Discipleship ...vs......Salvation

[Kidron]

[font=lucida sans unicode']The confusion that exists in the minds of many whereby they think they have to exist inside a works based theological salvation to be saved and to keep their salvation..... can often be traced to a simple misunderstanding between discipleship vs salvation.[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']So, lets start by clarifying the difference as related to being [/font]saved.

[font=lucida sans unicode']Simply put......Salvation is God restoring you back into his eternal family [/font]for free [font=lucida sans unicode']based on Christ's finished work that is Faith applied to you once and forever.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']God saved you based on Christ's sacrifice of himself for you..[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']You cant do this for yourself, its a gift.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']The gift is the "Atonement", and its a completed salvation that is offered though faith.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']That is to say, if you BELIEVE.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Notice.....Romans 5:11....."by whom we have NOW RECEIVED the Atonement".[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Notice that word..."Received"[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']This "Atonement" which was completed before you were born is not something you work out, or earn, or keep, or do.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Its something you = Receive.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Its a "free gift"....[/font]Romans 5:17
[font=lucida sans unicode']And what is the "atonement"?...?[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Its the very righteousness of God himself delivered to you as a free gift.....which upon receiving it by faith establishes you just as sinless, just as righteous as God himself..,....forever.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Ask yourself this........how can the righteousness of God not be as righteous as God himself???[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']And you have received the righteousness of God the very second you take Christ and are saved.....[/font]Romans 3:22...."Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL AND UPON ALL them that >BELIEVE<......."..
vs 24.. "being justified FREELY through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...
vs 26..."To declare , I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, that he (GOD) might be just, and the justifier of him which BELIEVETH in JESUS".

So, there ^^^^^ we see the Atonement, as the very righteousness of God hand delivered by Christ's blood as a Gift......and we dont earn this, we dont keep it, we only receive it and its ours for free.......>for free<......no deeds required, no penance requiredd, no church membership required, no confessing sins later required...

Now, notice how the atonement process is for us, the very same as it was for ABRAHAM....
" Romans 4:1...."What shall we say then that Abra[font=comic sans ms']ham our father as pertaining to THE FLESH [/font][font=comic sans ms']hath found"??......[/font]now [font=comic sans ms']notice that phrase..."The Flesh"...[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']This is speaking of works and deeds and acts and LIFESTYLE.........or, trying to save yourself or make yourself right with God by YOUR EFFORTS.[/font]
Romans 4:2....."For if Abraham were justiied by WORKS.....he hath reason to glory but not before God."
4:3...."For what saith the scripture???? =Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and IT (his faith) was [font=lucida sans unicode']counted unto him for [/font]righteousness".
Now, do you [font=lucida sans unicode']see what has transpired here?........Abraham offered God faith, and God accepted it and then God gave Abraham his righteousness....based on Abraham's FAITH.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']So, Abraham is now just as Righteous as God, because he has been given the very righteousness OF GOD himself.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']And he did NOTHING FOR IT.....no works, no penance, no confessing sins , no deeds......all he did was BELIEVE GOD, and GOD accepted him, accepted his FAITH, and gave him God's own righteousness..[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']So, how righteous does this make Abraham?........How Sinless?..[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']And what did Abraham do, to get this ?[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']He did the same thing you do, and that is why he is called the [/font]"Father of ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE", ...Romans 4:11...
So, this is why Paul tells you in Romans 3:28.. " That we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH"......and Romans 5:1..."Therefore BEING JUSTIFIED by Faith, we have peace with God through Christ".
Now, do you see[font=lucida sans unicode']what part you have to do in all this?[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Do you see that you have NO PART in redeeming yourself, but that redemption, salvation, justification, is based on Christ and God gives it to you when you BELIEVE[/font]
"Salvation is not of yourself, it is the GIFT OF GOD".....Ephesians 2:8......."NOT OF WORKS"....Ephesians 2:9, Romans 4:1-5
Faith is COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS......Romans 4:5
Faith is Counted for Righteousness....Romans 4:5

[font=lucida sans unicode']So, that is Salvation, and where the confusion comes in is when this is connected to discipleship with regards to justification.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']See, once you connect it you will then lose the revelation of the FREE GIFT of righteousness and fall from Grace.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']Then you have this issue......[/font]Galatians 5:4...."Christ is become of no effect unto you...whosoever of you are justified by the law, you are fallen from Grace".
Now this verse simply means......"hey, you use to believe in Christ alone, but now you are trying to save yourself with your LIFESTYLE and your WORKS, and you have gotten away from the free gift of righteousness = GRACE".
And this is what happens when a person confuses discipleship with salvation.

