And...God didn't say...

[Truth]

When we read of Noah and the flood, God says that “every thought of man’s heart was only evil continually,” and that “the earth was filled with violence, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.”
If not before, wouldn’t this be the ideal time to reveal eternal torment ahead for nearly all inhabitants of the earth?
If any circumstances warranted such punishment, this would be the time, would it not? However, Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” didn’t threaten endless punishment to evildoers!
If warnings of such punishment serve to turn man aside from his evil way, surely this would have been the time to have revealed it, but there’s not one whisper of it.
Instead, they were destroyed by the flood, a physical, tangible punishment for their sin, with absolutely no warning of endless torment.
Nor was there such a warning when mankind inhabited the earth again after the flood. One word from God might have set the world on an entirely different course. Surprisingly no such word was given.

WELL, I mentioned on a different thread about needing OP's that tweaked our brains, and provoked thought about thing that we would not normally think about, or ever gave any thought too! and then there was this Lady [BG] who said that she would like to start a thread that didn't fizzle out!!!!!!!!!! Well this has started exactly what I mentioned, for me at least!!
Wow I like this. Now I have to do some work, Thank You [BG]
I just went back to the OP, March 3 2018 I missed this one!?!?

 

[Helen]

Now I have to do some work, Thank You [BG]
I just went back to the OP, March 3 2018 I missed this one!?!?

Happy studies.

I never try to persuade anyone else...I just post what I believe and where I stand, and what I believe God has shown me over the years.

Bless you...Helen

 

[Enoch111]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

God did not have to mention it. Adam was simply told that the day he disobeyed he would SURELY die. And clearly Adam passed this injunction on to Eve.

That should have been enough to stop them in their tracks. In fact they had absolutely no reason nor excuse to disobey God.

No one should use this as an excuse to deny the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in the Lake for Fire for the unrighteous. Christ clearly preached and taught this doctrine, and that is all that really matters at this point.

 

[Truth]

God did not have to mention it. Adam was simply told that the day he disobeyed he would SURELY die. And clearly Adam passed this injunction on to Eve.

That should have been enough to stop them in their tracks. In fact they had absolutely no reason nor excuse to disobey God.

No one should use this as an excuse to deny the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in the Lake for Fire for the unrighteous. Christ clearly preached and taught this doctrine, and that is all that really matters at this point.

I am going to step in if that's Ok! My early understanding of an Excuse is!! Fig Leaf's, and in the OP there was no mention of Excuses, only the Lack of any mention of the lake of fire and eternal judgment written in the Word's of God! A day is as a thousand tear's, and a thousand years is as a Day, SOOO both Adam and Eve did die in that DAY! we will never know all that God think's or perceives, we are not able to contain one of His simple thought's.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

No, I was just busy at work and at home. But you might check out: Worthy Christian Forums

Thanks, I am participating. Joined in 2011, but posted almost nothing until recently. Started thread, 'Translations i made', but scarcely any discussion has followed.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If you have read all the posts on this thread then you already know where I stand.
And then you already know that I do not believe in "eternal torment".

Thinking of hell physically, the body fat of the wicked alone must be enough to keep it burning forever. But that's nothing compared with the unforgiven iniquities combustible in its time.

 

[bbyrd009]

if you dig a pit for someone else, you end up in it yourself i guess

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

"I know that most men can seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed — conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives." Tolstoy

I hope everybody on this forum read

 

[Enoch111]

Acts 3.21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

This would apply to the time after the New Heavens and the New Earth have been established IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. It says nothing about the existence of the Lake of Fire in "outer darkness" (at the same time) so that all that is unholy and ungodly remains confined in that place of eternal torment.

Romans 5-10 " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

And to whom is this addressed? Is it not to believers? Does this have anything to say to those who reject the Gospel and reject Christ? This passage does not address the existence of the Lake of Fire.

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that Universalism is true, but that is false, and a lie of the Devil. Here is what Scripture says:

And he [Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16: 15,16)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jn 3:36)

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it not to believers?

well, it does say "enemies."

 

[Enoch111]

well, it does say "enemies."

Actually it means enemies who were enemies before they were reconciled. Which means that the enmity was no longer there. The epistle was addressed to children of God, beloved of God -- saints.

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints (Rom 1:7)

You will note in the KJB that "to be" is in italics, meaning that it was inserted (rightly or wrongly) by the translators. But the actual Greek says κλητοῖς ἁγίοις (called saints). So God calls His children "saints" as soon as He saves them, having sanctified them by the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which further reinforces the fact that the enmity does not exist.

But this does NOT apply to those who are outside of Christ. God makes a distinction between the saved and the unsaved, and those who fail to obey the Gospel do face eternal damnation.

 

[bbyrd009]

But this does NOT apply to those who are outside of Christ.

who says? Let's read it again:
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

reads to me like the 'enemies' were reconciled by the death, not by making any profession?

But this does NOT apply to those who are outside of Christ.

"when we were enemies, we were reconciled by His death"

are we reading the same passage?

