Are We Being Duped?

[aspen]

Republicans tell us to vote for them because they will stop abortion in America.

Democrats tell us to vote for them because they will look out for the poor in America.

Have you ever though to your self - 'who is the last group of politicians to stop abortion in America (even if it were possible)?' - the answer is the Republican Party - why should they give up so many guaranteed votes?

Same thing with the Democrats - even if poverty could be curbed at the federal level - who would be the last group of politicians to tackle it? Democrats are great at creating expensive systems that look effective and end up expensive.

John Stewart said it best: "Conservatives want to sell us the America that never was; Liberals are selling us the American that never can be"

I think this is why Jesus was not a politician.

Peace

 

[veteran]

It's really a lot deeper than that Aspen.

The events in this world are going to happen the way God shows in His Word, and none can sidestep what He has already ordained. This is why I try to understand the political according to how God's Word reveals it, so I'm able to witness His Word and The Gospel to those who know something is wrong with today's politics, but just can't put their finger on what the heart of the problem is.


Isa 3:1-7
1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,
2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,
3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.
4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.
5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.
6 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, "Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand":
7 In that day shall he swear, saying, "I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people."
(KJV)

Think that's only upon Judah and Jerusalem during Isaiah's days? Doesn't it sound just like today in our own nation?

It doesn't require a whole lot of intelligence to understand that what comes out of politician's mouths should always be held with some suspicion, and it's better to look at the politician's 'fruit' (works) instead. Yet how many take time to do that?

And where in our U.S. Constitution does it say elected officials can only come from a two-party system? I don't plan to vote Democrat or Republican, but will there be anything else available on the ballot that truly supports American Constitutional values? Should I listen to those who say if you don't vote for one or the other, it's just giving the election away to the party you may not like, because any other party than Democrat or Republican won't get enough votes to win? Why must we vote for a political 'party' at all?

It's because... that's the system the 'locusts' have setup today. God showed us a four-stage working of the locust in the Book of Joel. He showed they are undefeatable by us; only He will destroy them according to His timetable. He showed they won't break their ranks, and when one of them falls upon the sword they won't be wounded (figuratively). If one did breaks ranks, another fills in the gap. God calls them HIS great army He sends among us (Joel 2). They have teeth like lions, which once a lion clamps down on its prey, it will not let go.


Here's another idea...

The German philosopher Hegel who was an early philosophical father that led to the ideas of both communist socialism (Lennin's political machine), and nationalist socialism (Hitler's political machine), also proposed a political idea he developed from observing conflict in nature. It's about the idea of negative vs. positive; good vs. evil; ying and yang; i.e., a basic conflict revealed by the law of nature (of this world). Two opposing sides, (hence a two-party political system idea?).

He then observed another idea from that; the idea of resolution of conflict. Not difficult to understand, since this natural world does have opposing forces to cause conflicts even in the earth's weather system. And when one side goes too far, the other side opposes creating conflict to bring back a balance. The end result is... a third condition of properties from both sides.

His final proposal was the quest of being able to CONTROL the conflict, and thus CONTROL THE OUTCOME OF THE THIRD CONDITION that results from conflict.

How would a two-party political system use this?


It's simple. Both sides only present solutions to issues that contain ability for compromise. No all or nothing one way or the other, but a joining of parts to create a third condition, the DESIRED end. Both parties swap compromise back and forth. Afterall, a lot of Washington politicians are trained lawyers aren't they?

An international scenario: the U.S. had missles in Turkey close to the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union ships missles to Cuba, causing the Cuban missle crisis. The U.S. raises the conflict. The Soviets pull the missles out of Cuba. The U.S. removes its missles from Turkey near the Soviet border (which the U.S. says it was going to do anyway). The third desired condition? The Soviets used Hegel's principles of conflict resolution and control to force the U.S. to remove its missles. The Communists constantly use the Hegelian dialectic upon the U.S. via disinformation strategy. And since God said our leaders for the last days would be like children, our enemies are slowly gaining control over us from within, just like they said they'd do back in the '50's.