So, what is discipleship?
Well, it is[font=comic sans ms']nt something that can save you.....thats the bottom line...[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']Discipleship is simply the works you do, that prove you are a Christian, following your conversion..[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']Discipleship is just the basic acts and deeds and "fruit" that should follow your salvation...[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']They are done BECAUSE you are saved............not because you are saving yourself or keeping yourself saved by doing them.[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']Now get that.........= Discipleship is the fruit of your salvation, but its not your salvation....Discipleship is the life you are to live BECAUSE you are saved, but not to save yourself.[/font]
Remember that you have the righteousness of God ALREADY.......thats a done deal....then after you are saved, after you are >made righteous< just as Abraham was, by "BELIEVING", = then you are to follow up with holy lifestyle as proof you are saved.
Or as James says....that he shows you his salvation...= BY HIS WORKS....that is to say....his works are proof he is a born again child of God.
His works follow his faith, but his works do not SAVE HIM. = the distinction.
So, thats how its[font=comic sans ms'] supposed to play out, but the truth is, your lifestyle will sometimes reflect your Christianity and sometimes it wont reflect it at all.[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']Isnt that the truth?[/font]
Are you good all the time?.....Do you behave as your faith would have you behave all the time?
[font=comic sans ms']Of course not.[/font]
[font=comic sans ms']So, aren't you glad you have been redeemed by God, based on the Blood of Christ, and not based on your behavior AFTER you are saved?[/font]

[font=comic sans ms']Now lets look at a discipleship scripture...[/font][font=comic sans ms']......[/font]Romans 12:1....."that you present your bodies a living sacrifice"...
This [font=lucida sans unicode']scripture is a typical scripture that is used to define how you are to behave [/font]after you are saved, but not to be saved, or to keep yourself saved.
Its very important that you understand this distinction, so that you dont fall away from GRACE based on this scripture and begin to try to save yourself by your works.

Lets look at this one.....1st Peter 1:16....."be ye holy for i am holy".....
Once again, this verse in context is speaking about how you are to behave AFTER you are saved..
Remember that you already HAVE the righteousness of God.........so, the verse cant be talking about what you already possess.
So, the verse is a discipleship exhortation to behave according to your position in Christ.
That is to say.... that you are to behave in a way that represents your current and eternal status as a redeemed child of God.
Not to be saved, but because you ARE saved.
God saved you....thats eternal............now behave as if you are, thats your part.

Now there are other verses that tell you how to behave following your completed redemption, so be certain when you read a verse that tells you to...."Mortify your members"....that you recognize that this is what you do BECAUSE you are saved, and not to try to be saved or to keep yourself saved.
Remember, you dont keep what God has already done FOR YOU .......You dont save what God has already saved.

Here is a basic analogy, that hopefully will show you the distinction between salvation that God completed for you, and discipleship that you do afterwards that shows that you have >been< saved.

If you join the Army, you sign up, you commit to some years.
After you do, they give you a uniform and a job.

So, the uniform and the job, .....is this what puts you in the Army?

So, the uniform and the Job are your discipleship that FOLLOWS "signing up".. but its the signing up that put you in the Army.
Do you see it?

In other words, you can own a uniform, and do an army job, but are you in the ARMY just because you do?

And, can you not wear the uniform well and not do the job well..... and still be in the Army.????????
Yep.
Its because you signed up..............that why you are IN.

So, it is with Salvation..........You signed up with FAITH and God put you IN the ETERNAL Family of God.
After you do this, you are to wear the armor and do the job every day, every minute..
And as long as you are not trying to wear the uniform and do the job to BE SAVED but you wear it because you ARE SAVED, then you understand the proper distinction between Salvation, which God did for you, and Discipleship which you do BECAUSE you ARE saved.



blessings,,




K

 

[Episkopos]

We are saved before we die in order to be discipled. There is no salvation on the shelf. There is no burying this salvation for future use. If we do not surrender everything to Christ then we will have our salvation (talent) revoked and be kicked out of the kingdom.

