Are There People Doomed For Destruction?

[BarneyFife]

imo that is maybe not the best translation, but i will say that whenever Jesus says "if" my metaphorical ears perk up
anyway, my guess is that Jesus metaphorically "went" and also "comes again" via the NT testimony that we all now have access to, and discuss, etc

so here, "clouds" might be an obv metaphor for something like "obscuring," "every eye" might be as opposed to "both eyes" or iow what we now call "third eye" perhaps, "even they who pierced Him" is imo making it plain that Jesus isnt ever literally returning, and the mourning part i gotta do later, im late! bye

Fair enough.

 

[BarneyFife]

He hates LIES; especially those about Him.

Indeed

 

[quietthinker]

The Pharisees of today preach that God is all love and forgiveness.

Do you want tradition or do you want Truth?

The tradition of the Pharisees was their truth.....it manifested in murdering the the Prince of Life because it was their heart's overflow yet they would never have admitted that's who they were murdering.....it was hidden from them...... by their own choice.

 

[MatthewG]

But do you believe there are people destined for destruction?

In other words, do you believe there are people who have no chance whatsoever to be saved?

The Bible is actually not silent on this matter.

Revelation 22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:

2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him,

4 and they shall see His face, and His name [is] upon their foreheads,

5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages.

6 And he said to me, `These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly:

7 Lo, I come quickly; happy [is] he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;

9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:

12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

16 `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

20 he saith -- who is testifying these things -- `Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.

 

[GEN2REV]

Uh...
You're absolutely right.
The Bible does not say:
"I believe what the Bible says about how a person can be saved."

It doesn't say this, either:

But isn't their doom caused by their choices rather than by God's foreknowledge?

 

[GEN2REV]

Revelation 22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:

2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him,

4 and they shall see His face, and His name [is] upon their foreheads,

5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages.

6 And he said to me, `These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly:

7 Lo, I come quickly; happy [is] he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;

9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:

12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

16 `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

20 he saith -- who is testifying these things -- `Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.

Ahh.

So, in your opinion, there are people who, like brute beasts, are only good for being hunted down and destroyed.

I've always valued your passion.

 

[bbyrd009]

Honestly, I'm just a tad surprised that you would use words as definite as "can't be quoted" to describe the Parousia

im noticing that just looking up “parousia” (Greek) in google provides plenty of, nothing but hits for “return” in english, or “second coming,” so, just like “eternity” see, the english is not being true to the greek, which has a word for “return” already, hupo strepho, that one might think would “definitely” be employed at least one time? And parousia is present participle, not future tense?
Strong's Greek: 3952. παρουσία (parousia) -- a presence, a coming
ειμι | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (New Testament Greek)
bottom

 

[GEN2REV]

The tradition of the Pharisees was their truth.....it manifested in murdering the the Prince of Life because it was their heart's overflow yet they would never have admitted that's who they were murdering.....it was hidden from them...... by their own choice.

The church traditions of today, among the so-called Bible authorities (modern Pharisees), are not the same as back then; yet they are still wrong.

Do you value tradition or do you value Truth?

 

[bbyrd009]

The body of Christ is composed of all those parts in whom his Spirit resides

ok, so, there’s like a hundred other ways that that concept could be said without invoking a “body” of Christ, which must (at least in a literal sense; which evabody wanna read literal, right) infer that Christ is gonna have two bodies if He were to literally “return?”

 

[bbyrd009]

destroying death itself ought to give perspective.

ya…seems to me that that is in a different context, but maybe
and i dont expect violence @ “destroyed all rulers” fwiw

 

[bbyrd009]

The mention of getting the doves out of there to their handlers

this is not bringing up a recall or a (search) return for me, little help? tks

 

[MatthewG]

Ahh.

So, in your opinion, there are people who, like brute beasts, are only good for being hunted down and destroyed.

I've always valued your passion.

Nah.

 

[FHII]

Yes I do FHII. however, not to be disparaging, because so do I. The question is, what is the criteria we use to generate our own particular highlighting?

It's possible to thrash around in the scriptures infinitum all the while thinking we are on the right track because we are quoting 'God's word.'
In my view, this is an extremely short sighted and hit and miss approach because it requires we ignore many scriptures which don't suit our highlighting.

How can God's spirit teach us freely when we insist on such short sightedness? We effectively put ourselves in straight jacket setting ourselves up for misunderstanding.

Paul was shaken out of that 'phenomena' with his encounter on the Damascus road in a dramatic way ....although it did take time even for him to sort through the debris.

Most of us don't have dramatic experiences like Paul but we do have that still small voice instructing us to be self honest with scripture......to admit when and how our selection process is hamstrung.

At least you admit to doing it as well...

The only true reasonable way to handle any controversy is to hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Though you may think otherwise; I have.

I am aware of the verses used to support free will and "God loves everybody" as much as I am aware of the ones that state otherwise. I fully acknowledge all the verses.

 

[GEN2REV]

Nah.

Peter says there are people so inherently wicked that God actually reserves them in their wickedness unto the day of Judgment.
2 Peter 2:9

He even strongly implies that some of these folks are professed christians, feasting with other Christians. He says they're incapable of stopping their sinning and that they're literally cursed.
2 Peter 12-15

Does that sound to you like people who could possibly repent and be saved?

 

[MatthewG]

Peter says there are people so inherently wicked that God actually reserves them in their wickedness unto the day of Judgment.
2 Peter 2:9
He even strongly implies that some of these folks are professed christians, feasting with other Christians. He says they're not capable of stopping their sinning and that they're literally cursed.
2 Peter 12-15

Does that sound to you like people who could possibly repent and be saved?

needs more context brother, love you,

take care.

 

[GEN2REV]

needs more context brother, love you,

take care.

And that's a FACT.

 

[MatthewG]

Peter says there are people so inherently wicked that God actually reserves them in their wickedness unto the day of Judgment.
2 Peter 2:9

He even strongly implies that some of these folks are professed christians, feasting with other Christians. He says they're incapable of stopping their sinning and that they're literally cursed.
2 Peter 12-15

Does that sound to you like people who could possibly repent and be saved?

To me the wrath of God was poured out on the nation of Israel when Jesus had returned to get his bride, all those who put Christ to death were justifyingly punished by the Fall of Jerusalem.

Only believers would have seen the return in that day in age, some people were taken captive, and unbelievers who had not faith, died in the destruction that had fell upon them by the Roman surrounding armies.

They lost everything, and everything materially was obliterated and shaken to the ground including the temple, in flames of fire.

@GEN2REV Hope you understand, thank you for your time.

 

[quietthinker]

this is not bringing up a recall or a (search) return for me, little help? tks

John 2:16
To those who sold the doves, he said, "Take these things out of here! Don't make my Father's house a marketplace ...

 

[quietthinker]

Do you value tradition or do you value Truth?

You have asked this a couple of times. How is it you don't hear my answer in my reply?

 

[quietthinker]

To me the wrath of God was poured out on the nation of Israel when Jesus had returned to get his bride, all those who put Christ to death were justifyingly punished by the Fall of Jerusalem.

soooooo, Jesus forgave them as he was dying yet later punished them?......how does that work Matthew?