A blow by blow account of Revelation

[bbyrd009]

Please answer the question that I asked you, not something else.

kind of ironic after what you just did to me isn't it. i point out that you might want to check your tribe and you pose yourself as the Lone Fool, and me as stupid and ignorant. Would you like to test any of this?

A group who believes that Jesus is physically returning someday, boy, might take me awhile to find any of them huh

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not the one playing games

i gotta witness for him in this case wadr, i feel like i just finished a game of Twister!

 

[bbyrd009]

WADR, you might be right

now you are just lying to both of us Mr Ross, you do not believe this even a liddle bit, and i could quote you insisting otherwise ok. In the same post, no less

 

[Willie T]

My wife keeps on reminding me, all the time, "You are foolishly just trying to argue with a Spirit of Religion."

 

[Helen]

My wife keeps on reminding me, all the time, "You are foolishly just trying to argue with a Spirit of Religion."

And I posted that in a thread on here the other day.

 

[amadeus]

My wife keeps on reminding me, all the time, "You are foolishly just trying to argue with a Spirit of Religion."

But maybe you are not as foolish as some of us who never seem to learn. Once in a while someone is paying attention and they receive edification from you.

Give God the glory!

 

[Jay Ross]

i don't mean to say that i consider you the fool at all, regardless of your current understanding. i held the same pov for years, 30 years or something, and you might see that i have as much or really even more access to the "fool" designation, among the churched at least. It is perfectly natural and even advisable to seek out those who supposedly know stuff, if you want to learn the stuff; that's what i did too. If i have no understanding then i will be exposed soon enough i guess.

so i have to grant that you have removed yourself from one crowd, but should you find yourself in another, let's say, since i don't know you, you might want to consider. Revelations are personal experiences that do not require any outside change, right? Which is why the terms "appears, is revealed" are used for Christ, and not "returns, comes back" etc.

You cannot Quote "When Christ returns," imo that should bug you a little?
http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=when+Christ+returns

the moment you pick a fixed point you are lost, Mr Ross. i understand that leaving the camp will be hard, ok, and i'm certainly not asking you to do it for my sake. What you believe right now is just fine with me. i learned a lot from Messianic Jews myself. i attended Shemen Sasson, dunno if maybe you're fam with it or not

You have a very complicated way of explaining yourself.

My point of revelation came with a sense that the word "thousand" is a corruption of the phrase of "those hands" if said very fast can sound like the word "thousand." This changed my perspective with respect to "biblical time" concept, but it did not solve my time dilemma because are closed fists a zero or a one. Jewish culture seems to point to the fact that there is no zero concept in their understanding but rather they have a "none" concept.

As such, I have had to accept that I am no closer to solving the day/k years riddle. The timing of Isaac's birth with respect to when Adam was created might confirm my understanding of time and as such I have run with that POV.

Ussher, in his chronology of the Old Testament made the same mistake that @Enoch111 made in his understand of what Stephan said during his defence before he was stoned to death. Their defence is that Stephan spoke filled with the HS so therefore what he stated must be correct, but they forget that unless we are also filled with the HS our understanding of what Stephan said may result in a very different understanding and outcome.

The only starting point that we have is Adam's creation, but even then its relativity to the topography of the unfolding map of humanity is not firmly fixed with respect to the interplay between God's time frame of reference and man's time frame of reference. The relative errors is generated in our interpretation/understanding of God's recorded interplay with mankind. So when I say that I might see the end of this age if I live maybe another 30 or so years, then I must also accept that I may even have that number wrong because of the inherent story telling errors that exist within the historical biblical records within the scriptures.

But I am waffling on in this discourse and whether or not it results in good communication with you is debatable and depends your ability to come to the same understanding that I have while writing this post.

Shalom

PS: - this private discourse may seem to have nothing to do with the threads supposed topic, but the reality is that it has everything to do with the topic and we all need to re-access what our understandings are.

 

[Jay Ross]

My wife keeps on reminding me, all the time, "You are foolishly just trying to argue with a Spirit of Religion."

Is that a personal thing that you are doing or are you suggesting that there are others on this forum who you cannot have a discussion with because of their spirit of religion.

With that I certainly agree with.

But will WT answer my question and stop playing his games by posing other irrelevant questions.

 

[Willie T]

Is that a personal thing that you are doing or are you suggesting that there are others on this forum who you cannot have a discussion with because of their spirit of religion.

With that I certainly agree with.

But will WT answer my question and stop playing his games by posing other irrelevant questions.

Ask the question (whatever it was in your mind) plain and simple, and I will see if I can. That confused mess you tried to pass off as a question earlier was so convoluted that it seems no one had any idea what you were asking.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ask the question (whatever it was in your mind) plain and simple, and I will see if I can. That confused mess you tried to pass off as a question earlier was so convoluted that it seems no one had any idea what you were asking.

You have more wriggles and squirms than any one else that I know. It seems to me that you cannot answer the simple question that I asked and are looking for any excuse not to. If @Enoch111 could understand my question, then why do I have to keep repeating myself.

