EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM !

[JLB]

The lord jesus gave us clear instructions to safe guard us from being deceived into following the “false messiah” that would appear in the time of the end.

His disciples asked him to "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
His response to them as well as to us – “And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" mark 13:37

examine the words of christ and understand his message to us.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many…
… 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The clear and unmistakable message here is – No one will have to tell you when the lord Jesus returns.

For “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven”
pitch black darkness, then the light of the world, the lord jesus christ himself, will appear “as lightning shines in the east and is seen in the west”.

No one will have to tell you the lord jesus christ has returned for -
“all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Again it is written –
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Revelation 1:7

If we take heed to his words we will not be deceived into accepting the false messiah as the lord jesus, as if he had returned.

If we take heed to his words and teach them to our children and to our family they can escape the deception that is coming upon the whole world, for it is written –

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The truth is: every eye will see him.
The truth is: as lighting strikes in the east and is seen in the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be.
The truth is: if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

Another word’s if someone tries to convince you that jesus has returned, don’t believe them for - For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The truth is: “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven” first, Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The truth is: when the lord returns he will destroy the lawless one -the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2thessalonians 2:8

The truth is: every eye will see him, when he returns!

The truth is: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed… 2thessalonians 2:3

The truth is: Satan will try to convince you otherwise.

The truth is: every eye will see him, when he returns!

The truth is: Satan will use Christians to deceive you!

The truth is: no one will have to tell you that the sun isn’t shining, or the moon isn’t giving it’s light, or that the stars have fallen from heaven, for when you see these things, look up for your redemption draws near!

Do you love the truth!

 

[veteran]

Excellent lesson, especially that last part about our Lord Jesus telling us to look up, which is pointing exactly... to the Sign of His coming the clouds with the asleep saints He brings with Him, and we are then caught up to join them, and all eyes shall see that.

(I wish I had remembered that in answer to another post to a Pre-tribber that was trying to separate the 'sign' of Christ's coming apart and away from the event of His actual coming in the clouds.)

This is a very important event marker, for the coming false messiah will not be able to mimic the sign of Christ's coming in the clouds. Our Jesus gave the example of seeing lightning shining from east to west to show how easily... His coming will be seen.

I suspect false messiah's coming will be per the Isaiah 10 pattern, out of the north, coming southwards to Jeruslaem, city by city. And like you showed, we will have to 'hear' someone say that 'Christ is here' when that false one shows up. In other words, others will have to advertise it to the world and proclaim his coming in his behalf.

 

[JLB]

Those that teach He will come before the tribulation are unwittingly being used by the Enemy to confuse believers.

Many, unfortunately who don't love the truth will believe the lie, that there are multiple comings of The Lord as well as many raptures, which will snare them and their loved ones in the end.

I pray Our Father in heaven will open the eyes of our understanding in this matter, as well as grant us the faith to embrace the Truth of His Word.


May The Lord Bless you and keep you, JLB

 

[veteran]

The Jewish historian Josephus mentioned false messiah's in the desert where many of the people of Judah mistakedly fled to during the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

That's also about one of Christ's warnings to be on watch in our near future against those who will claim Christ has returned...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)


I've caught this idea from several of today's Jews who are being taught to prepare to flee Jerusalem in the near future when the armies of false messiah surround Jerusalem. They are being taught to flee into the desert, even southward to old Bozrah, wrongly thinking Messiah is going to gather them from there. Instead, they are fleeing right into the trap of those who will be proclaiming Christ has come, that He's either "in the desert" or "in the secret chambers" (in the temple).

The devil already knows what's supposed to happen with how our Lord Jesus will return, and he's already got plans for it to deceive even believing Jews living in and around Jerusalem today.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

The lord jesus gave us clear instructions to safe guard us from being deceived into following the “false messiah” that would appear in the time of the end.

His disciples asked him to "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
His response to them as well as to us – “And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" mark 13:37

examine the words of christ and understand his message to us.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many…
… 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The clear and unmistakable message here is – No one will have to tell you when the lord Jesus returns.

For “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven”
pitch black darkness, then the light of the world, the lord jesus christ himself, will appear “as lightning shines in the east and is seen in the west”.

No one will have to tell you the lord jesus christ has returned for -
“all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Again it is written –
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Revelation 1:7

If we take heed to his words we will not be deceived into accepting the false messiah as the lord jesus, as if he had returned.

