Heresy, Heretics, and Hurt feelings...oh my

[Truther]

There seems to be confusion regarding the difference between heresy and a heretic.

A heresy is a doctrine that is held by someone at variance with the established religious beliefs.

A heretic is someone who believes contrary to the fundamental tenets of a religion to which he claims to belong.

The difference should be obvious. A heresy is not always a fundamental departure from established or orthodox doctrine. But a heretic believes contrary to the fundamental tenets of a religion he claims to belong to.

For example, I am a SBC member (Southern Baptist). Our church believes in the doctrine of eternal security. Several of our members believe this is wrong, and instead hold that one can be saved and forfeit their salvation. The idea is a heresy to our established belief (it is at variance with established SBC doctrine). In terms of SBC doctrine, it is a heresy (and the one holding the belief will probably not be permitted to teach it, if they are allowed to teach at all). BUT it is not a belief that is contrary to the fundamental tenets of SBC faith (we also believe in “soul liberty” and these persons remain in good standing in our church).

So a heresy is more than a disagreement (it is a belief in variance with established religious belief). But it is not necessarily enough to depart from the framework of foundational belief (the holder of the heresy may or may not be a heretic, depending on the fundamental tenets of the organization).

Unless someone is teaching perfect truth 100% of the time, they are in heresy.

So, since nobody has perfect truth 100% of the time(with 1000 different versions of Christianity) let's all stop calling each other names like "heretic" and debate the issues.

Agreed my fellow heretics?

 

[John Caldwell]

Unless someone is teaching perfect truth 100% of the time, they are in heresy.

So, since nobody has perfect truth 100% of the time(with 1000 different versions of Christianity) let's all stop calling each other names like "heretic" and debate the issues.

Agreed my fellow heretics?

You mean 100% in accordance to the group with whom they identify.

Heresy does not mean "unbiblical" but opposed to the accepted foundational teaching of a group.

 

[marks]

As a Baptist I would say "infant baptism" is a heresy. Baptist doctrine holds that the only baptism is "believer's baptism" and not for salvation.

At the same time a few years ago a Baptist pastor (I think in TX) performed infant baptism (according to the Calvinist tradition, not "for salvation" but being baptized into the church).

The pastor held what us a heresy to Baptist Theology. But he was not considered a "heretic".

A lot goes into how people holds these vires.

For example, I could believe God separated from Christ in terms of redemption while believing it impossible that Christ separated from God in terms of the divine nature. The former is a heresy, I would not be a heretic (I would just be inconsistent in my belief).

I'd agree that heresies are held by heretics, and what makes someone an heretic is that they believe heresy.

If you believe heresy, you are an heretic. Seems simple to me.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

I'd agree that heresies are held by heretics, and what makes someone an heretic is that they believe heresy.

If you believe heresy, you are an heretic. Seems simple to me.

Much love!

Glad to have you with us @marks....

 

[marks]

Glad to have you with us @marks....

Went for a little vacation, no internet or TV or even telephone! Truly heavenly!

Much love!

 

[Willie T]

You mean 100% in accordance to the group with whom they identify.

Heresy does not mean "unbiblical" but opposed to the accepted foundational teaching of a group.

Absolutely! And there is no way to wiggle around that straight fact.

 

[Helen]

You mean 100% in accordance to the group with whom they identify.

Heresy does not mean "unbiblical" but opposed to the accepted foundational teaching of a group.

Yes, nicely said.



Every 'group' and denom has their own pet beliefs ... not unbiblical but taken to an extreme maybe...by an over emphasis on a certain scripture verse.

 

[Helen]

Unless someone is teaching perfect truth 100% of the time, they are in heresy.

So, since nobody has perfect truth 100% of the time(with 1000 different versions of Christianity) let's all stop calling each other names like "heretic" and debate the issues.

Agreed my fellow heretics?

I can say amen to that.

No-one has prefect truth. But God set us in a Body , and together we have the truth .
I would guess that if we each laid out on the table ever single thing that we believed in turn, 99.9 of us would be called a heretic by the rest of the group!
Only One has all truth. So All Truth is within us...yet 'we' don't all have it of ourselves.

 

[Truther]

I can say amen to that.

No-one has prefect truth. But God set us in a Body , and together we have the truth .
I would guess that if we each laid out on the table ever single thing that we believed in turn, 99.9 of us would be called a heretic by the rest of the group!
Only One has all truth. So All Truth is within us...yet 'we' don't all have it of ourselves.

Great post. There is one truth and we are a bunch of schmucks trying to find it.

That’s where we all must put away our trained ideas we have and give ourselves a do over at times.

That in itself is the hardest thing we can do.

In the 70s, as a family member witnessed to me, I told him to back off cause I was born a Catholic and will die a Catholic. I was drying pot in the oven as I said that...lol.

God help us all.