All this hijacking of the purposes of God! No one has a privately owned salvation policy. I think there is a lot of confusion with life insurance that men sell you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

It's good to see you quoting some 'discipleship' verses. John 15 is a good chapter to understand abiding in Christ, too... and the bit about being cut off and cast into the fire if we don't abide. Remember that verse?

Now there are other verses that tell you how to behave following your completed redemption...'

Unfortunately though, 'completed redemption' has not yet happened. Romans 8:23. Luke 21:28 This is what we 'hope' for.


Maybe you need to do some research on the verses which say we are 'being saved', and we 'will be saved'?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

We are saved before we die in order to be discipled. There is no salvation on the shelf. There is no burying this salvation for future use. If we do not surrender everything to Christ then we will have our salvation (talent) revoked and be kicked out of the kingdom.

All this hijacking of the purposes of God! No one has a privately owned salvation policy. I think there is a lot of confusion with life insurance that men sell you.

I have a different view Episkopos.

You say ...... We are saved before we die in order to be discipled
I say ............I am saved before I die in order to be saved. ... Discipleship may occur later , but it is not compulsory or necessary.

You say.... No one has a privately owned salvation policy
I say ........ my salvation is an individual one between myself and my Lord , it involves no one else , so in that sense it is a private salvation policy between my self and the Lord , premiums paid in full by Him , me as beneficiary.

You say ... If we do not surrender everything to Christ then we will have our salvation (talent) revoked and be kicked out of the kingdom.
I say .... first of all , I do not feel salvation can be revoked. .... If Christian salvation was an "on-again off-again" program , it would collapse into a pile of broken laws and broken people and broken souls . That model could not work. Maybe a loss of rewards at the day of Jesus judgement of the Christian , but not a loss of salvation. We are already with the Lord at that point.

One final question ..... what does .... "surrender everything to Christ" ... mean ?? I hear that phrase used on a regular basis but nobody will explain the meaning .

Best wishes. I look forward to your comments.

Hi Kidron,
It's good to see you quoting some 'discipleship' verses. John 15 is a good chapter to understand abiding in Christ, too... and the bit about being cut off and cast into the fire if we don't abide. Remember that verse?

Hi dragonfly .... I encourage you to read John 14 and 15 again.

You will clearly see that it is written to , and written for , the 12 disciples , Jesus is not addressing us. Thanks.

We are not the 12 disciples ..... we are the recipients of the teachings of the disciples .... especially Paul's gospel to the gentiles. The vast majority of us today are gentiles , not many of us are Jewish converts to Christianity.

Attempting to apply the attributes of the 12 disciples to ourselves causes endless snags and endless failures on our part. We are not qualified.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

So, when Jesus told the disciples to make disciples, were they not making disciples of Jesus Christ?

As a Christian, I've always been led to believe that my Master who bought me, is the one of whom I am a disciple.

So, are you saying you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ, but of some other man?

 

[Axehead]


The confusion that exists in the minds of many whereby they think they have to exist inside a works based theological salvation to be saved and to keep their salvation..... can often be traced to a simple misunderstanding between discipleship vs salvation.

So, lets start by clarifying the difference as related to being saved.

Simply put......Salvation is God restoring you back into his eternal family for free based on Christ's finished work that is Faith applied to you once and forever.

When you say for free you are misleading people terribly and you really sound like a cheap salesman when you present the Gospel of Jesus Christ that way.
There is an incredible cost to following Jesus, IT IS CALLED EVERYTHING!


Matt 10:34-37
You family may turn against you. That is a pretty big cost to most people. Many have fallen away from the faith in order to retain their family relationships.

Rom 12:2
James 4:4
We must no longer harbor any idols in our hearts or love the things of the world. However, many love their idols and the things of the world and they fall away from the faith.

James 4:13-15
You are to lay down your will and seek His will each day, but may find this too hard to do.

Acts 14:22
A person may choose not to go through hardships for Christ's sake.

John 15:18-21
You will be hated (because the world hates Christ) and some don't want to go down this road.

John 17:14-16
God won't take you away from evil and in fact you will be exposed to more persecution than you have ever had.

2 Tim 3:12
You will be called to live a godly life but many pretend to live a godly life in order to fit in and avoid persecution.

1 Peter 1:6-9
God will bring more trials and suffering into your life in order to test, prove and strengthen your faith, because your faith is very valuable to God. Many grow weary in turn back.