If we take heed to his words and teach them to our children and to our family they can escape the deception that is coming upon the whole world, for it is written –

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The truth is: every eye will see him.
The truth is: as lighting strikes in the east and is seen in the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be.
The truth is: if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

Another word’s if someone tries to convince you that jesus has returned, don’t believe them for - For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The truth is: “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven” first, Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The truth is: when the lord returns he will destroy the lawless one -the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2thessalonians 2:8

The truth is: every eye will see him, when he returns!

The truth is: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed… 2thessalonians 2:3

The truth is: Satan will try to convince you otherwise.

The truth is: every eye will see him, when he returns!

The truth is: Satan will use Christians to deceive you!

The truth is: no one will have to tell you that the sun isn’t shining, or the moon isn’t giving it’s light, or that the stars have fallen from heaven, for when you see these things, look up for your redemption draws near!

Do you love the truth!

You need to understand a point here: When Yochanan said in Rev. 1:7 that "every eye will see Him," he didn't HAVE to be talking about "every eye" on the planet!

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

This is a quotation from Zechariah 12:9-14:

Zechariah 12:9-14
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

Thus, it's not "all kindreds of the earth"; it's "all families of the LAND!"

In both Hebrew and Greek, the word for "earth" is a word that simply means "land." Just as our word "earth" can mean the whole globe, the inhabited portions of the globe, the ground, or the dirt beneath our feet, so too the Hebrew word "erets" and the Greek word "gee" (pronounced "gay") can mean the whole globe, a portion of the earth, any particular land, THE Land of Isra'el, a field - a land that a farmer owns and tills, and the dirt of that land!

So, we need to get a grasp on the subject; this verse in Revelation is talking specifically about the nation of Isra'el, and all the "families" are specifically those families in Yeshua`s lineage! Notice the four names underlined above. Did you know that those names can be found in another passage of Scripture?

Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV

While it may not be so readily seen here in the KJV, it is very clear in the Complete Jewish Bible:

Zech 12:9-14
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry.
It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB

By the way, this has to be AFTER the Resurrection since these families shouldn't be co-existing! They are from different time periods in Yeshua`s ancestry! Furthermore, it is no wonder that they would mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn son! He WAS the direct descendant of their only son or of their firstborn son!

 

[veteran]

The Rev.1:7 verse contains more than one phrase of who will see Christ coming in the clouds. Only the second phrase applies to the unbelieving Jews and thus the Zech.12 Scripture about them.


Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

Everyone alive on earth will be made aware of that event of Christ's coming in the clouds. It won't require any man to proclaim it to us, like it will with the false coming of the false messiah.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The Rev.1:7 verse contains more than one phrase of who will see Christ coming in the clouds. Only the second phrase applies to the unbelieving Jews and thus the Zech.12 Scripture about them.


Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

Everyone alive on earth will be made aware of that event of Christ's coming in the clouds. It won't require any man to proclaim it to us, like it will with the false coming of the false messiah.

But, the only other "more than one phrase" in Rev. 1:7 is that phrase that is in question, "Every eye shall see Him!" You are ASSUMING that it refers to "everyone alive on earth." It may also refer to "everyone alive in the LAND OF ISRA'EL!" And, since we just determined that the rest of the verse is quoted from Zech. 12 and refers to "all the families of the LAND who mourn the One who was pierced," including "those who pierced Him," it makes more sense that this phrase, too, refers to every eye in ISRA'EL!

As far as Rev. 6:15-17 is concerned, there you may be right, but even in those verses Yeshua` is already in vengeance mode and GOD is already seated upon the throne!

That suggests that this passage is already referring to the Millennium.

 

[JLB]

Shalom, veteran.



But, the only other "more than one phrase" in Rev. 1:7 is that phrase that is in question, "Every eye shall see Him!" You are ASSUMING that it refers to "everyone alive on earth." It may also refer to "everyone alive in the LAND OF ISRA'EL!" And, since we just determined that the rest of the verse is quoted from Zech. 12 and refers to "all the families of the LAND who mourn the One who was pierced," including "those who pierced Him," it makes more sense that this phrase, too, refers to every eye in ISRA'EL!

As far as Rev. 6:15-17 is concerned, there you may be right, but even in those verses Yeshua` is already in vengeance mode and GOD is already seated upon the throne!

That suggests that this passage is already referring to the Millennium.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.