Now the real question is, does there exist another group in the shadows that exerts an amount of control over both Democratic and Republican parties? If that is so, then they would be able to present to both parties only policies for conflict that produce a certain end goal they desire. I believe such a shadow government does exist, and has existed in our nation since at least the early 1900's. Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley documented that group in his 1960's work Tragedy and Hope, and it involves the Rhodes scholarship program which is actually a British institution founded by students of British socialist Cecil B. Rhodes (Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar). Professor Quigley ought to know, since he was also Bill Clinton's history professor at Georgetown University. That is how America has been headed towards world socialism since the 1900's. Both the Democratic and Republican parties have been guilty of passing socialist type legislation that errodes our U.S. Constitution.

Even Ronald Reagan handed over the U.S. Army's Presidio in San Francisco to Russian Gorbachev for his globalist summits. The Presidio was like a historic place for the U.S. Army. This is why even so-called 'conservative' leaders can be seen doing some dirty-dealing that simply does not fit their proposed conservativism, including spending a lot of taxpayer money that used to only be a Democratic party trait. They're both working together, and have been for a long time.

 

[SaberTruth]

Check out the quote here by Quigley on why the two-party system is a farce. (scroll down a bit)

 

[veteran]

It's amazing what Quigley revealed in his book Tragedy and Hope. That's why he said later his book must have said something the "establishment" didn't want known, since he had to sue his publisher to find out why they quit publishing his book.

His book revealed answers to questions I think many in our nation have wanted to ask, but were afraid to ask.

How does all that play out with what God's Word says? It shows that God's Word is true, and that what God has said will come to pass, will.

Quigley revealed a British Round Table group sister organization in the U.S. called the Council On Foreign Relations. It's a think-tank where American leaders meet to work out problems. They claim it's not used to set American policy, but there's been enough revealed in their magazine Foreign Affairs to show that's a lie. When Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton were at each other's throats in the media, they were sitting together at the CFR meetings, along with leaders in media, education, high finance, the military, and other senators and congressmen. The 1993 list of members I saw showed around 3,000 members. They have to claim they don't form domestic and foreign policy, because it would be illegal to do so per our U.S. Constitution.

In the Leftist-bent letter sent by the Dept. of Homeland Security to city police chiefs around the U.S., it warned for police to consider veterans returning from the Iraq war and Christians to be a possible domestic threat, along with anyone promoting the U.S. Constitution, or even mentioning the CFR, or supporters of senator Ron Paul from Texas (Ron Paul has been an opponent of one world government, the United Nations, the Federal Reserve Act, etc., components instituted in America that have caused the situation we are now in). The head of Homeland Security had to appear before a congressional hearing to explain that bogus letter, but the source within the department was never revealed.

Thus the documentation of a group in the West that have plans to institute a one world government system, transfer power to globalist organizations like the U.N., and take away many of our God-given inalienable rights per the U.S. Constitution and The Declaration of Independence, has been out there for quite a while now. And it all aligns with prophecy in God's Word for the end of days about a world beast system established over all nations, per Revelation 13.

What may be difficult for many to fathom today, is how there are high Christian leaders in the West that support that plan, and are busy pushing ideas in many Churches to support it. Some of those Christian organizations must be held in suspicion as true Christian organizations. And others that involve true Christ believing organizations are simply being duped into thinking that Christ's Kingdom means their helping to bring in a type of one-world Utopia on earth so Jesus can rule over it. Quigley talks some about those type of Christian organizations being involved, but with true humanitarian purpose. And maybe that's why he himself said he had no problem with the one world government plan, for he said he's been close to it all his life (meaning close to the "establishment" insiders behind it in America).

So consider their plan for one world government. Can it be seen as a humanitarian operation?

Yes, and that's why it has been so successful in deceiving even good American leaders. What true Christian doesn't want all nations to peacefully co-exist, and end starvation and bloodshed upon the earth? So it's like if a candidate in the Miss America Pagent wants a better score, she must include the phrase of wanting "world peace" in her creed, and those who don't get a lesser score.

