Antinomianism (faith without works): Where Cognitive Dissonance Lives

[Phoneman777]

And God rested from His works dont see you resting from anything...

Seriously? I'm the one telling us to REST on the Sabbath and YOU"RE telling us to disregard that and keep right on working LOL

Oh, the irony

 

[Phoneman777]

christian obligation is result of thankfulness to the cross, christian origination is result of belief on the cross.

well, works didn't save us, and works can't keep us. oits only coming to terms with the revelation that He died for past present and future sins and nothing we can do or not do can alter that

For the last time: works neither save us or keep us:

The are the evidence that we have been saved and are being kept.
Likewise, the absence of works is the evidence that we are NOT saved and kept.

That's why John says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He (that's you, Heb) that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him."

 

[Phoneman777]

Love fulfills the Law thereby establishing it as an eternal axiom. But the Ten Commandments were not the eternal law.

"The works of His hands...
(He wrote Himself that which He did not even trust us to write)
... are verity and judgment. All His commandments are sure; they stand fast forever and ever."
(that's why they're in STONE)​

They forced wicked people to act as though they loved God and others under threat of death, while promising material gain for obedience.

You're saying such "acting" results in God both mercifully withholding due punishment from and gracefully bestowing blessing to the wicked, which cannot possibly be true. God does that despite the enmity of the wicked, according to Romans 5:6-8

The Two Great Commandments naturally fulfill the Ten Commandments. But you cannot fulfill the two great commandments by keeping the Ten.

No, but if you love God, you'll keep the first four, including the commandment to not work and rest on the Sabbath day which God chose, and if you love your neighbor, you'll keep the last six.

 

[Phoneman777]

Notice the Ten Commandments were temporal;

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

It does not say the Ten Commandments were temporal - it says the covenant was temporal. "Covenant" is just a fancy word for "agreement" and the Old was replaced with a New: same law, same blessings, but with " better promises".

No matter how many times the Christian world repeats "the tens commandments were the OC" or how many believe it, the Bible never calls the OC the Ten Commandments. The "proof" text: "And He commanded you to perform His covenant, even ten commandments..." references a particular component of the covenant (their end of the bargain), not to the whole covenant itself and it's just dishonest to for anyone to suggest otherwise.

You are totally ignoring my challenge to explain how your logic makes this alteration of Romans 3:31 sensible:

"Do we make void the Law Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: we establish the law Old Covenant."

 

[Mjh29]

It does not say the Ten Commandments were temporal - it says the covenant was temporal. "Covenant" is just a fancy word for "agreement" and the Old was replaced with a New: same law, same blessings, but with " better promises".

No matter how many times the Christian world repeats "the tens commandments were the OC" or how many believe it, the Bible never calls the OC the Ten Commandments. The "proof" text "And He commanded you to perform His covenant, even ten commandments..." references a particular component of the covenant (their end of the bargain), not to the whole covenant itself and it's just dishonest to for anyone to suggest otherwise.

You are totally ignoring my challenge to explain how your logic makes this alteration of Romans 3:31 sensible:

"Do we make void the Law Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: we establish the law Old Covenant."

Agreed. Though the keeping of the Law has nothing to do with Salvation. If we love Christ, and are transformed by the renewing of our minds, we will keep them. What is your view on the place of law in respect to salvation? Do you believe the works are proof of salvation, or that they actually take part in salvation?

 

[Mjh29]

And as for the covenant, it is still in effect as well. Time and time again, God makes reference to the everlasting covenant... which he made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is fulfilled in Christ, but is still in effect. The covenant of grace will never fade or end

 

[mjrhealth]

Seriously? I'm the one telling us to REST on the Sabbath and YOU"RE telling us to disregard that and keep right on working LOL

YE you should pay attetnion.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

you lawyers all sound teh same....

 

[mjrhealth]

For the last time: works neither save us or keep us:

eaxctly. teh law was given to teh Israelites to teach them about Sin, this bit

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

and it was never given to the gentiles because

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

so you are doing this bit

Luk_5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

because you havnt done this bit

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better

ie you are hung up on teh law that was never given to you, which daily condemns you as it should, that is what it does and rejected grace which is the new covenant for the Jews but our only one, but you are a gentile playing at Jewish.

or as Christ put it

Joh_9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh_9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Phoneman777]

Agreed. Though the keeping of the Law has nothing to do with Salvation. If we love Christ, and are transformed by the renewing of our minds, we will keep them. What is your view on the place of law in respect to salvation? Do you believe the works are proof of salvation, or that they actually take part in salvation?

My position is exactly what yours is above. Obedience is the outward evidence of a sinner inwardly transformed by grace. Likewise, the lack thereof is evidence to the contrary.

 

[Phoneman777]

YE you should pay attetnion.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

you lawyers all sound teh same....

Yes, salvation is NOT of works, so why do yo not demonstrate the inward rest a Christian is supposed to have in Jesus by resting on His Sabbath day in demonstration of love for Him, as He says we will do if we truly love Him in John 14:15?

 

[Phoneman777]

eaxctly.