Every Eye means every eye. Even means INCLUDING those who piecred Him !


This is sad!

 

[veteran]

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.



Every Eye means every eye. Even means INCLUDING those who piecred Him !


This is sad!

That's exactly how that Scripture reads! Thanks JLB.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran, i am most certainly not a pre-tribber. My understanding is the rapture will take place shortly after mid-point of Tribulation.

I still saw no connection claiming the Sign of the Son of Man coming and his actual coming happens at the same time. Moreover, I should add that I have often seen where Christs return is either considered at the time of the rapture or at the time of Armageddon. It seems to me that these events are claimed according to that particular persons understanding, as well I have also seen many times when Christs return was attempted to be used both times yet not at the same time. Some times it is used for many different events.... the meeting in the air.... the awakening of the saints... the dead in christ.... the rapture.... the return to do battle at armageddon... notice some of these seem to be the same and could be... but I wrote them out in this manner because they were authored as different ideas.

My understanding (however limited as I have not pondered it much) is that Jesus will not come to the rapture (visibly at least)- for in this manner; Satan can claim he did it, thus allowing confusion about the rapture. Jesus comes to gather the saints but the timing is in position as to not disrupt Satan from his task, meaning IF the entire world saw Jesus come before Satan could mobilize an army for armageddon then the world would understand that their "messiah"-Satan, is a lair and could easily rebuke him. Oh, the white robes given - often considered to the saints, however, no where have I found credence proving that white robes are for saints or only for saints. I find it difficult to see the saints being gathered during tribulation and before armageddon but, could bee before tribulation commences. A viable working model of events should be necessary to arrive at a conclusion.

Understand when Jesus returns and is visible... everyone will see him, believers and non-believers - unless GRACE is stopped. So, if everyone sees Jesus they will certainly know what many thought was their messiah is not a messiah, but a devil. Would not all those who received his mark seek to destroy him at that time? Do you think that once one receives Satan's mark they can no longer have independent thought? How can justice be given to people without the ability of independent thought? If you found out the person who you trusted with you and your families lives was seeking to destroy you and our family would you not seek to destroy him first?

Now I am not claiming there are no glitches in my understanding only that this is my considerations at this time. For years I have noticed the attempt to understanding prophecy through verses in the bible either being rightfully or wrongly used. The biggest problem with that method is that rarely does it provide a workable model. Prophecy will work and therefore one must be able to provide a workable model for correct understanding.

 

[JLB]

Veteran, i am most certainly not a pre-tribber. My understanding is the rapture will take place shortly after mid-point of Tribulation.

I still saw no connection claiming the Sign of the Son of Man coming and his actual coming happens at the same time. Moreover, I should add that I have often seen where Christs return is either considered at the time of the rapture or at the time of Armageddon. It seems to me that these events are claimed according to that particular persons understanding, as well I have also seen many times when Christs return was attempted to be used both times yet not at the same time. Some times it is used for many different events.... the meeting in the air.... the awakening of the saints... the dead in christ.... the rapture.... the return to do battle at armageddon... notice some of these seem to be the same and could be... but I wrote them out in this manner because they were authored as different ideas.

My understanding (however limited as I have not pondered it much) is that Jesus will not come to the rapture (visibly at least)- for in this manner; Satan can claim he did it, thus allowing confusion about the rapture. Jesus comes to gather the saints but the timing is in position as to not disrupt Satan from his task, meaning IF the entire world saw Jesus come before Satan could mobilize an army for armageddon then the world would understand that their "messiah"-Satan, is a lair and could easily rebuke him. Oh, the white robes given - often considered to the saints, however, no where have I found credence proving that white robes are for saints or only for saints. I find it difficult to see the saints being gathered during tribulation and before armageddon but, could bee before tribulation commences. A viable working model of events should be necessary to arrive at a conclusion.

Understand when Jesus returns and is visible... everyone will see him, believers and non-believers - unless GRACE is stopped. So, if everyone sees Jesus they will certainly know what many thought was their messiah is not a messiah, but a devil. Would not all those who received his mark seek to destroy him at that time? Do you think that once one receives Satan's mark they can no longer have independent thought? How can justice be given to people without the ability of independent thought? If you found out the person who you trusted with you and your families lives was seeking to destroy you and our family would you not seek to destroy him first?