2 Cor 1:8-10
You may even despair of life itself.

James 1:2-4
If you want a life of ease without trials then following Christ may not be for you.

Rom 5:3-5
God uses trials to produce His character in us.

Phil 1:29
It has been granted unto us to SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE. But if you don't want this kind of suffering you are able to opt out.

2 Cor 4:8-12
More persecution.

1 Peter 2:21
You are called to follow in Christ's steps. When reviled, He reviled not.

Acts 9:15
You are no one special. Even Paul was told he would suffer for Christ

1 Peter 4:12-15
And don't think all these fiery trials are some strange mistake.

Rev 2:10
Luke 22:31
Satan will be allowed to attack you and test you.

Eph 6:11-12
You will now be a focal point for destruction and deception and the powers of darkness will do all they can to bring you to the point where you give up and deny Christ by your actions and words.

2 Tim 4:17
When you stand up for Christ you will be attacked with mockery and ridicule.

Rev 3:19
You will even be corrected and rebuked by God because you are His Son and He is trying to bring you to maturity in Him which is walking in love for God and man no matter what happens to you in life.

Prov 29:1
Heb 10:31
You must not grow weary as God is working in your life and correcting you. You will be expected to walk in humility and receive God's rebukes and corrections.

2 Tim 2:19
If you desire to truly follow Christ you must turn away from all Evil and Wicked Behavior.

As you can see there is no FREE TICKET. This is a lie from HELL. And this Gospel is really destroying people and not saving people.

Discipleship is NOT OPTIONAL!


Luke 14:28-33

King James Version (KJV)

[font=Charis SIL'][sup]28 [/sup]For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
[sup]29 [/sup]Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
[sup]30 [/sup]Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
[sup]31 [/sup]Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
[sup]32 [/sup]Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
[sup]33 [/sup]So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.[/font]

[quote]So, what is discipleship?
Well, it isnt something that can save you.....thats the bottom line...
Discipleship is simply the works you do, that prove you are a Christian, following your conversion..
Discipleship is just the basic acts and deeds and "fruit" that should follow your salvation...
They are done BECAUSE you are saved............not because you are saving yourself or keeping yourself saved by doing them.
Now get that.........= Discipleship is the fruit of your salvation, but its not your salvation....Discipleship is the life you are to live BECAUSE you are saved, but not to save yourself.[/quote]

I would not recommend living a life of disobedience to Christ.

[quote]Remember that you have the righteousness of God ALREADY.......thats a done deal....then after you are saved, after you are >made righteous< just as Abraham was, by "BELIEVING", = then you are to follow up with holy lifestyle as proof you are saved.
Or as James says....that he shows you his salvation...= BY HIS WORKS....that is to say....his works are proof he is a born again child of God.
His works follow his faith, but his works do not SAVE HIM. = the distinction.[/quote]

Are you saying that one can have a genuine conversion to God and be born-again, and though they grow weary, and offended and then refuse to forgive and subsequently harden their heart and fall away from God, they will still be saved because they had a genuine conversion 25 years ago?

[quote]So, thats how its supposed to play out, but the truth is, your lifestyle will sometimes reflect your Christianity and sometimes it wont reflect it at all.[/quote]

Maybe not your lifestyle but your behaviour certainly should reflect that you serve and love Christ. Your lifestyle may go down hill fast as you could be thrown in prison, but you should be giving glory to God, and confessing Him before men if you genuinely love the Lord above all else.

The DIFFERENCE between YOU and JESUS is that YOU PRESENT DISCIPLESHIP (Abiding in Christ) as OPTIONAL.

Why don't you start telling people the reality of following Christ and what the cost is. It's not FREE? We repent and turn from our ways unto Him. There is cost right there. You are giving up many things when you turn away from self and the world, towards Christ.

Your gospel is going to bring destruction upon many.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

Axehead may have picked up on this point accidentally,

We repent and turn from our ways unto Him. There is cost right there.

but I noticed what you'd said in the OP, particularly avoiding repentance, as if the model we see in Abraham, before the Mosaic Law, can be transferred directly from Abraham to the modern era. [font=lucida sans unicode']I have made bold the words about which this comment applies.[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']So, Abraham is now just as Righteous as God, because he has been given the very righteousness OF GOD himself.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']And he did NOTHING FOR IT.....no works, no penance, no confessing sins , no deeds......all he did was BELIEVE GOD, and GOD accepted him, accepted his FAITH, and gave him God's own righteousness.