 

[John Caldwell]

I'd agree that heresies are held by heretics, and what makes someone an heretic is that they believe heresy.

If you believe heresy, you are an heretic. Seems simple to me.

Much love!

It does not seem to work this way in practice. But perhaps this depends on the group involved.

I keep thinking of my denomination (SBC) which views a denial of eternal security as a departure from foundational truth (a heresy) yet does not consider those who deny eternal security as heretics.

That said, in theory I get what you are saying. Experience just proves otherwise.

 

[Ezra]

I keep thinking of my denomination (SBC) which views a denial of eternal security as a departure from foundational truth (a heresy) yet does not consider those who deny eternal security as heretics.

do you worship the SBC or God.there is NO denom %100 correct

 

[Giuliano]

I can say amen to that.

No-one has prefect truth. But God set us in a Body , and together we have the truth .
I would guess that if we each laid out on the table ever single thing that we believed in turn, 99.9 of us would be called a heretic by the rest of the group!
Only One has all truth. So All Truth is within us...yet 'we' don't all have it of ourselves.

If I knew everything and knew I knew it, I might feel safe saying, "I got the truth, and if you disagree, you're a heretic." I don't feel that wise. If that thought did cross my mind, I'd doubt my own sanity. I agree with you, Helen, that only One has all truth. It's not me.

I believe that I'll be judged by God as I have judged others. If I hold any wrong ideas, I hope God forgives me. I hope He doesn't look at me on Judgment Day and tell me I'm a heretic; but He might if I call others that. . . . I might be condemned for having wrong ideas if I have condemned others for being mistaken in what they believe.

 

[marks]

I keep thinking of my denomination (SBC) which views a denial of eternal security as a departure from foundational truth (a heresy) yet does not consider those who deny eternal security as heretics.

To me this is "double-think".

But here again, John, I perceive the only real difference between us is that we are using a word slightly differently, while we both recognized that there may be people who have very different views on certain key (to us) doctrines, while still demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit, and showing forth redeemed lives.

But as Paul wrote, there needs to be some division so those who are approved may be seen. Something like that, I'm going off memory here . . .

Much love!

 

[John Caldwell]

To me this is "double-think".

But here again, John, I perceive the only real difference between us is that we are using a word slightly differently, while we both recognized that there may be people who have very different views on certain key (to us) doctrines, while still demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit, and showing forth redeemed lives.

But as Paul wrote, there needs to be some division so those who are approved may be seen. Something like that, I'm going off memory here . . .

Much love!

Probably we are more along the same lines than we might appear.

 

[Helen]

If I knew everything and knew I knew it, I might feel safe saying, "I got the truth, and if you disagree, you're a heretic." I don't feel that wise. If that thought did cross my mind, I'd doubt my own sanity. I agree with you, Helen, that only One has all truth. It's not me.

I believe that I'll be judged by God as I have judged others. If I hold any wrong ideas, I hope God forgives me. I hope He doesn't look at me on Judgment Day and tell me I'm a heretic; but He might if I call others that. . . . I might be condemned for having wrong ideas if I have condemned others for being mistaken in what they believe.

Amen..totally agree Kerry.
Yes I believe Father God is big enough and remembers that "we are but worms..."
..but we glorious to Him "In Christ"...and He even is preparing us to be in union with Him , on That Day.
What an amazing Plan, what an awesome God!!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You mean 100% in accordance to the group with whom they identify.

Heresy does not mean "unbiblical" but opposed to the accepted foundational teaching of a group.

Yet the Bible teaches there is but "one faith" Ephesians 4:5 and not many faithS as denominationalism falsely claims. Therefore the often asked question "what faith are you" has no Biblical basis whatsoever. Furthermore, Jesus refers to this one faith as 'truth' (John 17:17) and truth NEVER contradicts itself. Heresy then is anything that goes against that one faith, that one truth, that one body of information given us within the pages of the NT. Many, many heresies are found within the teachings of many groups but no heresy is ever found within the one faith. There will not be any agreement among people over that one faith in this life, therefore on judgment day there will be a permanent, everlasting separation between those who correctly had that one faith from those that sincerely thought they held it correctly.

 

[Ezra]

You mean 100% in accordance to the group with whom they identify.

Heresy does not mean "unbiblical" but opposed to the accepted foundational teaching of a group.

i preached on something like this new years eve ..there is no reason why the body of Christ can not get along . i really fail to understand people .i was elected pastor of a southern baptist church , every thing was going great till mentioned foot washing . you would have thought i served pulled pork to jews . if you ask m it more carnal minds than heretics . here is some of the things john wesley taught
John Wesley taught four key points fundamental to the Methodist Church.
1) A person is free not only to reject salvation but also to accept it by an act of free will.


2) All people who are obedient to the gospel according to the measure of knowledge given them will be saved.


3) The Holy Spirit assures a Christian of their salvation directly, through an inner "experience" (assurance of salvation).