Now I am not claiming there are no glitches in my understanding only that this is my considerations at this time. For years I have noticed the attempt to understanding prophecy through verses in the bible either being rightfully or wrongly used. The biggest problem with that method is that rarely does it provide a workable model. Prophecy will work and therefore one must be able to provide a workable model for correct understanding.

Hi Terry,

I would like to draw your attention to what you wrote.

Veteran, i am most certainly not a pre-tribber. My understanding is the rapture will take place shortly after mid-point of Tribulation.


This is a contradition in itself. Please let me explain.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years in length.

Daniel's 70th week is a 7 year time frame. It is in the middle of this week or 7 year time frame that the Great Tribulation begins.

So, what does that mean to you. If you think Jesus returns in the middle of the 7 year time period known as Daniel's 70th week, then you are a pre-tribber.

There is more to what you wrote that I would like to discuss with you, but first I would like to hear your response to this.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

Hi Terry,

I would like to draw your attention to what you wrote.

Veteran, i am most certainly not a pre-tribber. My understanding is the rapture will take place shortly after mid-point of Tribulation.


This is a contradition in itself. Please let me explain.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years in length.

Daniel's 70th week is a 7 year time frame. It is in the middle of this week or 7 year time frame that the Great Tribulation begins.

So, what does that mean to you. If you think Jesus returns in the middle of the 7 year time period known as Daniel's 70th week, then you are a pre-tribber.

There is more to what you wrote that I would like to discuss with you, but first I would like to hear your response to this.


Thanks, JLB

I tried to explain that difference to him JLB, but it didn't take.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.



Every Eye means every eye. Even means INCLUDING those who piecred Him !


This is sad!

Look, I'll capitulate on the "every eye" part. You and veteran both are probably right that it refers to EVERY EYE of human beings throughout the earth (although it's still a possibility that it does not); however, do NOT make the same dichotomous assumption about the rest of the verse. As a quotation from Zechariah 12, that portion, at least, does NOT refer to "all the tribes of the earth!"

That's all I'm saying, here.

Shalom, JLB.

Hi Terry,

I would like to draw your attention to what you wrote.

Veteran, i am most certainly not a pre-tribber. My understanding is the rapture will take place shortly after mid-point of Tribulation.


This is a contradition in itself. Please let me explain.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years in length.

Daniel's 70th week is a 7 year time frame. It is in the middle of this week or 7 year time frame that the Great Tribulation begins.

So, what does that mean to you. If you think Jesus returns in the middle of the 7 year time period known as Daniel's 70th week, then you are a pre-tribber.

There is more to what you wrote that I would like to discuss with you, but first I would like to hear your response to this.


Thanks, JLB

Allow me to interject for a moment. You're making an assumption that I don't believe you can back up. In fact, outside of some theological theory, there's no Scriptural proof that Dani'el's 70th Seven has anything to do with the Tribulation, Great or otherwise!

Do you have any sort of proof? I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

 

[JLB]

Shalom, JLB.



Look, I'll capitulate on the "every eye" part. You and veteran both are probably right that it refers to EVERY EYE of human beings throughout the earth (although it's still a possibility that it does not); however, do NOT make the same dichotomous assumption about the rest of the verse. As a quotation from Zechariah 12, that portion, at least, does NOT refer to "all the tribes of the earth!"

That's all I'm saying, here.

Shalom, JLB.



Allow me to interject for a moment. You're making an assumption that I don't believe you can back up. In fact, outside of some theological theory, there's no Scriptural proof that Dani'el's 70th Seven has anything to do with the Tribulation, Great or otherwise!

Do you have any sort of proof? I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

The foundation for my belief is the words of Jesus Christ Himself when asked what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

In His discourse concerning the end of the age He says - Matthew 24:13-15

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

So we have some wording in the book of Daniel that The Lord is referring us to that's associated with the end. "Abomination of Desolation". "Standing in the holy place".

As we we read the words of Daniel -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


Here in the book of Daniel we see a 7 year time associated with "Temple" language describing "someone" putting an end to sacrifice and offerings.
According to Jesus this takes place at the time of the end.


Back to the word's of The Lord - Matthew 24:16-21

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It's the middle of the "week" that he puts an end to sacrifice and offering. It's the "abomination" "desolation" trigger words that marks this event that Jesus clearly associated with the end...

 

[veteran]

Allow me to interject for a moment. You're making an assumption that I don't believe you can back up. In fact, outside of some theological theory, there's no Scriptural proof that Dani'el's 70th Seven has anything to do with the Tribulation, Great or otherwise!