[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Whereas not only did John Baptist call for repentance, but Jesus called for repentance, the apostles called for repentance... and every modern day preacher should call for repentance. True repentance makes a huge difference in the heart of the new believer.[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']First of all, Abraham did do works. He actually left Ur and travelled to an unknown destination. He had several adventures which showed his heart, including taking Isaac to sacrifice him on Mount Moriah, where the Temple in Jerusalem was later built, after which God said to him:[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: ... 18 '... in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Then, with respect to 'deeds', there is this verse which could not be more clear that Abraham 'did' things -[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham was accounted 'righteous' because his belief in God's words to him caused him to 'do' what God required of him.[/font]


[font=lucida sans unicode']There is no definition of faith with respect to God, that is not utterly dependent on God for its substance. [/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Abraham's response to revelation from God was the response which pleased God. When God speaks to a person, that person discovers their credence of God's word (faith) has been created by the hearing of God's word. It is a gift from God. Eph 2:8.
[/font]

 

[justaname]

James 2

Faith and Works​

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?​

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15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,​

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16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?​

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17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.​

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18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”​

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19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.​

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20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?​

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21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?​

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22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;​

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23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.​

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24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

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25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?​

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26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

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Scripture is clear. But to be completely fair.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

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9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

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10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

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Let me first point out the word gift in accordance with the original greek refers back to the word saved. Some believe faith is the gift referenced but according to this passage that would be incorrect due to the genders used by the author.​

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The works that are done through us are God's, and not our own. They declare that God is working in us, not that we are working in God. It is through Abraham's "faith" or also described as trust in God that His work was made effectual. Think Hagar and Ishmael. God made a promise to Abraham, yet did not explain how it was to come about. Abraham and Sariah decided to take matter into their own hands, not trusting, or having faith in God to accomplish what was promised.​

Faith is the foundational "work" we must do to establish our eligibility for salvation. The rest is a work of God. Jesus is the author, perfecter and finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2) ​

I like what you have posted!​

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[dragonfly]

Hi justaname,

Let me first point out the word gift in accordance with the original greek refers back to the word saved. Some believe faith is the gift referenced but according to this passage that would be incorrect due to the genders used by the author.

Thanks for pointing this out. I can see it makes sense. I will look into it for myself, too. It fits with the end of Romans 6, better. Also, because faith never stands alone - it is always in someone or something as a response - that also fits better. Rather than calling faith a work, it is more like a carrier wave + word from God, that is returned affirmatively towards its source when we have received its message into our hearts.

[font="""]

I like what you have posted!

[/font]

Who? Me? (Please confirm. I would not like to take another man's praise.)

If so, thank you.

 

[justaname]

So as to not confuse anyone it think it prudent to post this.

Process of Salvation ​

I. The salvation process is a complete work of God with different persons of the Godhead having different roles:

a. Work of the Father in election. (Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11)​

b. Work of the Father in adoption. (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:5)​

c. Work of the Father in bringing to repentance. (Acts 11:18, 2Timothy 2:25)​

d. Work of the Father in sanctification. (John 17:17)​

e. The Father is the planner.​

i. Work of the Christ in positional sanctification. (Hebrews 10:10, 14)​

ii. Work of the Christ in experiential sanctification. (1Peter 1:16, 1Cor 1:30)​

iii. Work of the Christ in ultimate sanctification. (1Thess 5:23, Ephesians 5:20)​

iv. The Christ is the provider.​

1. Work of the Holy Spirit in preparatory sanctification (1Peter 1:2, 2Peter 2:13)​

2. The Holy Spirit is the producer.​

II. Man is culpable to believe or have faith in Christ upon receiving the gospel. (Romans 10:17)
III. When saved man has a faith that works. (Galatians 5:6, James 2:17-18)
IV. God is the giver of faith (Romans 12:3, Romans 10:17, 1 Cor 12:9)

Hi justaname,



Thanks for pointing this out. I can see it makes sense. I will look into it for myself, too. It fits with the end of Romans 6, better. Also, because faith never stands alone - it is always in someone or something as a response - that also fits better. Rather than calling faith a work, it is more like a carrier wave + word from God, that is returned affirmatively towards its source when we have received its message into our hearts.

[font="""]

Who? Me? (Please confirm. I would not like to take another man's praise.)

