Antinomianism (faith without works): Where Cognitive Dissonance Lives

[Dave L]

I've read the Fourth commandment many times and the only thing I see in there about how to keep it holy is that we are not to do any routine work - emergency ox-in-ditch extractions are allowed.

So, any person who has to be told to lay off from heading into the office, mowing the lawn, washing the car, etc., and just spend this one day a week drawing close to God in a manner which is prevented by the preoccupations of work on the other six days, is probably not in love with God.

You must use the OT commentary on sabbath keeping to keep it as God meant. No heat or cooking on Saturday plus much more. = death for violating.

 

[Dave L]

How is writing the Ten Commandments on our heart "removing" them? To the contrary, it means that they are now more a part of us than ever. Sure, no one has to be told about stealing or murder, but what about the seventh day Sabbath? Seems everyone is breaking that one and coming up with ever single lame excuse for doing so. The Sabbath is just as much obligatory now as it was when God made it in the garden of Eden.

We do not have the Ten Commandments written in our heart. We have the two great commandments of Love for God and people just as Abraham had.

 

[Phoneman777]

No you are just another SDA trying to push your SDA beliefs onto us just as the RC's do. Funny thing is for all you bashing the RC church, your religion is no better, just another daughter of the great whore, it is not Christ you are being obedient to, it is your religion, just like teh RC's.

No no, I'm correct that your post #33 is an unconscious betrayal of your thoughts which reveals that you believe a relationship with God excludes the idea of total surrender to Him: that God is merely your "assistant" or "co-worker" there to "help" you in your own efforts by which you know cannot possibly measure up...so you concoct a religion that does away with the standard - God's law - by which you are to be measured and backfill the hole with a false concept of grace.

A true relationship with God is built on our assent that He is our Divine Master and we are helpless slave recipients of His divine, infinite sacrificial love which saved us from our sin, and henceforth we serve Him in total surrender of every thought, word, and deed for every moment of the rest of all eternity, for He alone is worthy.

Do you see what I did there? I showed you how total surrender or lack thereof determines what we think of God's law. I choose total surrender.

 

[Phoneman777]

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is not our works that save us...it is God in his mercy. We are not our own workmanship, we are his. Also I believe it is important to look to when we were saved...even when we were dead in our transgressions. And why? So that in the ages to come he might show his grace in kindness.

I wrote this earlier, and although it is not exactly the conversation here it has a similar tenor to it.

"There are many in the academic realm that have great knowledge concerning the gospel and all the greater intricacies surrounding it. They have vast knowledge of the history of the people to whom the gospel first came. They know the unfolding of the story of the church that fostered and shared the gospel. They likely even know many who have been greatly impacted and live in and through the gospel. Yet they themselves have not been moved emotionally by the gospel. They have not allowed the truth and gravity of this blessed message to transverse the twelve-inch path from head to heart. Such are in a sad state of affairs, one of a hardened heart. Here they have a complete cognitive experience with the gospel, yet they are not apt to embrace the life that accompanies this gospel. They have no regard for the Lord of the gospel, and they are not so moved by the Spirit as to hold it dear.

The hindrance of such a terrible condition is so desperate of a state. It is like having a carrot dangling before the nose of a beast without the beast ever being able to taste it. It is a matter of having faith in ones own intelligence over having faith in the one who gave them intelligence. The knowledge they posses is cold and lifeless and is nothing more than an academic exercise. Such is not a saving knowledge. Similar to the demons knowing that God is one, academics can know the dogma of the gospel without ever obtaining the blessed life of faith.

The accompanying flood of emotion that is ushered in from allowing the message of the gospel to penetrate the heart is life changing. It is this life change that is an evidence of a true faith. True religion, true faith is a pairing of cognitive experience and emotional experience. Without question one without the other is simply deficient. The two are in an eternal symbiotic dance culminating in a true religion that is empowered by a true faith. With man being stirred by his affections he leaps into action expressing the greatest state of the human experience, love. This champion of the emotions, love, is the expression that is not to be slighted when it comes to salvation. If love is not an intrinsic outpouring coupled with the cognitive information, then the faith and religion must stand questioned."

In this what I postulate is not a faith that is an adherence to a set of laws, for if the law could save there would be no need for the Christ. Yet it is a condition of the heart that must be addressed. This is not something we can do on our own, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. Through this work by the Spirit we enter into a state that is most easily expressed as love. Thus as love our affection is posited Godward. If God is the greatest of affections, there is no law we are beholden to, for love fulfills the law. Never was the Christian beholden to Law, only beholden to Christ.