OK, you agree with me that the law can neither save us or keep us. Glad we agree on that.

Now, you know what else is true about the law? It exposes the hypocrisy of those who claim Jesus is their Savior and Lord but do not keep His commandments (1 John 2:3-4). You have stated emphatically that you do not concern yourself with God's law. By your own words, the Bible condemns you.

 

[mjrhealth]

OK, you agree with me that the law can neither save us or keep us. Glad we agree on that.

Now, you know what else is true about the law? It exposes the hypocrisy of those who claim Jesus is their Savior and Lord but do not keep His commandments (1 John 2:3-4). You have stated emphatically that you do not concern yourself with God's law. By your own words, the Bible condeemns you.

No the law just does what it does it exposes sin to the sinners, it was all it ever did... and still doing to men who choose to keep it. as it says

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

so by your very own words and deeds have proved to us all you are not a righteous man.. and round the wheel we go again.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, salvation is NOT of works, so why do yo not demonstrate the inward rest a Christian is supposed to have in Jesus by resting on His Sabbath day in demonstration of love for Him, as He says we will do if we truly love Him in John 14:15?

See HE is our rest, we rest in Him from our own works as God did from His, you are not resting from anything. It is faith that pleases God, what you do is unbelief.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

but you prefer your religions doctrines to teh truth

Mar_7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

God has so much for you, it is your religion, that you wont let go of that is keeping you from Him, it is your doing not His..

 

[Mjh29]

My position is exactly what yours is above. Obedience is the outward evidence of a sinner inwardly transformed by grace. Likewise, the lack thereof is evidence to the contrary.

This is truth. Very well stated.

 

[Phoneman777]

No the law just does what it does it exposes sin to the sinners, it was all it ever did... and still doing to men who choose to keep it. as it says

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

so by your very own words and deeds have proved to us all you are not a righteous man.. and round the wheel we go again.

That's the job of the law - to show us our sin, like the mirror James talks about. It shows us our sin, then we go to Jesus for cleansing...but did you know that James says we are to CONTINUE looking into the law? We do that to see if sin is dirtying up our face. Christianity is not a "one and done" thing - its a continuing back and forth.

John Wesley got it right: "I cannot spare the law one moment no more than I can spare Christ...each is continually sending me to the other; - the law to Christ and Christ to the law...the height and depth of the law constrains me to fly to the love of God in Christ...the love of God in Christ endears the law to me 'above gold or precious stones...'"

 

[mjrhealth]

That's the job of the law - to show us our sin, like the mirror James talks about. It shows us our sin, then we go to Jesus for cleansing...but did you know that James says we are to CONTINUE looking into the law? We do that to see if sin is dirtying up our face. Christianity is not a "one and done" thing - its a continuing back and forth.

Only for those who are sinners, and so you choose to sin by trying to keep the law you cant keep, and making a mockery of all that Christ did, for the sake of your religion and its doctrines. Than you and your religious friends demand we all do teh same.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

but you like so many would rather your religion to teh truth

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using, after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[Phoneman777]

This is truth. Very well stated.

Amazing how many people read the Bible with their eyes open and cannot see this is exactly what is said over and over:
1 John 2:3-4
1 John 5:2-3
Romans 13:10
John 14:15
1 John 3:22-24

 

[Mjh29]

Amazing how many people read the Bible with their eyes open and cannot see this is exactly what is said over and over:
1 John 2:3-4
1 John 5:2-3
Romans 13:10
John 14:15
1 John 3:22-24

Agreed. And it is almost equally amazing that people think that just because a person thinks we should keep the law, that they must be works righteousness. It's honestly kind of funny in a sad sort of way

 

[Phoneman777]

Only for those who are sinners, and so you choose to sin by trying to keep the law you cant keep, and making a mockery of all that Christ did, for the sake of your religion and its doctrines. Than you and your religious friends demand we all do teh same.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

but you like so many would rather your religion to teh truth

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using, after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Was Jesus guilty of making a mockery of His own saving work for us when He:
1) convicted the woman caught in adultery of her sin (pointed her the law)
2) forgave her of her sin (pointed her to His saving grace)
3) ...and then told her "go and sin no more" (pointed her back to the law)
????????

Notice how what Jesus did is in perfect harmony with what James says all grace-saved saints are to do - continue looking inot the "perfect law of liberty" The same law that condemns prisoners to years behind bars is liberty to those of us who walk according to it, is it not?

 

[mjrhealth]

Was Jesus guilty of making a mockery of His own saving work for us when He:
1) convicted the woman caught in adultery of her sin (pointed her the law)
2) forgave her of her sin (pointed her to His saving grace)
3) ...and then told her "go and sin no more" (pointed her back to the law)
????????

Notice how what Jesus did is in perfect harmony with what James says all grace-saved saints are to do - continue looking inot the "perfect law of liberty" The same law that condemns prisoners to years behind bars is liberty to those of us who walk according to it, is it not?

so angry so little understanding, bu that is the way for those who rather there religion than the truth, the blind leading the blind, and we see what happens next..

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Religion, tehe devils best friend.