The plan for one world government is seen as a good thing by humanitarians; and that's why many of them are for it. It's also why they don't really care to hear Bible-believing Christians preach of how that system is Bible prophecy in prep for setting up the coming of the Antichrist to take control over it, and institute idol worship upon all peoples on the earth. Their grasp of that Bible prophecy is as far away as the moon to them. They only want to see the good that such a one world system can bring. In that respect, their minds are really like little children, trusting the group of world controllers really behind it that serve the devil who are preparing the whole world for their false messiah.

This is why Apostle Paul would say in 1 Thessalonians 5, that when 'thy' shall say, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon them. It also why our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24:6 that as along as wars and rumours of wars are going on, the end is not yet, signaling that the end of this world will come with a short time of false peace upon the whole earth.

 

[SaberTruth]

Good post, veteran. :thumbs up:

 

[[email protected]]

Now the real question is, does there exist another group in the shadows that exerts an amount of control over both Democratic and Republican parties? If that is so, then they would be able to present to both parties only policies for conflict that produce a certain end goal they desire. I believe such a shadow government does exist, and has existed in our nation since at least the early 1900's. Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley documented that group in his 1960's work Tragedy and Hope, and it involves the Rhodes scholarship program which is actually a British institution founded by students of British socialist Cecil B. Rhodes (Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar). Professor Quigley ought to know, since he was also Bill Clinton's history professor at Georgetown University. That is how America has been headed towards world socialism since the 1900's. Both the Democratic and Republican parties have been guilty of passing socialist type legislation that errodes our U.S. Constitution.

Even Ronald Reagan handed over the U.S. Army's Presidio in San Francisco to Russian Gorbachev for his globalist summits. The Presidio was like a historic place for the U.S. Army. This is why even so-called 'conservative' leaders can be seen doing some dirty-dealing that simply does not fit their proposed conservativism, including spending a lot of taxpayer money that used to only be a Democratic party trait. They're both working together, and have been for a long time.

Re your remarks on a 'shadow government' above (highlight is mine). Although events today may suggest such a conspiracy, the problem with such a scenario is that such shadowy direction implies a coherent and unified policy. There should be a fixed goal. There is neither.

For example, although Obama is motivated by Marxist socialism and American black racism, it is also apparent that he is forced to support laws and regulations which favor Transnational Corporations and US military imperialism; reflecting powerful external influences on policy which are out of character for our socialist black leader.

Your original quote from Isaiah is perhaps the best answer of all; that GOD IS the shadowy influence behind our government. Not for nothing is Jesus called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

There is indeed a Great Hand behind the scenes directing our destiny.
The shadow is not the hand of man, but that of Divine Providence.

IMO there is indeed a judgment upon our land, not of hurricanes, forest fires, earthquakes and exotic diseases but that of foolishness.

Americans are drunk on war, have denied the God of our Fathers and are paying a terrible price for our wickedness.

 

[bud02]

I can't help but be reminded of a verse in Isaiah. It comes to mind in cases where people speak of predestination, the elect such as Paul, or topics such as this.
My personal vision is Gods word is like a train traveling threw the earth and time, its unstoppable unyielding to men and their plans, you can ether chose to know it or oppose it.
Many today try to stop it or cause it to travel a different rout but the track is laid and the engine set in motion. God has been influencing kings and princes from the beginning.


Romans 9:17 Exodus 9:16 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”


Isaiah 55
[sup]11[/sup] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

With our free will we can choose to play on the tracks, yield to the conductors or ignore the drone of the engine approaching. .
I would suggest that you nether get in the way or a-temp in your own strength to aid it in its predestine course.
But instead marvel at the divine wisdom and purpose of God.

 

[HammerStone]

I like this discussion in this thread - I'm impressed to see some minds working here.

I go back to the lesson in the book of Job. Ultimately, we know, there is one who controls everything. I think, bud02, that you touched on this point quite well. God is in control. That does not mean that Satan will have his moments of control (Job 1:12 ... "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand."...) and that control will enable him to bring about some pretty nasty things. It's not President Obama or the Democrats or even the Republicans or whomever else might step up along the way. The master evil manipulator is in the background all the time, and we Christians are fortunate enough to know he's working - yet we also know better that ultimately he can only work within the will of God.

