you find yourself agreeing with the herd" won't make much difference. You can find me espousing the amazing accuracy of Crowd Wisdom on another thread! ha!

7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

14For they are spirits of demons performing signs,ah who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble themai for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.aj
15“Look, I am coming like a thief. The one who is alert and remains clothedak,al so that he may not go around naked and people see his shameam is blessed.”an
16So they assembled them at the place called in Hebrew, Armagedon.


an apparent contradiction, might be some clues there too

 

[bbyrd009]

And one bit of reading that I would ONLY suggest to people who are really interested in learning, is David Chilton's great book, The Days of Vengeance. It is probably the most comprehensive coverage of the book of Revelation that has ever been printed.

can you quote some snips that stuck with you, that might characterize his pov? ty
https://archive.org/stream/DaysOfVengeance-DavidChilton/Days_of_Vengeance_David_Chilton_djvu.txt

 

[Willie T]

can you quote some snips that stuck with you, that might characterize his pov? ty
https://archive.org/stream/DaysOfVengeance-DavidChilton/Days_of_Vengeance_David_Chilton_djvu.txt

I guess the shortest and most striking is actually in the preface to the book:

PESSIMILLENNIALISM 71 A.D. — 1987 A.D.
“WE PREACHED DEFEAT, AND GOT IT!”

 

[Willie T]

There aren't many short, one-liner "zingers" in the book. But here is a simple wrap-up of the intent of the book:
"The charge brought by the Jewish prosecution in one first-century trial of Christians was that “they are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus” (Acts 17:7). This was the fundamental accusation against all the Christians of the Empire. The captain of police pleaded with the aged Bishop of Smyrna, St. Polycarp, to renounce this extreme position: “What harm is there in saying Caesar is Lord?” St. Polycarp refused, and was burned at the stake. Thousands suffered martyrdom on just this issue. For them, Jesus was not “God” in some upper-story, irrelevant sense; He was the only God, complete Sovereign in every area. No aspect of reality could be exempt from His demands. Nothing was neutral. The Church confronted Rome with the inflexible claim of Christ’s imperial authority: Jesus is the only-begotten Son; Jesus is God; Jesus is King; Jesus is Savior; Jesus is Lord. Here were two Empires, both attempting absolute world domination; and they were implacably at war.27"

"It was necessary for the churches of Asia to recognize this fully, with all its implications. Faith in Jesus Christ requires absolute submission to His Lordship, at every point, with no compromise. The confession of Christ meant conflict with statism, particularly in the provinces where official worship of Caesar was required for the transaction of everyday affairs. Failure to acknowledge the claims of the State would result in economic hardship and ruin, and often imprisonment, torture, and death."

"Some Christians attempted to compromise by drawing an unbiblical distinction between heart and conduct, as if one could have faith without works. But Christ’s Kingdom is universal: Jesus is Lord of all. To acknowledge Him truly as Lord, we must serve Him everywhere. This was the primary message of the Revelation to the Christians in Asia, and one they desperately needed to hear. They lived in the very heart of Satan’s throne, the seat of Emperor-worship; St. John wrote to remind them of their true King, of their position with Him as kings and priests, and of the necessity to persevere in terms of His sovereign Word."

 

[Willie T]

Some more intent of the book:

The Book of Revelation is part of the Bible. At first glance this may not seem to be a brilliant insight, but it is a point that is both crucially important and almost universally neglected in the actual practice of exposition. For as soon as we recognize that Revelation is a Biblical document, we are forced to ask a central question: What sort of book is the Bible? And the answer is this: The Bible is a book (The Book) about the Covenant. The Bible is not an Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge. Nor is it a collection of Moral Tales, or a series of personal-psychology studies of Great Heroes of Long Ago. The Bible is God’s written revelation of Himself, the story of His coming to us in the Mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ; and it is the story of the Church’s relationship to Him through the Covenant He has established with her.

The Covenant is the meaning of Biblical history (Biblical history is not primarily adventure stories). The Covenant is the meaning of Biblical law (the Bible is not primarily a political treatise about how to set up a Christian Republic). And the Covenant is the meaning of Biblical prophecy as well (thus, Biblical prophecy is not “prediction” in the occult sense of Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and Jean Dixon). To a man, the prophets were God’s legal emissaries to Israel and the nations, acting as prosecuting attorneys bringing what has become known among recent scholars as the “Covenant Lawsuit.”

That Biblical prophecy is not simply “prediction” is indicated, for example, by God’s statement through Jeremiah:

“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.”

“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will repent of the good with which I had promised to bless it.” (Jer. 18:7-10)

The purpose of prophecy is not “prediction,” but evaluation of man’s ethical response to God’s Word of command and promise. This is why Jonah’s prophecy about Nineveh did not “come true”: Nineveh repented of its wickedness, and the calamity was averted. Like the other Biblical writings, the Book of Revelation is a prophecy, with a specific covenantal orientation and reference. When the covenantal context of the prophecy is ignored, the message St. John sought to communicate is lost, and Revelation becomes nothing more than a vehicle for advancing the alleged expositor’s eschatological theories.

 

[Willie T]

Part of The Author's Preface:

Author’s Preface:

From the very beginning, cranks and crackpots have attempted to use Revelation to advocate some new twist on the Chicken Little Doctrine: The Sky is Falling! But, as I hope to show in this exposition, St. John’s Apocalypse teaches instead, that Christians will overcome all opposition through the work of Jesus Christ. My study has convinced me that a true understanding of this prophecy must be based on the proper application of five crucial interpretive keys:

1. Revelation is the most “Biblical” book in the Bible.
St. John quotes hundreds of passages from the Old Testament, often with subtle allusions to little-known religious rituals of the Hebrew people. In order to understand Revelation, we need to know our Bibles backward and forward. One reason why this commentary is so large is that I have tried to explain this extensive Biblical background, commenting on numerous portions of Scripture that shed light on St. John’s prophecy. I have also re-printed, as Appendix A, Philip Carrington’s excellent survey of the Levitical symbolism in Revelation.

