Fact or Fiction
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Hi Marks,
Thank you for explaining what you meant by the words, 'Gentile Church'. I am glad that you acknowledge the importance of the words of Acts 28:28. and salvation being sent to the Gentiles: for prior to that 'salvation was of the Jew' only (John 4:22) and believing Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel. With the failure of Israel to repent (Acts 3:18-19): the resulting blindness, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel among the nations which followed: there was no Olive Tree to be grafted into. But with salvation being sent to the Gentiles, it was no longer a necessity. How important therefore was the revelation of God to Paul concerning the Church which is His Body, made known to us in his later epistles (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon) on the basis of the truth of Romans 5:12-8:39. That revelation which had been 'hid in God' (Ephesians 3:9) for this eventuality, provisioned by God since before the world began, in His foreknowledge. For now believing Jew and Gentile are united in the Body of Christ as equals in a way that they could never have been before. They are a joint body - In Christ Jesus - a new creation, with a different hope, different blessings, and a different sphere of future glory to that of the Acts Church.
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hi @marks,
The hope of the great cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 11, who shared like precious faith as Abraham, along with the believing remnant of Israel, and those gentiles grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel, who now are, 'asleep in Christ', is that of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. They will meet the Lord in the air as He descends to the earth in His Kingdom, and enter into their hope, which is that of Abraham and the city made without hands, the heavenly Jerusalem.
The hope of those to whom salvation was sent at Acts 28:28, which forms the Church which is the Body of Christ, is found in Colossians 3:3-4:-
'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
* Their inheritance is in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
In that day when He comes . . . but in between dying and the day He comes, we remain dead?
There's an interesting thought!
:)
There's an interesting thought!
:)
'If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above,
not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
(Colossians 3:1-4
Hello @marks,
Yes, it is interesting isn't it? But we must keep it within it's context. Colossians 3:1-4 is the culmination of what has gone before. It shows us how our life is to be lived with Christ.
'Ye are dead' - Yes, Paul said, in regard to the law, in Galatians 2:20, 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.'
Yet Paul still lived, as you and I live, and he died according to the flesh, as you and I will. He spoke of death as being as an 'unclothed' state (2 Corinthians 5:4), for the dead await the power of the resurrection to raise them to life again when they will receive a spiritual body, and therefore no longer be 'unclothed'.
Believers are 'dead' only in Christ, dead to the world (Galatians 6:4), to the law (Romans 7:4) , to sin (Romans6:2) , and alive unto God. So that as the Lord Jesus Christ now lives before the Father in newness of life, so we are to walk as those who in the sight of God have risen with Him too.
Yes, our life is 'hid with Christ in God'.
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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What I don't seem to understand is this. How is the dissolution of the person at the time of their physical death in this world, to be reconstituted at the resurrection, with a non-existance in between, how is that not "death"? At least for a time?
Considering we are already dead? How then does this change?
And considering we are already in the heavenly realm?
And Jesus? The firstfruits? What of Him? What does He demonstrate for us?
Much love!
Hello @marks,
God has identified us with Christ in His death, burial, quickening, His resurrection and ascension to God's right hand. But we are still living in the flesh. ('I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live') our bodies must die and go back to the dust, and our spirit must go back to God who gave it, before being reunited again in resurrection, Yes? God, time and again, calls this death state, in regard to the believer, as being 'asleep in Christ', for by His reckoning we yet live, having the sure hope of resurrection.
* All that is left for us is to appear with Christ, when He too appears in glory (Colossians 3:4). I believe that this must take place just prior to His descent to the earth, but I don't know for sure.
* If we say that we go to be with Him when we die, are we not saying essentially, as Hymeneus and Philetus did, that the resurrection has past already? Or that there is no necessity for the resurrection at all?
* Regarding the firstfruits:-
'For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.'
(1 Corinthians 15:16-26)
* Our position in the heavenlies is sure and secure, but it is promisory: as was that of Abraham of the Holy City, the new Jerusalem. He died not having received the promise, but awaits it's realisation in resurrection. He saw it by faith, and looked steadfastly towards it, as the hope laid before him, as we do in regard to our position of faith, in the heavenlies in Christ. We can enjoy it now, yes, but only by faith. It is fact by God's reckoning: but it has to be entered into by Resurrection.
Forgive me, for this is so 'other' that I find it hard to express it.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
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Dead does not mean cease to exist.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is THE SECOND DEATH."
Revelation 20:10 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is THE SECOND DEATH."
Revelation 20:10 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Hello @kcnalp
Death is the absence of life. The breath of life having gone back to God who gave it, the body to the dust from whence it came (Ecclesiates 12:7).
You can post these verses to your hearts content, kcnalp, but you are not taking into consideration their context, for both of these verses above, refer to the judgement which will take place at the time of the end, when the dead will be raised to judgement, some to life and others to condemnation and final destruction.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Every time YOU quote a verse YOU are taking it out of context. Jesus CLEARLY taught eternal punishment in the fire. Belief in the eternal Hell fire is not required for residency therein. Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell.
Hello @kcnalp.
With an accusation should come proof, and I see none given. If you believe I have quoted a verse out of context, kindly tell me which verse, and in what way I have done so.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You're the one making the phony accusations of taking out of context, and then you do exactly what you accuse others of doing. Are you Jehovah's Witness?
Belief in Hell is not required for residency therein!
Hi Chris,
One of the reasons I like a good forum so much is that we have an opportunity to work out how to talk about what we think of things, and explore our ideas more. Get fresh views of Scripture.
I've been thinking about all this, and for me maybe it comes down to this. Yes, the body returns to dust, the breath of life gone, however, flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit.
What you are talking about, it seems to me, describes what happens with the son of Adam. Whether or not people are conscious as they await judgment, that to me is separate from the fact that we are born of God with an entirely different sort of life.
It's not about our body of dust, or the breath of life in our lungs, or the spirit of life, however you wish to describe this, instead, we have a building not made by hands, eternal in the heavens.
I don't think that 'born from God' is more a concept of how God has imprinted a different pattern into my mind, or something like that. I think 'born from God' is a new creation, that has life with and in God, quite apart from the body of flesh.
The body is death but the spirit is life.
I think being born again is what Jesus was talking about when He said that the one who lives and believes in Him would never die.
Much love!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
... separation. Separation from life / separation from GOD -- separation.
And because we're eternal beings, we will either be WTIH GOD for eternity, or SEPARATED from GOD for eternity.
Although some refuse to see GOD's design without tinted glasses, the end result is eternity either in heaven or hell.
Bobby Jo
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