I sometimes like to use the phrase "mind of its own" for the various political, educational, religious, and economic systems that arise. Unfortunately, the old phrase absolute power corrupts absolutely has proven to be true time again. So far, the only one to ever avoid that is Our Father. These systems generally aren't the result of some scheming mad Hilter - although we've seen our share of those - but of a deaf and dumb system that is preserved by those in power.

Governments (and really any institution) are inherently selfish; they seek ultimately to protect themselves and justify this urge by protecting the citizenry from harm. I realize that's the Paine-ian view on things, but no system is infallible, as good and as earnest as ours was intended to be.

Unfortunately a false dichotomy has arisen. Sure men and organizations with money influence this or that, but you change one face for another.

I've been closely following this year's race for SC governor and while reading this thread, the thought hit me: We have an Indian-American woman running in one party against a middle-aged white male in another race. Which one do you think has the R and which one has the D? You might be surprised. We are presented with these choices - but how different are the choices? One cuts here, one cuts there. One taxes here, one taxes there. The reality of the matter is, we are dealing with governmental systems that are indeed as large as they ever have been. We don't know what we are doing, and it's easy to espouse ideas and the intangibles like the recent "hope and change" mottoes we saw, but at the end of the day is anything ever much different? The real answer is no. Try for just a moment to think of your "favorite" politician.

Now think of something you didn't like/didn't agree with about him/her. Bingo.

I don't believe that the system is influenced by any one millionaire or group. We know who works behind the curtains and we know that we are dealing with a wide range of men and women who have various fixes. As much as we don't want to admit it, the "other side" of a political argument is trying to fix things just as hard as you are. You may not see the same fundamental way of doing it, but the desired result is ultimately the same.

We are not God, we cannot run governments over millions and billions of people. All the more reason we need God.

 

[Surf Rider]

If American Christians would quite acquiescing their stated beliefs, we wouldn't have them choosing between the "lesser" of the evils, condoning one of them. They would then only vote for a righteous leader. Until then, they would withhold their vote. And that would create a huge change in our politics. For the better. But we merely continue to propagate that which we condemn, by supporting the "lesser" of the perceived evils. Support is condonance. We have condoned much, much sin and wickedness. And it has borne much fruit to prove this fact.

O, that those who are called by God's Name, would actually vote in accordance with their stated beliefs! And that demands that they wouldn't even cast their vote in most instances. Christians could acctually then put any Christian into office that they chose: there would be no "unsaved" leaders in our nation. But alas, for that time has escaped us, hasn't it? We have squandered what was placed in our lap. And now we will really start to pay the price for it.

And what further proves this to be correct about Christendom, is that we most readily see that Christendom now has the repentance of Esau, and even though we are earnestly seeking the blessing with tears even, we are not receiving it. Obviously.

But God's hands are not tied in any way, shape, or form. True, scriptural and godly repentance, God will not despise, and He then restores the lost years, He said.

And until then, we will continue to reap what we have sown, continually stuffing things into our pockets riddled with holes. And we look, and have nothing to show for our labors. Which is true for Christendom politically, isn't it!

We need to awake from our spiritual slumber. But that only occurs when we have admitted that we are spiritually errant.

And that won't happen any time soon, from what I see and hear from Christians.

This grieves me.

Imagine how it must rankle God, who name we have continuously blasphemed by voting for evil. Even though it was the lesser of the evils.

May God not have mercy on us, for we need to be chastened and taught by God to actually live the truth that we claim to have.

How long, O Lord?

Even so, come quickly.

So yes, we are being duped: by ourselves.

 

[veteran]

I'm not so sure about some of that reasoning. If we follow The Father and His Son the best we can, that's still not going to change prophecy of what God shows for the latter days. Why would He take time to forewarn us what will happen in the latter days? So we would know, and prepare for it, and be strong in the Faith, ready to make a stand for Him.