Your request tells me that you have no intentions of answering the question, so I will help you out. The answer can be found in the following Biblical passages: -

Genesis 9:28-29: - 28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29 So all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.

Genesis 11:10-26: - 10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood. 11 After he begot Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.

12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah. 13 After he begot Salah, Arphaxad lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters.

14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber. 15 After he begot Eber, Salah lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters.

16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg. 17 After he begot Peleg, Eber lived four hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters.

18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu. 19 After he begot Reu, Peleg lived two hundred and nine years, and begot sons and daughters.

20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug. 21 After he begot Serug, Reu lived two hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters.

22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor. 23 After he begot Nahor, Serug lived two hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.

24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and begot Terah. 25 After he begot Terah, Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years, and begot sons and daughters.

26 Now Terah lived seventy years, and begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Genesis 12:4: - 4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

A clue is that Abraham was around 59 years old when the "Father" of Abraham, that Stephen was referring to died.

Oh, another clue is that he was very old when he died.

Now you can do some leg work and improve your personal Mega Data.

 

[Willie T]

How childish. I even told you what Abraham's father did for a living.

 

[Jay Ross]

How childish. I even told you what Abraham's father did for a living.

WT even I know that, I have done my research in this area, and have read the ancient books that also record these events.

All you have to do is simple give me the name of the Father of Abraham, that Stephan was referring to, so please stop playing your childish games and grow up and just simply answer the question of you that I posed. Otherwise, well we will see.

Oh I get it I am your sport for baiting. What a base fellow you are.

 

[Helen]

@Willie T

"Jay Ross,WT even I know that, I have done my research in this area, and have read the ancient books that also record these events.

All you have to do is simple give me the name of the Father of Abraham, that Stephan was referring to, so please stop playing your childish games and grow up and just simply answer the question of you that I posed. Otherwise, well we will see.
[/QUOTE]

This is stupid. Willie
He is just playing you... Don't you hate people who love to pretend that they are so much wiser than anyone else.
You don't "have to do" ...anything.
Why does he say that you "have to" tell him anything.

It's all just stupid...if he knows something then say just so...
Why does he feel that he is superior by "knowing secrets"..
That is pathetic...like a school kid.
Chanting, "ya,ya,ya, I know something you don't know."

 

[Enoch111]

Ussher, in his chronology of the Old Testament made the same mistake that @Enoch111 made in his understand of what Stephan said during his defence before he was stoned to death. Their defence is that Stephan spoke filled with the HS so therefore what he stated must be correct, but they forget that unless we are also filled with the HS our understanding of what Stephan said may result in a very different understanding and outcome.

Since Stephen (not Stephan) had an excellent grasp of the history of his people, I believe we should take his words over yours: Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

The problem -- and seeming discrepancy -- lies in how we read Genesis 11:26,27 -- And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

On the surface it looks as though Abram, Nahor, and Haran were all born in the same year -- when Terah was 70 years old. But it is highly unlikely that they were triplets. So what this verse is really saying is that Terah had children AFTER LIVING for 70 years.

So if Abram was 75 when he left Haran (at the time of his father's death), and Terah died when he was 205, it could easily mean that Terah had Abram when he was 130 years old. Well know commentator John Gill arrived at this conclusion also:

"Abram, though named first, does not appear to be the eldest, but rather Haran; nay, it seems pretty plain that Abram was not born until the one hundred and thirtieth year of his father's life, for Terah was two hundred and five years old when he died, ( Genesis 11:32 ) and Abram was but seventy five years of age when he went out of Haran to Canaan, ( Genesis 12:4 ) and that was as soon as his father died there; and so that if seventy five are taken out two hundred and five, there will remain one hundred and thirty, in which year and not before Abram must be born: the wife of Terah, of whom Abram was born, according to the Jewish writers, her name was Chamtelaah, the daughter of Carnebo, or as others call her, Amthalai...:

When you compare the wording for the genealogy of the other patriarchs, it is different from how the genealogy of Terah is presented. Let's take the example of Nahor the father of Terah: And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah: And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.

First the age at which he had a son, then the number of years after that until he died. But it is quite different for Terah.

 

[Willie T]

@Willie T

"Jay Ross,WT even I know that, I have done my research in this area, and have read the ancient books that also record these events.

All you have to do is simple give me the name of the Father of Abraham, that Stephan was referring to, so please stop playing your childish games and grow up and just simply answer the question of you that I posed. Otherwise, well we will see.

This is stupid. Willie
He is just playing you... Don't you hate people who love to pretend that they are so much wiser than anyone else.
You don't "have to do" ...anything.
Why does he say that you "have to" tell him anything.

It's all just stupid...if he knows something then say just so...
Why does he feel that he is superior by "knowing secrets"..
That is pathetic...like a school kid.
Chanting, "ya,ya,ya, I know something you don't know."

