veteran
New Member
I think what our Lord Jesus said is required compared with what His Apostles also said is pretty black and white. Belief on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ is always a requirement. If we 'stay' on Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit and in Faith, striving to walk by The Spirit and asking forgiveness when we mess up, then we are counted as 'perfect', even though we never can attain real perfection in this life.evangelist-7 said:IMO, there is a lot of tricky stuff going on in the NT.
John 3:16, etc. simply says to only believe and you're saved.
Other passages definitely say one can lose salvation.
In Matthew 5, we have the Beatitudes where Jesus warns against ...
anger (murder), looking (adultery), divorce, oaths, not going the second mile, not loving your enemies.
Immediately next, He says, "you shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
I.E. If you do all of the good stuff I just mentioned, you'll be perfect.
But He's not saying when you're finally in heaven you'll be perfect.
Unless He's playing word games!
Related ... Ever notice that Paul often mixes strong warnings with soothing exhortation?
IMO, most spiritual Truths are "somewhat hidden" and must be revealed spiritually.
I.E. When you have 2 supposedly conflicting groups of verses.
Not too long ago, I started a thread on this.
That's one of the things Holy Communion is to help accomplish with our walk; it's a time of introspection of our selves while in holy communion with Him. The bread and wine are outward symbols of His Sacrifice for us to remember until He comes, but one of the other main reasons for Communion is to join with Him in Spirit and prayer, repentance and asking forgiveness, and with Him work out problems that need fixing.
I think where many get confused is with the expression of having been 'saved'. In Acts 2 Peter says to repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and by that one would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Notice he didn't say that meant one is officially 'saved' at that point, even though it is a requirement of being 'saved'. Same idea in Acts 10:43.
Rom 6:1-23
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The act of our Faith and being baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ means being baptized into His death, becoming dead to sin by... walking in newness of life. Does that mean it's OK to walk in the same old life of sin we had before that? No.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is not just philosophical speech by Apostle Paul. In the next verses he declares how we are to reckon ourselves to be dead from sin.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
That means while we are here during this present world, we are still able to allow sin to reign in our flesh bodies. Even though our Lord Jesus defeated death on the cross for us, we still have to overcome sin through Him until our flesh dies, or until His future coming.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
What Apostle Paul says there is the direct opposite of the 'once saved, always saved' doctrines of men. If we yeild ourselves to sin, then we become the servants of sin and not servants of Christ Jesus. He's making it obvious there's a condition to overcome through Christ that still exists, even after having believed and baptized. Our Lord Jesus has made it easier for us to overcome by the gift of The Holy Spirit and through future repentance to Him like Apostle John taught in 1 John 1.
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Is Paul admonishing them only for coming to Christ there? Not that only, but also... how they left those old ways which they now became ashamed of (Holy Spirit working in them to produce conviction of the heart and impart understanding). In 1 Cor.5, Paul ordered a member in the Church at Corinth to be cast out from them because of having sexual intercourse with his own mother. Later in 1 Corinthians there's somewhat to show that member being brought back in and forgiven for the sin. But Paul's judgment he first declared upon that one should be an eye opener, for he said to cast that one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his spirit might be saved in the day of Christ (i.e., day of the Lord, Christ's future Milennium reign).
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)
So while our Lord Jesus promised us His Salvation, like in John 3, He also attached what kind of relationship and life we live with Him to it in more of His teaching elsewhere in The Gospel Books. We have to weigh and understand all that together, and not do a chop and select like men's traditions often do.
It should really be easy to understand why men's traditions like to preach the idea that once we believe on Christ Jesus and baptized that's it, that we can then live in total disregard to sin. Who wouldn't want the free gift with no longer having to check their self in regard to sin? That kind of attitude is not Biblical, and it reminds me of some of the old Roman Church traditions of telling believers they can pay money to keep out of purgatory after they die. It's those kind of attitudes that our Lord Jesus was talking about within Scripture like Matthew 7:21-27. And that's the kind of attitude going on in some Churches today who preach the once saved, always saved doctrines of men. They have works in Christ Jesus, while teaching the believer is totally free from any sin. In a round-about way that is like teaching it's OK to do iniquity, since they have the idea there is no more sin the believer need be concerned about in their lives. That's why He included the idea of iniquity guilt against those in that Matt.7:21-27 Message.