If so, thank you.

John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.​

27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” ​

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” ​

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”​

1Thes 1​

2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; [/font]​

3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, ​

4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; [/font]​

Faith is our work.
and
Love is our work.
Galatians 5
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

 

[us2are1]

[font=lucida sans unicode']The confusion that exists in the minds of many whereby they think they have to exist inside a works based theological salvation to be saved and to keep their salvation..... can often be traced to a simple misunderstanding between discipleship vs salvation.[/font]


K

There is no difference. If you are walking in the Spirit of Christ you have crucified the flesh with it's desires and passions. If not you are not saved.

18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

 

[Axehead]

Since Jesus is the Word, I view all commandments in the New Testament as commandments of Jesus Christ regardless of which human being wrote them.

Commandments of Jesus that we should not ignore:


John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

More conditional commandments

Matt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matt 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Further conditions

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

To be sure, the Bible is not a moral guidebook and we don't follow it like a book of rules and regulations. Jesus said the "words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life". As we abide in the Lord these words (above) are given life and internalized in our spirit and become part of us as we grow in Him. His Word in us can only be realized and experience as we obey Him and walk in the Spirit.

Axehead

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Arnie,

So, when Jesus told the disciples to make disciples, were they not making disciples of Jesus Christ?

As a Christian, I've always been led to believe that my Master who bought me, is the one of whom I am a disciple.

So, are you saying you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ, but of some other man?

I would say I am not "a disciple" of Jesus , rather I feel I am "redeemed" by Jesus.

Now if we use the word disciple as to mean "student" (etc) .... then yes , I am a disciple of Jesus.

But mostly what I wanted to point out was that in John 14 and 15 Jesus was specifically instructing the 11 disciples (apostles) and those instructions are not necessarily expected of us . We are not the apostles. They had a unique commission , to gain converts to Christ , we are those converts.

Even at the end of revelation Jesus signifies the uniqueness of the 12 apostles as being the 12 foundations of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. (The 12 tribes of Israel are also mentioned) (they are the 12 gates to Jerusalem)

I think it is admirable to attempt to duplicate what the 12 did , but if we fall short we should not see it as failure.

I think that may be my motive ..... to eliminate the feelings of failure of numerous Christians who mistakenly think they must fulfill the same things the 12 apostles did.

I often like to point out that we are not the 12 disciples .... rather , we are the recipients of their teaching .

Give that some thought dragonfly and later let me know if you agree. I find it helpful to zero in on the times (in the 4 gospels) that Jesus is specifically instructing the 12 apostles (and gives them unique powers as well) .

I would feel like a complete failure if I was required to have all the attributes of the 12 disciples , thankfully I am only required to believe their message , and more specifically the messages from Paul ... the apostle to the gentiles. I am a gentile.

 

[us2are1]

I would say I am not "a disciple" of Jesus , rather I feel I am "redeemed" by Jesus.

Now if we use the word disciple as to mean "student" (etc) .... then yes , I am a disciple of Jesus.

But mostly what I wanted to point out was that in John 14 and 15 Jesus was specifically instructing the 11 disciples (apostles) and those instructions are not necessarily expected of us . We are not the apostles. They had a unique commission , to gain converts to Christ , we are those converts.

Even at the end of revelation Jesus signifies the uniqueness of the 12 apostles as being the 12 foundations of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. (The 12 tribes of Israel are also mentioned) (they are the 12 gates to Jerusalem)

I think it is admirable to attempt to duplicate what the 12 did , but if we fall short we should not see it as failure.

I think that may be my motive ..... to eliminate the feelings of failure of numerous Christians who mistakenly think they must fulfill the same things the 12 apostles did.

I often like to point out that we are not the 12 disciples .... rather , we are the recipients of their teaching .

Give that some thought dragonfly and later let me know if you agree. I find it helpful to zero in on the times (in the 4 gospels) that Jesus is specifically instructing the 12 apostles (and gives them unique powers as well) .

I would feel like a complete failure if I was required to have all the attributes of the 12 disciples , thankfully I am only required to believe their message , and more specifically the messages from Paul ... the apostle to the gentiles. I am a gentile.

Luke 6:40 NKJV
A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.

Luke 14:26 NKJV
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:27 NKJV
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:33 NKJV
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Luke 6:40 NKJV
A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.