Well, he foolishly thinks that I said MEGA DATA meant that you had to know all the Bible. When what I said was that we should make decisions on everything we do know about God and the Bible... NOT just on selected "Proof Verses" as he said he does. So, he took that as a challenge that I claimed I know all the Bible... and he was trying to prove me ignorant by seeing if I knew Abe's father's name.

As you said, we all know who he was... learned it at about age ten.

 

[Dcopymope]

I just wanted to give my two cents on Revelation and move on. I really wasn't expecting this thread to get this much attention.

 

[Helen]

Well, he foolishly thinks that I said MEGA DATA meant that you had to know all the Bible. When what I said was that we should make decisions on everything we do know about God and the Bible... NOT just on selected "Proof Verses" as he said he does. So, he took that as a challenge that I claimed I know all the Bible... and he was trying to prove me ignorant by seeing if I knew Abe's father's name.

As you said, we all know who he was... learned it at about age ten.

Oh okay ..got it...I couldn't see the history of the silly argument.

Strange...haha! So, who IS winning this game?
And who has proved what?

 

[Willie T]

Oh okay ..got it...I couldn't see the history of the silly argument.

Strange...haha! So, who IS winning this game?
And who has proved what?

I have no idea how he scores things. (But, I do have to admit that these foolish games do surprise me at how much of those years of schooling I have worked hard to forget, still comes back to memory.)

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh okay ..got it...I couldn't see the history of the silly argument.

Hi

ByGrace,

I have not hidden anything. If you look at my last post, the answer to my question is summarised in the graphical attachment. It shows the patriarch that died around 15 years before Abraham left Haran to go down to the Land of Canaan, was Noah.

I had also presented why I had dismissed Terah as the answer and provided the rational as to why this was so. Genesis 22:20-24, from my understanding, provides the best clue to confirm that Terah died 60 years after Abraham had left Haran. Also, Abraham, if the Book of Jasher is an indication, probably spent around 25 years establishing himself, his flock and his household before leaving Haran after arriving from Ur.

Now if Stephen is correct, then God spoke with Abraham before he had left Ur, when he was possibly around 50 years of age. Also, the Book of Jasher suggests that Terah had secreted Abraham away with Noah to keep him alive after he was born, because, as the story goes in the Book of Jasher, Nimrod wanted to have him killed because of the "signs" seen in the heavens.

Sadly, the Bible's Genesis record is silent on these "facts," but back when Genesis was written, The Book of Jasher was a readily available source for the Israelites to fill in the gaps. It is mentioned in the Book of Joshua as the source which informed Joshua that their fore fathers worshipped idols, which WT mentioned in his posts.

Sadly, this to and fro saga between WT and myself came about because I had critiqued a book that he had suggested was a valuable reference to use to understand the Book of Revelation.

I had said that I had checked out what was written with respect to a number of Proof Texts that I use to see if the Book is worth reading or not. Because the author had failed in the book with respect to my proof texts, I stated that I could not recommend the Book at all.

WT then started to use false argumentative techniques to “put down” what I had presented and in doing so questioned my beliefs by suggesting that all of my belief system is based on a few select texts.

So, I asked if WT knew who Stephen was referring to as Abraham’s "father," when Stephen said that Abraham had left Haran after his "father" had died.

Jesus used the word father(s) in the same context when He said: - Matt 23:29-30: - 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'

Jesus was referring to their fore fathers, in this context and not to their immediate fathers.

I asked WT a simple question that, if as He claimed, he used all of the bible knowledge to critique a post, then he would have known the answer to my question. However, he pointed to other trivial areas to avoid answering the question which was really based on the cultural traditions of Jesus’ and Stephen’s day, with respect to their father(s).

WT may be knowledgeable, but with respect, I find that he is also a source of miss information.

I to learnt, as a child, just like WT, the Patriarchal table and in that list Terah is given as Abraham’s father. That I had no dispute with, but if we accept that is who Stephen was talking about, then we have to dismiss Genesis 11 because it is unquestionably not in agreement with Acts 7 if this is this case.

I would recommend that you start at page 3 and post 44 by WT to establish what the thrust of our disagreement is.

If WT had simply answered my question asked in post 61 with either Noah or Terah then the discussion could have moved on and returned to the topic as outlined in the OP. I could have then also posted the above to explain why it was so.

From the gist of what WT has already posted above, I believe he would have said Terah, to which I would have then provided the answer and the context of the question in response to his post answering the question.

From WT’s posts, I have come to the view that he is dishonest in what he posts and is well practiced in using false arguments in his posts.

I hope that this helps and that the attachment provided with my previous post, gives a pictorial perspective of the timeline around when Abraham was called by God for you.

Shalom

 

[Helen]

Thank you for your overview of the linage. I'd never heard any of that. Neither read those other books.

Well it was my bad for coming into the thread half way though and not understanding what you two were arguing about!!
It just came across as if you knew something that Willie didn't and were reluctant to tell him what the answer was.
But I agree, I had not started from the beginning of this thread.

Bless you both. Helen.