So I don't buy all the stuff that His people who stay on Him and His Word are anywhere near in the same boat as the wicked and haughty. Didn't Christ ask that when He comes, will He find faith on the earth? Yes, He will, with those who stay on Him and in His Word as written. There will be a group represented by the five wise virgins ready and waiting on Him like He showed.

Further, our Heavenly Father already showed He is in control, even referring to Satan as His 'rod' for punishing the rebellious (Isaiah 10). Are all Christians rebellious against God today? Of course not, even though we all fall short. Are all Christians responsible for the mess in our nation today? Of course not.

What does a vote matter if we can't have a say in the process of who runs for election? That's been a problem in U.S. politics for quite a while now. But if we had nothing but righteous leaders in governments today, how would that conflict with God's prophecies for the end of this world? So let's not go overboard and start blaming ourselves for what Satan's host have been busy doing, and what they plan to do in our near future.

The state of this world today didn't just happen by chance either. God shows some the history of how we got to where we are, and in many cases that helps to understand better where we're headed. I know I've been led to others who were also seeing it (teenagers too, surpisingly), but didn't yet understand how it involves God's Plan in His Word. It allowed me to give a greater witness of Christ Jesus to them. At the same time, it eased many of their fears once they understood it as prophecy from God's Holy Writ. And that's the main reason I go into such historical detail. It's not to cause fear, but to show how God is in control, so as to not have fear.

God said it's His intent to assemble the nations in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (Zeph.3). That's what the world beast system is leading up to. And when He does that, that means Victory for those in Christ Jesus. I look forward to that day.

 

[Surf Rider]

I'm not so sure about some of that reasoning. If we follow The Father and His Son the best we can, that's still not going to change prophecy of what God shows for the latter days. Why would He take time to forewarn us what will happen in the latter days? So we would know, and prepare for it, and be strong in the Faith, ready to make a stand for Him.

So I don't buy all the stuff that His people who stay on Him and His Word are anywhere near in the same boat as the wicked and haughty. Didn't Christ ask that when He comes, will He find faith on the earth? Yes, He will, with those who stay on Him and in His Word as written. There will be a group represented by the five wise virgins ready and waiting on Him like He showed.

Further, our Heavenly Father already showed He is in control, even referring to Satan as His 'rod' for punishing the rebellious (Isaiah 10). Are all Christians rebellious against God today? Of course not, even though we all fall short. Are all Christians responsible for the mess in our nation today? Of course not.

What does a vote matter if we can't have a say in the process of who runs for election? That's been a problem in U.S. politics for quite a while now. But if we had nothing but righteous leaders in governments today, how would that conflict with God's prophecies for the end of this world? So let's not go overboard and start blaming ourselves for what Satan's host have been busy doing, and what they plan to do in our near future.

The state of this world today didn't just happen by chance either. God shows some the history of how we got to where we are, and in many cases that helps to understand better where we're headed. I know I've been led to others who were also seeing it (teenagers too, surpisingly), but didn't yet understand how it involves God's Plan in His Word. It allowed me to give a greater witness of Christ Jesus to them. At the same time, it eased many of their fears once they understood it as prophecy from God's Holy Writ. And that's the main reason I go into such historical detail. It's not to cause fear, but to show how God is in control, so as to not have fear.

God said it's His intent to assemble the nations in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (Zeph.3). That's what the world beast system is leading up to. And when He does that, that means Victory for those in Christ Jesus. I look forward to that day.

I se what you're saying, yet the belittle the foreknowledge of God. We have the whole OT which is an example of man making poor choices, God's dealing with them, and God even prophecying this. It also states that if we don't fail at it like they did, we will not have the results that they did. But they did fail at it, and God foreknew this, and He, in the "fulness of time", does what He wants. And that is in full accordance with foreknowledge and free will, and God doing his thing.

So to hold that we have no effect is not correct. But God knew that we'd fail miserably at it, and uses that, knowing when the cup of sins is full, and He puts an end to it all.