Luke 14:26 NKJV
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:27 NKJV
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:33 NKJV
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

MY POINT EXACTLY ...... we are not disciples ..... nor will we ever be ..... we have not forsaken all that we have , we have not turned on our parents and children and family with hatred ...... none of us are bearing a cross.

Jesus is pointing that out to the large crowds who began following him ..... did they become disciples ?.... I think not .... did they become believers ? ... probably some did.

I find it interesting what Jesus says next ... it is about building something (a tower in this case) .... he says you must be able to pay for it .... the foundation must be laid properly .... otherwise the whole project will be ridiculed ...

Luke 14:28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

It is almost like an allegory about what Jesus was doing himself .... He knew the cost and paid the price (His life) .... he laid a solid foundation (12 disciples) (see below) .... His plan is working , and will be fulfilled as planned .... nobody will ridicule Him.

We are given a glimpse of that in Revelation 21:14 ..... (New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven) ...... "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb..... "

........................
Notice it does not say the foundation is built on Christianity forum members who think they are disciples.

It is honorable to strive to be as good as the 12 , but we are not them .... we are the recipients of the teachings of the 12.

If anyone here knows a modern day disciple who has done everything according to Luke 14:26-27 I am all ears. I will send them 10% 0f my income for the rest of my life.

Best wishes.

 

[Prentis]

MY POINT EXACTLY ...... we are not disciples ..... nor will we ever be ..... we have not forsaken all that we have , we have not turned on our parents and children and family with hatred ...... none of us are bearing a cross.

Jesus is pointing that out to the large crowds who began following him ..... did they become disciples ?.... I think not .... did they become believers ? ... probably some did.

I find it interesting what Jesus says next ... it is about building something (a tower in this case) .... he says you must be able to pay for it .... the foundation must be laid properly .... otherwise the whole project will be ridiculed ...

Luke 14:28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

It is almost like an allegory about what Jesus was doing himself .... He knew the cost and paid the price (His life) .... he laid a solid foundation (12 disciples) (see below) .... His plan is working , and will be fulfilled as planned .... nobody will ridicule Him.

We are given a glimpse of that in Revelation 21:14 ..... (New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven) ...... "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb..... "

........................
Notice it does not say the foundation is built on Christianity forum members who think they are disciples.

It is honorable to strive to be as good as the 12 , but we are not them .... we are the recipients of the teachings of the 12.

If anyone here knows a modern day disciple who has done everything according to Luke 14:26-27 I am all ears. I will send them 10% 0f my income for the rest of my life.

Best wishes.

We are called to the same standard as the disciples.

The disciples left everything... Not for the sake of having nothing... But for the sake of participating in the shared life. This is what it is about.

It is true that very few today walk up to that standard. But if you have faith, and you yourself do this, and look for others who do, you will find that there are brothers who are willing to leave everything to be united in the Lord. Those will the ones whom the Lord uses when he desires to bring revival once again.

Let us not be unbelieving and say that God cannot do what he did in the early church. Yes, if we look, cynicism is easy to take on. But Christ is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle!

We will see disciples walking in power and life as Christ and the apostles did, and we will see the true church come alive and fulfill the word of God... Before the end comes.

 

[us2are1]

MY POINT EXACTLY ...... we are not disciples ..... nor will we ever be ..... we have not forsaken all that we have , we have not turned on our parents and children and family with hatred ...... none of us are bearing a cross.

Jesus is pointing that out to the large crowds who began following him ..... did they become disciples ?.... I think not .... did they become believers ? ... probably some did.

I find it interesting what Jesus says next ... it is about building something (a tower in this case) .... he says you must be able to pay for it .... the foundation must be laid properly .... otherwise the whole project will be ridiculed ...

Luke 14:28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

It is almost like an allegory about what Jesus was doing himself .... He knew the cost and paid the price (His life) .... he laid a solid foundation (12 disciples) (see below) .... His plan is working , and will be fulfilled as planned .... nobody will ridicule Him.

We are given a glimpse of that in Revelation 21:14 ..... (New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven) ...... "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb..... "

........................
Notice it does not say the foundation is built on Christianity forum members who think they are disciples.

It is honorable to strive to be as good as the 12 , but we are not them .... we are the recipients of the teachings of the 12.

If anyone here knows a modern day disciple who has done everything according to Luke 14:26-27 I am all ears. I will send them 10% 0f my income for the rest of my life.