God makes a distinction between the saved and the unsaved

mmm, i gotta tell ya, it's only been ppl i've seen do that so far wadr. Wasps, to be specific.

i'd like to suggest that anyone who claims they are saved has been deceived, and does not understand salvation; they have merely paid good money to get reassurances that their teacher cannot stand behind, and can only Quote from Scripture if they are uncontested, or speaking to the ignorant.

Salvation is not an on/off switch that gets thrown after an altar profession imo, and this language you use makes it obvious that someone must be the judge/arbiter of these terms that we are using, right. Who is this arbiter?

iow who defines this "saved," being as how Scripture is not being used; or rather, being misused, certain passages omitted to shoehorn the definition? No consideration of "hope of salvation" at all, etc

 

[Philip James]

Salvation is not an on/off switch that gets thrown after an altar profession imo, and this language you use makes it obvious that someone must be the judge/arbiter of these terms that we are using, right. Who is this arbiter?

I was redeemed the day my Lord Jesus died for me, i am being saved as the Spirit molds me and conforms me into HIS likeness, i will be saved if , by HIS grace, i persevere and finish the course...

Peace!

 

[Helen]

Let's read it again:
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

reads to me like the 'enemies' were reconciled by the death, not by making any profession?

Yay! and Amen!!
It seems when they somehow don't like " when we were enemies"

I often wonder which part of the Love of God they object to!!

....H

 

[bbyrd009]

Yay! and Amen!!
It seems when they somehow don't like " when we were enemies"

I often wonder which part of the Love of God they object to!!

....H

this is what led me to all that "dialectic" jazz; we were all raised on the Hegelian Dialectic. Although hardly anyone knows the term, we are intimately familiar with its rules. Paul even trashes it in his (brilliant) discourse on running races, in such a way that those who still operate under it can continue to interpret an implied winner and loser as a good thing if they like.

We are actually invited to make value judgements based upon poor values or bad definitions of Scripture imo, and having been raised with that as an MO that is just what we naturally do i guess. A defense mechanism or something. In order for "us" to be the greatest there has to be a "them" who is not, right. Ppl naturally gravitate toward a "we," not realizing that they exclude a "they" in the process, seems like

 

[Helen]

this is what led me to all that "dialectic" jazz; we were all raised on the Hegelian Dialectic. Although hardly anyone knows the term, we are intimately familiar with its rules. Paul even trashes it in his (brilliant) discourse on running races, in such a way that those who still operate under it can continue to interpret an implied winner and loser as a good thing if they like.

We are actually invited to make value judgements based upon poor values or bad definitions of Scripture imo, and having been raised with that as an MO that is just what we naturally do i guess. A defense mechanism or something. In order for "us" to be the greatest there has to be a "them" who is not, right. Ppl naturally gravitate toward a "we," not realizing that they exclude a "they" in the process, seems like

Well Mark.
I have to sadly admit. That I am by no means smart so I wont even pretend that I understood everything that you said here. ( the dialect thing..I tried to understand it in your thread, but it slips out of my hand)
But I got the gist of your post...and I'm sure if I understood better I would agree with all you wrote.

I am pretty sure God gave me a smaller brain than he gave to some other people...you were ahead of the line!
Although younger in earth years, I'm talking before the creation of the world!

Or maybe , as I age , which seems to be more rapidly these days...the old brain cells die off or something. lol

I don't know much....but the one thing I am sure of is God's love, and His desire to see us all make it..
He is more than willing to to take our hand if we ask Him...and to get us to the finish line.
I believe if He see even the glimmer of desire in a persons heart...He will leap into their lives to help , encourage , and give strength.

 

[bbyrd009]

I have to sadly admit. That I am by no means smart so I wont even pretend that I understood everything that you said here. ( the dialect thing..I tried to understand it in your thread, but it slips out of my hand)
But I got the gist of your post...and I'm sure if I understood better I would agree with all you wrote.

well as i say you may not know what "Hegelian Dialectic" means, but you do intimately understand an implied winner and loser in every transaction, as a child it manifests as "he got one and i didn't; that isn't fair," or even "do this for me and i'll do that for you," a more "adult" manifestation...and we do this for "friends," this is how we attempt to mitigate an implied "loser" in a transaction, rather than just doing a service for someone.

Go out and try to serve a friend of yours today, and see what happens lol; they gonna be offering you money or this or that, they usually won't even be comfortable with you doing them a "favor," we call it. Find a friend who considers themselves the most "saved" if you like, and see if there is any difference.

Serve an "enemy" and you change the world though. This is why a man's enemies will be those of his own household
i guess

 

[Helen]

Good post @bbyrd009 wise words and true.

 

[Ac28]

I seem to remember reading or hearing that the "lake of fire", which appears only in Revelation (5 times), is a Jewish idiom symbolizing total destruction.

 

[Willie T]

I seem to remember reading or hearing that the "lake of fire", which appears only in Revelation (5 times), is a Jewish idiom symbolizing total destruction.

Well, the Jews DID believe in annihilation.