We do the same thing with our kids, just on a much smaller scale. We can often see ahead of time something that is going to happen due to their actions, and we have a choice of either nipping it in the bud, or letting it run full course. Either way, we use it to train the child. From what I've read in the scriptures, God seeks to use life to train us also, so that we are tested and tried, and then come forth as gold.

So I cannot accept the stance that we do not have any say in world events. And I also say that God foreknew what we would do, and works it all for His glory, in HIs time.

He gets the glory. If there is any shame, I stand with Daniel on it: "to us belongs shame of face, O Lord."

As far as I know, he is listed by God as one of the most godly that ever lived, so I don't think that he was wrong on that one, as it also fits scripture, as I see it.

One more example of this fact:
the Pharisees killed Christ. They definitely changed world events, and no less spiritual events! But God foreknew this, and even prophsied it a number of times, and Christ Himself stated that they would do that. And then told his disciples to put up their swords and let it occur. So the disciples had a hand in it also, and Christ to, by standing by. But this was the will of the Lord, and the times were then for it to happen, so God made sure that it happened. And those involved definitely played an affective role, no matter which side they were on. Change their actions, and you've changed history. And negated prophecy. Christ himself stated that he could ask, and God would grant the angels, but he wouldn't do that and change what God had prophesied. So we see yet again that God foreknew that it would come to pass as He had said that it would. And man had the free choice throughout it all. Just as Pharoah.

If these things be not true, God would have never said "choose you this day whom you serve", as that would have been impossible. And scripture is full of this fact of our ability to choose. That's why God also said, "Seek, ask, knock", and "those who seek me with their whole heart will find me". We must do, and God reciprocates. "He who draws back from me, I will draw back and my soul will find no pleasure in him, says the Lord." God responds to our choices. And God knew before the foundations of the world were even laid, who would respond acceptably to His promptings. Those he foreknew, he predestined, sanctified, called, sealed -- before they were even born. And the others, they were "reserved unto the day of judgment".

It all only works if we accept it all. If we negate any one aspect of it, we become bogged down with problems, either the one way or the other.

But then again, we disagree on this one, it seems.

 

[[email protected]]

If American Christians would quite acquiescing their stated beliefs, we wouldn't have them choosing between the "lesser" of the evils, condoning one of them. They would then only vote for a righteous leader. Until then, they would withhold their vote. And that would create a huge change in our politics. For the better. But we merely continue to propagate that which we condemn, by supporting the "lesser" of the perceived evils. Support is condonance. We have condoned much, much sin and wickedness. And it has borne much fruit to prove this fact.

O, that those who are called by God's Name, would actually vote in accordance with their stated beliefs! And that demands that they wouldn't even cast their vote in most instances. Christians could acctually then put any Christian into office that they chose: there would be no "unsaved" leaders in our nation. But alas, for that time has escaped us, hasn't it? We have squandered what was placed in our lap. And now we will really start to pay the price for it.

And what further proves this to be correct about Christendom, is that we most readily see that Christendom now has the repentance of Esau, and even though we are earnestly seeking the blessing with tears even, we are not receiving it. Obviously.

But God's hands are not tied in any way, shape, or form. True, scriptural and godly repentance, God will not despise, and He then restores the lost years, He said.

And until then, we will continue to reap what we have sown, continually stuffing things into our pockets riddled with holes. And we look, and have nothing to show for our labors. Which is true for Christendom politically, isn't it!

We need to awake from our spiritual slumber. But that only occurs when we have admitted that we are spiritually errant.

And that won't happen any time soon, from what I see and hear from Christians.

This grieves me.

Imagine how it must rankle God, who name we have continuously blasphemed by voting for evil. Even though it was the lesser of the evils.

May God not have mercy on us, for we need to be chastened and taught by God to actually live the truth that we claim to have.

How long, O Lord?

Even so, come quickly.

So yes, we are being duped: by ourselves.

Not sure about the meaning of your statement here because its full of wishful thinking.
Voting for a righteous leader is all well and good, but where do you propose to find such a saint?

There are none available because politics by its very nature erodes the integrity of any candidate be they Christian or not.

