• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your post, Stan; is as full of errors as a dead rat is of maggots.

Wow...so loving! :eek:

The 144,000 are not just Jews.

The 144,000 are 12,000 each from the 12 Tribes...

But it MAY have Escaped your consideration...All the Tribes have been "calling themselves" JEWS for the past 2 Thousand years!
 

Stan B

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
1,967
983
113
81
Toronto
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The 144,000 are not just Jews.
Heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7
Rev 7:14 refers to great tribulation, NOT 'the' GT. It refers to the just occurred Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Christ Returns accompanied by the armies of heaven. Matthew 16:27
The 'Saints will be gathered by His angels at His Return, Matthew 24:30-31 Most of them will be waiting in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14
Your post, Stan; is as full of errors as a dead rat is of maggots.
[/QUOTE]


The 144,000 are not just Jews.

The meaning of "Jews" has changed over the centuries. In modern English it means "one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite."

Heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7

It says they were 'standing before the throne and before the Lamb'. If you don't figure that is Heaven, then that's your choice. It is of no consequence to me.

Rev 7:14 refers to great tribulation, NOT 'the' GT. It refers to the just occurred Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

There are no upper and lower case characters in the Greek.

Christ Returns accompanied by the armies of heaven. Matthew 16:27
The 'Saints will be gathered by His angels at His Return, Matthew 24:30-31 Most of them will be waiting in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14


Rev 12 is talking about the Jews. The saints are already in Heaven as of Rev 7.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come OUT of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9-14
...

Yep, and they are the MARTYRED! That's who they're wearing WHITE robes, -- because they've been washed in the blood of Jesus for their obedience to HIM, and will return with HIM to rule and reign for the thousand years.! :)

Otherwise, please feel free to explain why "NOT SCRIPTURE" should BE SCRIPTURE, because it includes the church when Jesus Returns. -- Alternately, explain why the church is stuck in paradise and can NEVER RETURN. And if the Stuck In Paradise, and the wicked are destroyed, it seems the only ones who Jesus will rule and reign over is -- HIMSELF --, because their will be NOBODY LEFT.


If you're correct then you should explain what happens to the church, -- "NOT SCRIPTURE", or Stuck In Paradise. Choose one! :)
Bobby Jo
 

Stan B

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
1,967
983
113
81
Toronto
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Yep, and they are the MARTYRED! That's who they're wearing WHITE robes, -- because they've been washed in the blood of Jesus for their obedience to HIM, and will return with HIM to rule and reign for the thousand years.! :)
Bobby Jo
I don't recall Scripture saying that they were MARTYRED.
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't recall Scripture saying that they were MARTYRED.

I don't recall you answering what happens to the "raptured church". Did they all simply DIE?

Luke 17:35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Are they STUCK is paradise, never to live the fullness of their lives?

Or are you following a FALSE Doctrine which you can't even explain?

----------------------------------

And as far as what Scripture actually says:

These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come OUT of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9-14

They weren't "raptured", unless you can complete your incomplete doctrine; so yeah, -- they are the MARTYRED
Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The meaning of "Jews" has changed over the centuries. In modern English it means "one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite."
I will address one of your mistaken beliefs:
The Jews themselves say they only belong to the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin, plus some of Levi.
There were some, perhaps thousands of the Northern ten tribes, who migrated into Judah soon after they were divided. They practiced Judaism and became Jews, but the majority of the House of Israel were taken into exile, from which they have never yet returned.

You and other people may use the word Jew as meaning all of Israel, but that isn't ethnically, Biblically, or factually correct.
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bible Prophecy tells us that when Iran attempts to fire nukes at Israel, then the Lord will destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14, Psalms 7:12-16
The Lord will not allow nuke radiation in the holy land.
That is your take on it. I don't buy it. You also missed a critical point: It would be highly unlikely that Iran would try to use nuclear bombs on Israel. Why would they even try it when the prevailing wind would bring the radiation back to them?

Using dirty bombs is more likely. If Iran could get dirty bombs into the hands of terrorists, they wouldn't have to worry about missiles being shot down or about retaliation.
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your post, Stan; is as full of errors as a dead rat is of maggots.

The 144,000 are not just Jews.
Heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7
Rev 7:14 refers to great tribulation, NOT 'the' GT. It refers to the just occurred Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Christ Returns accompanied by the armies of heaven. Matthew 16:27
The 'Saints will be gathered by His angels at His Return, Matthew 24:30-31 Most of them will be waiting in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14
Did you know that "Jews" can be used of all the tribes of Israel at times?

Esther 2:5 Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

Paul was also from the tribe of Benjamin but referred to himself sometimes as a Jew.

Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Did you know that "Jews" can be used of all the tribes of Israel at times?
Only by people who don't know and usually can't be bothered to find out, just who those who call themselves Jews, really are.
Jesus told us: Those who call themselves Jews; belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only by people who don't know and usually can't be bothered to find out, just who those who call themselves Jews, really are.
Jesus told us: Those who call themselves Jews; belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9
I don't think Revelation 2:9 would apply to people from the tribe of Benjamin who called themselves Jews or to the Levites today who identify as Jewish. If so, the Bible itself goofed. Generally speaking, it's used to refer to anyone who practices "Judaism."

I don't know why you adopted such a harsh tone with Stan over this.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stan B

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Israel may not be too happy with what happens next.

U.S. considering F-35 sale to UAE in side agreement to deal with Israel

The United States is eyeing the sale of stealthy F-35 fighter jets to the United Arab Emirates in a side agreement to the UAE's overtures to Israel, an industry insider who was part of the dialogue with government officials said on Wednesday.