Imagine that. A defender of antinomianism immediately shifts the focal point of the topic FROM "Christian's duty - post conversion" TO a new topic "How to become a Christian" , followed by the suggestion that perhaps the opposition is "not moved emotionally by the Gospel". How condescendingly trite, even when dressed up as a thoughtful appeal that we should concentrate on "love" which is really nothing more than "saccharine sentimentalism" by Biblical standards.

No comment about the aforementioned Cognitive Dissonance.
No explanation of the antinomianist contradiction that God's law is obviously not done away with but may be freely disregarded.
No speculation about legitimacy of the argument, but only about the spiritual health of those who postulate it.

 

[mjrhealth]

No no, I'm correct that your post #33 is an unconscious betrayal of your thoughts which reveals that you believe a relationship with God excludes the idea of total surrender to Him: that God is merely your "assistant" or "co-worker" there to "help" you in your own efforts by which you know cannot possibly measure up...so you concoct a religion that does away with the standard - God's law - by which you are to be measured and backfill the hole with a false concept of grace.

A true relationship with God is built on our assent that He is our Divine Master and we are helpless slave recipients of His divine, infinite sacrificial love which saved us from our sin, and henceforth we serve Him in total surrender of every thought, word, and deed for every moment of the rest of all eternity, for He alone is worthy.

Do you see what I did there? I showed you how total surrender or lack thereof determines what we think of God's law. I choose total surrender.

Surrender, YE I have, that is why the Law is no concern of mine, it is for bad people just as it says.

I still remember the time you admitted you couldnt keep it, like all of heaven rejoiced,, Oh how blind are religious men who put there religious ideals before Gods plan for mans salvation.

And so all of Christs good works become of no effect.

 

[farouk]

By the same token; If you need to be told to honor the Sabbath (the fourth commandment) you might not be born again.

The New Testament believer is not under the law. Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed; and what the New Testament believer now has is better than the law, Hebrews 7.19.

 

[mjrhealth]

The New Testament believer is not under the law. Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed; and what the New Testament believer now has is better than the law, Hebrews 7.19.

But even again, the "law" was never changed for us as we where never, ever and just to repeat, ever under it, and that is why we are supposed to provoke the Jews unto jealousy. because we, "the believer" where given the "better" way, yet so many prefer the other way. This bit

Luk_5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

hopefully some might understand what Christ is saying here.

 

[Phoneman777]

You must use the OT commentary on sabbath keeping to keep it as God meant. No heat or cooking on Saturday plus much more. = death for violating.

Since the Mosaic Law written by the hand of Moses on scrolls was nailed to the Cross, that leaves only the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God on stone to define how to keep the Sabbath - which is the seventh day of the week, not the sun god day - and it simply says "do not work". We should worship God and fellowship with each other on the Sabbath and leave the paycheck earning, lawn mowiing, laundry, etc. until after the Sabbath is over.

 

[Phoneman777]

We do not have the Ten Commandments written in our heart. We have the two great commandments of Love for God and people just as Abraham had.

Ah, the old "the Two replace the Ten" idea.

Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't say such - it says the Ten and everything else "hang" or "are established" by the Two in Matthew 22:40. Besides, unless love for God and neighbor now includes Satan worship, veneration of idols, blaspheming God's name, killing, stealing, lying, etc., the Ten are included in what which is written on the heart of true Christians.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Do you see what I did there? I showed you how total surrender or lack thereof determines what we think of God's law. I choose total surrender.

wouldn't u rather surrender to grace, no condemnation in grace

 

[Phoneman777]

Surrender, YE I have, that is why the Law is no concern of mine, it is for bad people just as it says.

By your own words, you expose yourself as having yet to totally surrender to Christ (He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.").

I still remember the time you admitted you couldnt keep it

You heard me say I couldn't keep God's law in my own strength...however, Christ's indwelling power is more than sufficient, something you antinomianists can never experience because your failure to totally surrender to Christ leaves you to try in vain to overcome in your own strength until you give up trying to conform to Christ's ideas and make Christ conform to your own ideas.

 

[Phoneman777]

wouldn't u rather surrender to grace, no condemnation in grace

Not "grace" but "disgrace" teaches we may break the Ten Commandments - which is why Jesus had to die on the Cross to save us in the first place. Only if you make a total surrender to Christ will you finally understand that obedience is more than possible because it is then Christ will take up residence in your heart ("imputed righteousness") and obey His own law and give you credit for it ("imparted righteousness").