Christian political beliefs are as varied as Christian denominations.
God has made it that way so that members of the body of Christ may seek and serve Him in the fertile ground their souls require.
Please refer to the Biblical story of the tower of Babel (Genesis 10). God's wish for the division of the tribes and nations of man is illustrated there.

Ideally, the division of personalities in a republic enables a just government with just decisions.
Unfortunately in America today we have neither. As a result this entire discussion is purely academic.

I did enjoy your passion, however and look forward to future postings from you.

 

[bud02]

Christian political beliefs are as varied as Christian denominations.
God has made it that way so that members of the body of Christ may seek and serve Him in the fertile ground their souls require.
Please refer to the Biblical story of the tower of Babel (Genesis 10). God's wish for the division of the tribes and nations of man is illustrated there.

Very insightful and 12 tribes as well.

 

[veteran]

I se what you're saying, yet the belittle the foreknowledge of God. We have the whole OT which is an example of man making poor choices, God's dealing with them, and God even prophecying this. It also states that if we don't fail at it like they did, we will not have the results that they did. But they did fail at it, and God foreknew this, and He, in the "fulness of time", does what He wants. And that is in full accordance with foreknowledge and free will, and God doing his thing.

So to hold that we have no effect is not correct. But God knew that we'd fail miserably at it, and uses that, knowing when the cup of sins is full, and He puts an end to it all.

We do the same thing with our kids, just on a much smaller scale. We can often see ahead of time something that is going to happen due to their actions, and we have a choice of either nipping it in the bud, or letting it run full course. Either way, we use it to train the child. From what I've read in the scriptures, God seeks to use life to train us also, so that we are tested and tried, and then come forth as gold.

So I cannot accept the stance that we do not have any say in world events. And I also say that God foreknew what we would do, and works it all for His glory, in HIs time.

He gets the glory. If there is any shame, I stand with Daniel on it: "to us belongs shame of face, O Lord."

As far as I know, he is listed by God as one of the most godly that ever lived, so I don't think that he was wrong on that one, as it also fits scripture, as I see it.

One more example of this fact:
the Pharisees killed Christ. They definitely changed world events, and no less spiritual events! But God foreknew this, and even prophsied it a number of times, and Christ Himself stated that they would do that. And then told his disciples to put up their swords and let it occur. So the disciples had a hand in it also, and Christ to, by standing by. But this was the will of the Lord, and the times were then for it to happen, so God made sure that it happened. And those involved definitely played an affective role, no matter which side they were on. Change their actions, and you've changed history. And negated prophecy. Christ himself stated that he could ask, and God would grant the angels, but he wouldn't do that and change what God had prophesied. So we see yet again that God foreknew that it would come to pass as He had said that it would. And man had the free choice throughout it all. Just as Pharoah.

If these things be not true, God would have never said "choose you this day whom you serve", as that would have been impossible. And scripture is full of this fact of our ability to choose. That's why God also said, "Seek, ask, knock", and "those who seek me with their whole heart will find me". We must do, and God reciprocates. "He who draws back from me, I will draw back and my soul will find no pleasure in him, says the Lord." God responds to our choices. And God knew before the foundations of the world were even laid, who would respond acceptably to His promptings. Those he foreknew, he predestined, sanctified, called, sealed -- before they were even born. And the others, they were "reserved unto the day of judgment".

It all only works if we accept it all. If we negate any one aspect of it, we become bogged down with problems, either the one way or the other.

But then again, we disagree on this one, it seems.

I'm definitely not proposing that we as Christians simply lay down, and just let things happen. That's not what I'm saying.

We are to make a stand for Christ. But that stance has nothing to do with thinking to setup God's literal Kingdom on earth for this present world. Apostle Peter showed this present world is to be destroyed by fire (2 Pet.3). No amount of wishful thinking can change that, for God has ordained that. Instead, we are to look for God's future Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness is established. And in the mean time, we are to keep the Faith in following Him and doing His work. That has nothing to do with creating His Kingdom on earth for Him like some think they are able to do today. He is The One Who is going to do that as written. The bottom line is, we're not to put our faith in this world, but in Him through His Son, and in the world to come.