Best wishes.

Everyone here is not included in your "we". There are disciples here who have done what it takes to be a disciple.

Those who have don't want or need your money.
They are not nursing on the breasts of the beast any longer.

God alone takes care of them.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

I have will answer your earlier post to me when I have put my thoughts together with scripture. But this that you said, is interesting.

If anyone here knows a modern day disciple who has done everything according to Luke 14:26-27 I am all ears. I will send them 10% 0f my income for the rest of my life.

I know at least one, but I think you would want to do your own research into his life, before arranging the support God has put in your heart to give.

This man has lived by faith for well over forty years. By 'lived by faith', I mean, he does not have a paid job. God called him out of one of the mainstream denominations shortly after he was baptised in the Spirit. I'm not sure at what point God spoke to him about trusting Him for all his needs (and the needs of his wife and children), but God has been faithful to him. In fact, they give a great deal of money away, as the Lord leads and directs, and probably don't 'need' your gift, unless you really know this is what God wants you to do with your money.

I'm sure I could find quite a few others. If you seriously want more info, please PM me.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Arnie,

I have will answer your earlier post to me when I have put my thoughts together with scripture. But this that you said, is interesting.



I know at least one, but I think you would want to do your own research into his life, before arranging the support God has put in your heart to give.

This man has lived by faith for well over forty years. By 'lived by faith', I mean, he does not have a paid job. God called him out of one of the mainstream denominations shortly after he was baptised in the Spirit. I'm not sure at what point God spoke to him about trusting Him for all his needs (and the needs of his wife and children), but God has been faithful to him. In fact, they give a great deal of money away, as the Lord leads and directs, and probably don't 'need' your gift, unless you really know this is what God wants you to do with your money.

I'm sure I could find quite a few others. If you seriously want more info, please PM me.

Thank you for that man dragonfly , I have known of a few (rare) people like him. I have much admiration.

(Not to be negative now) .... but we have to acknowledge that he has not turned on his wife and children ( and I am glad) (and I do not think he should)

Which goes along with my earlier statement that I do not feel we (christians) are the disciples (as per Luke 14 26-27)

If we are supposed to be .... then all the Christians from the beginning would have been required to ........ hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—

Unless .... if our parents , brothers and sisters , and children absolutely rejected Jesus ...... then I could maybe understand us turning our backs completely on them .... they would be enemies of the gospel etc.

I have another dilemma ..... How do I know that the original 12 disciples ........ "hated father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own lives" ...... ?? ... I don't know for sure.

Now I am wondering if maybe the families of the original 12 disciples did reject Jesus .... then it might make sense that Jesus would tell them to turn their backs and "hate" them.

Just thinking out loud , no reply necessary , I know I am kind of getting off track and maybe splitting hairs too much.

Yet I still defend the idea that we are not expected to be able to function on the same level as the original 12 disciples. If we are supposed to , it would make me a complete failure as a christian , as well as every other christian I know .

I feel the 12 disciples had a special commission , and we are the results of what they started.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

(Not to be negative now) .... but we have to acknowledge that he has not turned on his wife and children ( and I am glad) (and I do not think he should)

Perhaps this thought will help you have a context for the verse you quoted in your last post.

My understanding of the word 'hated' (as in Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated, Rom 9:13) is that the original word which has been given the English 'hated', actually means 'loved less'; it is a comparative term, rather than the opposite of loved.

Clearly, from Paul's admonition to husbands, we know a man is to cherish his wife as his own body, and nurture her. Eph 5:28, 29

How the man that I know did this nurturing and cherishing while he was away for months at a time, (and confesses that he cried every night because he missed her and their children so much), is he would write her a whole airmail letter (or more) every day. When they arrived - sometimes in groups if he had not been near a post office very often in the countries where the Lord called him to take the gospel - she would open them one at a time per day. Thus their love was kept aflame, but, he really did have to 'leave' her for long periods, in obedience to the Lord.

Jesus asks His followers to love Him more than all others. This has been the theme of many a sermon and hymn, and I'm sure all who know Him believe He is worthy of the fullest adoration of our hearts, minds, souls and strength. Phil 2:8 - 13.

Mickelson

hate

G3404 μισέω miseo (mis-eh'-o) v.
1. to hate
2. (especially) to persecute
3. (by extension) to love less
[from a primary misos (hatred)]
KJV: hate(-ful)