A sale, which could reduce Israel's military advantage in the Middle East, would come after Israel and the UAE said last week they would normalize diplomatic ties and forge a broad new relationship under an accord that U.S. President Donald Trump helped broker.

At a news conference on Wednesday, Trump said the UAE was interested in buying F-35 fighter jets made by Lockheed Martin Corp, which Israel has used in combat.

"They'd like to buy F-35's, we'll see what happens, it's under review."

In recent week, U.S. officials have briefed the UAE military on the F-35 fighter jets, despite some National Security Council staffers expressing concern about exposing confidential information to the monarchy before a decision about the weapons sale had been reached, the New York Times reported.
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...
Jesus told us: Those who call themselves Jews; belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

It's not ALL Jews, just as those who call themselves "Christians" also belong to the synagogue of Satan.

You see it's not what we "call ourselves", it's how we live our lives that makes the difference.
Bobby Jo
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
It's not ALL Jews, just as those who call themselves "Christians" also belong to the synagogue of Satan.

You see it's not what we "call ourselves", it's how we live our lives that makes the difference.
Bobby Jo
This I agree with.
But the mistake that many make is to think those who do call themselves Jews, actually are the Israel of God.
No one can prove their descent, most just back 1-200 years.
I don't know why you adopted such a harsh tone with Stan over this.
StanB makes unsupported assertions.
I pointed out to him that Revelation 7 never mentions heaven as the place the vast multitude of Christians are. He continues in this error in his reply, #43
Nowhere does the Bible ever say people will live in heaven. Our names are recorded there, a few are taken there, but there is no mention of their being conscious and living in heaven.
The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a Satanic lie and has successfully fooled many; to their discredit.
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This I agree with.
But the mistake that many make is to think those who do call themselves Jews, actually are the Israel of God.
No one can prove their descent, most just back 1-200 years.
Gentiles who claim to be Jews because they're Christians concern me more.

StanB makes unsupported assertions.
I pointed out to him that Revelation 7 never mentions heaven as the place the vast multitude of Christians are. He continues in this error in his reply, #43
Nowhere does the Bible ever say people will live in heaven. Our names are recorded there, a few are taken there, but there is no mention of their being conscious and living in heaven.
The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a Satanic lie and has successfully fooled many; to their discredit.
I think the idea of going to Heaven is a popular misconception.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... the mistake that many make is to think those who do call themselves Jews, actually are the Israel of God. ...

The REAL MISTAKE is not knowing what Prophetic Scripture says about the nation/state of Israel. Because if you KNEW what Scripture said, you'd have GOD's perspective instead of man's.

...
Nowhere does the Bible ever say people will live in heaven. ...
You parse words as though the depictions didn't exist. Perhaps you parse words dishonestly.

:)
Bobby Jo
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The REAL MISTAKE is not knowing what Prophetic Scripture says about the nation/state of Israel. Because if you KNEW what Scripture said, you'd have GOD's perspective instead of man's.


You parse words as though the depictions didn't exist. Perhaps you parse words dishonestly.

:)
Bobby Jo
Accusations without evidence are slander and false witness.

As for the current Jewish State of Israel; many prophesies detail their virtual demise:
The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath in the Holy Land:

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev to the North, it will kill both the righteous and wicked alike. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 My sword is sharpened to kill, even the scepter of My Royal Son. Testing will surely come and what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.
[1st time – 585BC, 2nd time - 69/70AD, 3rd time- to come]

Jeremiah 8:5-12 Judah has no remorse or repentance, How can you say: We have the Law, when your scribes have falsified it? For all, high and low are out for ill-gotten gain, your prophets and rabbis are frauds, every one of them. This wicked race would rather die than live. They say: All is well; no, nothing is well, they will all fall with a great crash on the Day of Reckoning. You will be as dung spread on the ground. Then, I will give the Land to new owners.

Ezekiel 16:35-63 Listen you harlot: Because of your brazen excesses...I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder...You must bear the consequences of your lewd and abominable conduct, I shall treat you as you deserve, because you violated an oath and made light of a covenant.
You will remember and be so ashamed and humiliated that you will never open your mouth again.
[after the Lord’s punishment and pardon]

Amos 2:4-5 For the crimes of Judah, there will be no reprieve, they have spurned the Law of the Lord and have not observed His decrees. They have followed false gods. Therefore I shall send fire on Judah, fire will consume them.

Hosea 8:14 And for you, Judah, a harvest of reckoning will come, I will send fire onto your cities

Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who have neither sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him, will be wiped out.

Obadiah 1:15-16 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations....you too will drink the cup of wrath that My people, Judah, must drink on My Holy mountain.

Jeremiah 19:11 I shall smash this people, as a clay jar is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them all.

Jeremiah 21:11-14 To the Royal House of Judah....I shall punish you as you deserve. I shall set fire to your scrubland, it will consume everything around about.

Ezekiel 20:46-47...I am about to kindle a fire in the Negev....it will scorch everyone in the Land.

Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze. The Land is scorched and the people are fuel for the fire.

Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.

Isaiah 4:3-4 The remnant of Judah will be called holy when the Lord cleanses Zion by a Spirit of judgement burning like fire.


Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them

Matthew 27:25 His blood be upon us and our children.

Matthew 21:41-43 The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will bear its fruit.

Reference: REB. NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Accusations without evidence are slander and false witness. ...

Is this what you're admitting to? -- I appreciate your FINALLY confessing what you have been guilty of for A LONG TIME, in spite of my council that you OBEY Scripture.

You've come a long ways. Hope your past errors are now behind us! :)
Bobby Jo