 

[Surf Rider]

I'm definitely not proposing that we as Christians simply lay down, and just let things happen. That's not what I'm saying.

We are to make a stand for Christ. But that stance has nothing to do with thinking to setup God's literal Kingdom on earth for this present world. Apostle Peter showed this present world is to be destroyed by fire (2 Pet.3). No amount of wishful thinking can change that, for God has ordained that. Instead, we are to look for God's future Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness is established. And in the mean time, we are to keep the Faith in following Him and doing His work. That has nothing to do with creating His Kingdom on earth for Him like some think they are able to do today. He is The One Who is going to do that as written. The bottom line is, we're not to put our faith in this world, but in Him through His Son, and in the world to come.

I agree. We do not lay down, and that which will be, will be. And it all works together most beautifully, just as free will and predestination do. To major on the one to the igoring of the other, either way, is errant. The one emphasizes God's perspective, to use that term loosely, and the other emphasizes man's perspective. And all sorts of arguing and debating and schisms have resulted from people not realized that both come into play, and God is sovereign. And completely so.

Another Pandora's box for some.

thanks for the good dialogue.

 

[[email protected]]

In the end nothing will be done, be it political activism or evangelical activity until the body of Christ gets really really angry and decides TO DO something.

All people, not just Christians, are like lazy sheep tending to do nothing when they are comfortable.

Under those circumstances several things can happen.
#1 They are buried where they sit.
#2 They motivate themselves and arise.
#3 God moves them with painful goads.

The wise man chooses door number two.

 

[aspen]

Yeah, just what we need more angry people.....

 

[[email protected]]

Yeah, just what we need more angry people.....

As opposed to what? Contented cattle? Obedient slaves? Unthinking uncritical masses?

An empty bank account and the rumbing noise of an empty belly result in anger.

Life screams for attention and liberty demands free expression.

You seem to prefer the quiet of the graveyard and the regulation of the prison.

 

[aspen]

As opposed to what? Contented cattle? Obedient slaves? Unthinking uncritical masses?

An empty bank account and the rumbing noise of an empty belly result in anger.

Life screams for attention and liberty demands free expression.

You seem to prefer the quiet of the graveyard and the regulation of the prison.

It may surprise you, but I have more emotional expression than the extremes you mentioned - you really believe that if we are not angry, we are obedient slaves? It is also interesting that you chose that term - obedient slave - are we called to be obedient to Christ? Some Christians even proudly proclaim that they are slaves to Christ.....

 

[[email protected]]

It may surprise you, but I have more emotional expression than the extremes you mentioned - you really believe that if we are not angry, we are obedient slaves? It is also interesting that you chose that term - obedient slave - are we called to be obedient to Christ? Some Christians even proudly proclaim that they are slaves to Christ.....

My use of the phrase 'obediant slave' is in reference to mindless acceptance of govenmental regulation. It is secular and political in nature because I linked Christians and non-Christians in my initial remark. Obedient political slaves today do not question or act upon unjust policy; governmental or corporate.

It is an axiom of human nature that the individual will not act responsibily unless motivated. In most instances the individual will not act at all unless acted upon.
The motivations are either internal or external, but in either case the response is limited unless motivated further.

The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Ecc 12:11

For the wise, and there are not many of them in America today, the motivations or goads are internal. Sometimes we call it the work ethic, personal responsibility or character. For the rest, the goads are external such as the force and application of community law or the necessities of survival; hunger, health, personal defense.

For the Christian to these goads may be added the promptings of Almighty God.

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice saying unto me in the Hebrew language, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the goad.
Act 26:14

Therefore I repeat my initial assessment, it is an axiom of human nature to not act unless acted upon. Usually the goad is applied from outside such as one's family, community or God Himself.

Again, Christians will not act be it for evangelism, community welfare, politics or by the direction of God unless motivated. It has often been said that Americans are asleep. That is just another way of saying that we aren't really motivated to improve circumstances.

Circumstances will not change unless Christians and Americans in general get really really angry and do something.