Do you have any sort of proof? I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

Truly Retrobyter, what JLB answered in regards to how Jesus associated the "great tribulation" time with the Dan.9:27 "abomination of desolation" event has been there all along. And that event is spoken of elsewhere in the Book of Daniel other than the Dan.9 seventy weeks example.


Dan 8:11-12
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(KJV)

Dan 11:31-35
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)

Dan 12:9-13
9 And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
(KJV)


That "abomination of desolation" subject our Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel must include those above further Scripture examples about it in order to help seal the subject in our minds. The historical example of Antiochus is another clue God provided us, if we would look at it as to how it serves as a pattern example.

This really has nothing to do with the Dispensationalists and Pre-trib Rapture theory which began in the 1800's. Some of the early Church fathers also were aware of connection of the "abomination of desolation" with the last days and the great tribulation Jesus mentioned.

Now if the Dan.9:27 verse were the ONLY Daniel Scripture about the taking away of the daily sacrifice and oblation, then Sir Isaac Newton's theories about Dan.9 might... then ring true.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran and JLB.

Hmmm.... So, you use Dani'el 9 to understand Matthew 24, but you use Matthew 24 to understand Dani'el 9? Sounds like circular reasoning to me!

Just WHERE is it said that the Tribulation is "seven years" and the Great Tribulation is half of that? You've got to break into the circle somewhere! I believe that you are both - as so many are - misled by the theories of theology with no hard evidence in Scripture! Someone came up with the great idea that the "Tribulation" (a common Greek word made into a not-so-common English word that could then be used as a LABEL) is the 70th Seven ("Week") of Dani'el 9, and everyone's buying into it without any proof!

 

[JLB]

I personally don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I believe there is 1 "seven" left in fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy.

I believe in the middle of the week, is when the Great tribulation begins. Let the reader understand.


Thanks, JLB

Daniel 12:1-4,11-13

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

I personally don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I believe there is 1 "seven" left in fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy.

I believe in the middle of the week, is when the Great tribulation begins. Let the reader understand.


Thanks, JLB

Daniel 12:1-4,11-13

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

I understand that's what you believe, but what PROOF is there?

Anyway, you need to be careful about using words as a label or as a trigger. It's not always true that "the end" is THE End! From Dani'el's perspective, the FIRST coming of the Messiah qualified as being in the time of "the end!" Whether after 69 weeks or 69.5 weeks as I believe, he did NOT understand about a "gap," especially a gap of 2000 years!

And, it's still an assumption that the "Great Tribulation" is the last half of the 70th Seven (week), not to mention that "Great Tribulation," as one can see from the capital letters, is being treated as a label!

 

[JLB]

Whether after 69 weeks or 69.5 weeks as I believe, he did NOT understand about a "gap," especially a gap of 2000 years!


I wonder if "he" understood about a "gap" between the first 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

These time frames are broken up as such because there are "gaps".


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran and JLB.

Hmmm.... So, you use Dani'el 9 to understand Matthew 24, but you use Matthew 24 to understand Dani'el 9? Sounds like circular reasoning to me!

So Jesus didn't quote from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" in Matt.24 and Mark 13? Is that what you're trying to say? He did, and you well know it. And I think you also well know what the real meaning of the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel is about, an idol abomination setup up in false worship in the temple.

Just WHERE is it said that the Tribulation is "seven years" and the Great Tribulation is half of that? You've got to break into the circle somewhere! I believe that you are both - as so many are - misled by the theories of theology with no hard evidence in Scripture! Someone came up with the great idea that the "Tribulation" (a common Greek word made into a not-so-common English word that could then be used as a LABEL) is the 70th Seven ("Week") of Dani'el 9, and everyone's buying into it without any proof!

So now you say, Christ never said anything about a time of "great tribulation"? That is how the KJV translators brought the Greek word 'thlipsis' into English, and how it's translated in many other NT Scriptures. So why act ignorant of that? You can't get around its meaning because Jesus also DEFINED what He meant about it with the part in bold...


Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(KJV)

Did you miss that from the Book of Daniel also???


Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)


Joel 1:2-3
2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
(KJV)

Mark 13:19
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
(KJV)


As for the idea of "circular references", The Bible as a whole is one huge... circular reference, all its Books weaved together in completeness.