 

[mjrhealth]

Not "grace" but "disgrace" teaches we may break the Ten Commandments - which is why Jesus had to die on the Cross to save us in the first place. Only if you make a total surrender to Christ will you finally understand that obedience is more than possible because it is then Christ will take up residence in your heart ("imputed righteousness") and obey His own law and give you credit for it ("imparted righteousness").

and while you are here defending your religion and making a mockery of all Christ has done, men and woman are standing before Gods throne all dressed up in His righteousness, and not because of any "law " keeping, which no man can do and of which Christ has no obligation to help you with, as He has already done it all. You are just making yourself look a fool.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

see you are playing Jesus.....

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not "grace" but "disgrace" teaches we may break the Ten Commandments - which is why Jesus had to die on the Cross to save us in the first place. Only if you make a total surrender to Christ will you finally understand that obedience is more than possible because it is then Christ will take up residence in your heart ("imputed righteousness") and obey His own law and give you credit for it ("imparted righteousness").

disgrace in placing the burden on man. total surrender is believing and confessing so you receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, so as to rest in His finishd work and not be beaten by clubs and whips and by His wrath

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him

Those who dont believe in vain suffer for His sake and not thelaw

 

[Dave L]

Ah, the old "the Two replace the Ten" idea.

Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't say such - it says the Ten and everything else "hang" or "are established" by the Two in Matthew 22:40. Besides, unless love for God and neighbor now includes Satan worship, veneration of idols, blaspheming God's name, killing, stealing, lying, etc., the Ten are included in what which is written on the heart of true Christians.

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. (They called the box they kept them in the "ark of the covenant"). And The New Covenant replaced them. We still have the two great commandments but not the Ten that hung from them. We however use the ten for instruction and commentary.

 

[Dave L]

Since the Mosaic Law written by the hand of Moses on scrolls was nailed to the Cross, that leaves only the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God on stone to define how to keep the Sabbath - which is the seventh day of the week, not the sun god day - and it simply says "do not work". We should worship God and fellowship with each other on the Sabbath and leave the paycheck earning, lawn mowiing, laundry, etc. until after the Sabbath is over.

You must do all of it or none of it. The Torah defines the Ten Commandments and what they mean. If you want to keep the Sabbath, you cannot heat your house or cook on Saturday even when it's -20 with the wind howling.

 

[Phoneman777]

and while you are here defending your religion and making a mockery of all Christ has done, men and woman are standing before Gods throne all dressed up in His righteousness, and not because of any "law " keeping, which no man can do and of which Christ has no obligation to help you with, as He has already done it all. You are just making yourself look a fool.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

see you are playing Jesus.....

Ahab accused Elijah of "troubling Israel", but Elijah set him straight: "I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim."

I don't concern myself with the criticism of lost people who claim to love Jesus but boldly declare that they have forsaken His commandments.

 

[Phoneman777]

disgrace in placing the burden on man. total surrender is believing and confessing so you receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, so as to rest in His finishd work and not be beaten by clubs and whips and by His wrath

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him

Those who dont believe in vain suffer for His sake and not thelaw

No, disgrace is claiming that the Savior takes up occupancy in the heart of those who refuse to yield their will to His will and allow Him to live out His life through them - a doctrine straight for the pits of hell.

Romans
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15 What then, shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid:
6:16 Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Revelation
22:12 "Behold, I come quickly and My reward is with Me to give to every man according as his work shall be:
22:14 Blessed are they which do His commandments, that they might have right to the tree of life and may enter into the
gates to the city."

 

[Phoneman777]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. (They called the box they kept them in the "ark of the covenant"). And The New Covenant replaced them. We still have the two great commandments but not the Ten that hung from them. We however use the ten for instruction and commentary.

The Ten Commandments were not the Old Covenant, they were a component of it - the other component being God's promise of blessing.

The Old Covenant was God promising to bless His people and His people promising to obey God.
The New Covenant is God promising to bless His people and then promising to remedy the problem of our inability to hold up our end of the covenant by entering our hearts and keeping His own law for us - and then giving us credit.

The Ten Commandments haven't been done away with, just relocated from stone to fleshly hearts (2 Cor. 3:3 KJV).

 

[Phoneman777]

You must do all of it or none of it. The Torah defines the Ten Commandments and what they mean. If you want to keep the Sabbath, you cannot heat your house or cook on Saturday even when it's -20 with the wind howling.

Sorry, but Colossians 2:14 is clear that what Moses wrote on scrolls has been done away with - while God's words written by His own finger in stone "stand fast for ever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness." Psalm 111:7-8