2. Revelation has a system of symbolism.
Almost everyone recognizes that St. John wrote his message in symbols. But the meaning of those symbols is not up for grabs. There is a systematic structure in Biblical symbolism. In order to understand Revelation properly, we must become familiar with the “language” in which it is written. Among other goals, this commentary seeks to bring the Church at least a few steps closer to a truly Biblical Theology of Revelation.

3. Revelation is a prophecy about imminent events — events that were about to break loose on the world of the first century.

Revelation is not about nuclear warfare, space travel, or the end of the world. Again and again, it specifically warns that “the time is near!” St. John wrote his book as a prophecy of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, showing that Jesus Christ had brought the New Covenant and the New Creation. Revelation cannot be understood unless this fundamental fact is taken seriously.

4. Revelation is a worship service.
St. John did not write a textbook on prophecy. Instead, he recorded a heavenly worship service in progress. One of his major concerns, in fact, is that the worship of God is central to everything in life. It is the most important thing we do. For this reason, I have devoted special attention throughout this commentary to the very considerable liturgical aspects of Revelation, and their implications for our worship services today.

5. Revelation is a book about dominion.
Revelation is not a book about how terrible the Antichrist is, or how powerful the devil is. It is, as the very first verse says, The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It tells us about His lordship over all; it tells us about our salvation and victory in the New Covenant, God’s “wonderful plan for our life”; it tells us that the kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our God, and of His Christ; and it tells us that He and His people shall reign forever and ever.

 

[bbyrd009]

He and His people shall reign forever and ever.

wow i can argue with a post, but i can't come up with a single critique for any of this lol
ty (and archive), i'll give it a read!

 

[Willie T]

All his books (though long) are very interesting.

Also, along the same lines as this book is one by Kenneth L. Gentry (I believe it is) about the dating of the writing of The Revelation... Before Jerusalem Fell.

 

[Jay Ross]

I am so sorry but, in reading Chilton's chapter on Rev 16, he has presented an understanding that is his best guess of what has happened. After 2001, my understanding of revelations began to change as I saw other possible outcomes as expressed in the Book of Revelation.

I personally would not recommend this book to anyone as a source for understanding the Book of Revelations.

It is lost in the understandings of the past.

 

[Dcopymope]

I am so sorry but, in reading Chilton's chapter on Rev 16, he has presented an understanding that is his best guess of what has happened. After 2001, my understanding of revelations began to change as I saw other possible outcomes as expressed in the Book of Revelation.

I personally would not recommend this book to anyone as a source for understanding the Book of Revelations.

It is lost in the understandings of the past.

On what has happened or will happen? If its the former, then that about gives me reason to dismiss his understanding right from the jump because the seven vials judgement has yet to 'happen' to start with. What exactly is his account of Revelation 16?

 

[Jay Ross]

On what has happened or will happen? If its the former, then that about gives me reason to dismiss his understanding right from the jump because the seven vials judgement has yet to 'happen' to start with. What exactly is his account of Revelation 16?

Simply down load it and read it for yourself.

That is what I did.

I have certain proof texts that I know the answers to, and if any book which claims authority does not arrive at the same conclusions, I simply put the book down and walk out of the book shop without spending any money. This one certainly falls into that category.

 

[Willie T]

You base things on "Proof Texts" you have been told to follow?

 

[Jay Ross]

You base things on "Proof Texts" you have been told to follow?

Really WT, everybody uses their own proof texts, whether, they have found these proof texts for themselves or have accepted what others teach about certain texts and their understanding of that text, people use proof texts to determine the truth of what others write/post.

For my part, the proof texts are what I have come to understand through my own research.

 

[Willie T]

Really WT, everybody uses their own proof texts, whether, they have found these proof texts for themselves or have accepted what others teach about certain texts and their understanding of that text, people use proof texts to determine the truth of what others write/post.

For my part, the proof texts are what I have come to understand through my own research.

No, everyone doesn't. If you were only in your 20's or 30's, I could accept you possibly not knowing that just about any deception you choose can be "proven" by isolated texts found throughout the Bible. But you and I know that experience opens up the Bible, wider and wider — IF you read it — but only hardens you if you simply resort to standing on a little collection of limiting selected verses.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, everyone doesn't. If you were only in your 20's or 30's, I could accept you possibly not knowing that just about any deception you choose can be "proven" by isolated texts found throughout the Bible. But you and I know that experience opens up the Bible, wider and wider — IF you read it — but only hardens you if you simply resort to standing on a little collection of limiting selected verses.

WT, everybody uses their own proof texts to judge others by what they do, say and write. Some then respond, others just ignore, but it is based on their reference Mega Data which is part of the processing system that everybody uses, effectively, I might say, in some cases.

 

[Willie T]

WT, everybody uses their own proof texts to judge others by what they do, say and write. Some then respond, others just ignore, but it is based on their reference Mega Data which is part of the processing system that everybody uses, effectively, I might say, in some cases.

You used the term, "MEGA DATA." And, "Yes", I would agree with that. MEGA DATA = The compilation of the whole sum of the Bible... NOT some selected "Proof Texts" chosen from here and there.

If a person tried to use the selected text of Luke 14:26 the way the KJV words it, they would be stating a pure contradiction to the way Jesus told us treat our Fathers and Mothers. It takes far more than just a favorite text to grasp what the Bible has to say.

I absolutely DO use the meanings of the Bible to decide if what someone else writes is to be considered or rejected..... But never would I assume to just pick a verse or two to hang my full understandings on.