4) Christians in this life are capable of Christian perfection and are commanded by God to pursue it.


he also coined the phrase agree to disagree . instead we use labels/ denoms to segregate Christians

 

[Nancy]

exactly i find it very unchrist like to attack charles stanley who hasbeen preaching for many years all because he believes in eternal security. nail someone like joel olsteen fair game . when attacking stanley your going against God anointed and a elder/father in the Lord

I love Charles Stanley. He is so unassuming and speaks the Word. Cannot say that I believe 100% of what ANYONE says or believes. Far as I am concerned, if we have core Christian doctrines in common, OSAS, Hands on healing, tongues, etc...are not concerning salvation and right standing with God. There are many Christian friends who believe some or all of the above yet, we all get along just fine if we stick to Jesus Christ as the be all end all. Several of my brothers and sisters (biological) believe most of the above and that is just fine. I cannot say either way as I've not experienced it...tried practicing it in faith but to no adieu. I begged God to not take my mom so soon but, it was not His will to do so. I brought my best friend who laid hands on her in the hospital several times, she is quite the prayer warrior and has faith to move mountains! But, God deemed it better to take that kind, gentle and sweet, God fearing woman home. Healing does not just happen because we lay on hands and have faith to move mountains, as His will over rides all of that. Our days are numbered.
Job 14:5-7 New Life Version
5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set. 6 So now look away from him that he may rest, until he has lived the time set for him like a man paid to work."

I have prayed with/for many patients in the hospital during the last 23 years of my work life. Very few were healed, they were so afraid and desperate but, I would say most were not saved. It was so frustrating and so heartbreaking. I sit on the fence where this is concerned.

 

[Grailhunter]

Back to John Caldwell opening statement…
Hi John, hope is all well with you in this New Year.

We love labels, but they can cause inaccuracies….wrong thinking and wrong perceptions and judgment and condemnation.

Cult, heretics, heresies…ambiguous terms that in course of things have lost their meaning.

Today these words mostly mean I do not like your beliefs or your beliefs are heretical because they are not mine.

The Catholics believe all Protestants are heretics and their beliefs heretical.

Tens of thousands of Protestant denominations….do they look at each other and say heretics!

2000 years….we have had a long time to think about it….and it has fractured the Church.

Christ preached only one true belief…..and it is mine, not yours.

Such thinking has caused several Christian wars….killing for Christ. Condemning for Christ!

Those that do not learn from history are damned to repeat it.

People put their nose to the letters in the Bible but do not bother to consider the Spirit of Christianity. Because of that innumerable beliefs can be formed by focusing on a few scriptures….still overlooking the Spirit of Christ.

Should we strive for perfection….yes. Can we be perfect….no. Does the Grace of Christ make up perfect before His father….yes. Was the Son of God nailed to a cross for a very fragile promise of salvation that is prone to failure?

But still, which of the denominations is right? Yours? Mine? Their’s?

Can you even begin to discern right if you do not know the Spirit of Christianity? Can you begin to apply Christianity without knowing the Spirit of Christianity?

Is it labeling people and condemning them? Is it ridicule? Is it judging? Does all this speak against Christ? Is the Anti-Christ within our attitudes that divide the faith?

Can a man that condemns have the truth within him?

After 2000 years should we continue on this path? Or learn from the mistakes of the past?

Should Christians love one another despite the differences in our beliefs? What is Christian love?
I show my love by condemning your beliefs in the name of Christ. Love without respect. Love with out compassion. Christian love? Can you apply Christian love without knowing the Spirit of Christ?

The Bible has many words…a short sighted man can find what he desires to be critical and condemning…..his heart becomes his concepts of truth. Is that the application of the Spirit of Christianity?

A wise person looks within themselves and sees the true intent of what they say and what they do. You are not what you say, you are what you do. Still the better man is he who does what he says.

Christ did teach one truth….can we see it? Can we know it? Is it love? Is it the condemnation of other Christians? I am right and you are wrong….and we destroy Christ’s Church in the process.

 

[Ezra]

I love Charles Stanley. He is so unassuming and speaks the Word. Cannot say that I believe 100% of what ANYONE says or believes. Far as I am concerned, if we have core Christian doctrines in common, OSAS, Hands on healing, tongues, etc...are not concerning salvation and right standing with God. There are many Christian friends who believe some or all of the above yet, we all get along just fine if we stick to Jesus Christ as the be all end all. Several of my brothers and sisters (biological) believe most of the above and that is just fine. I cannot say either way as I've not experienced it...tried practicing it in faith but to no adieu. I begged God to not take my mom so soon but, it was not His will to do so. I brought my best friend who laid hands on her in the hospital several times, she is quite the prayer warrior and has faith to move mountains! But, God deemed it better to take that kind, gentle and sweet, God fearing woman home. Healing does not just happen because we lay on hands and have faith to move mountains, as His will over rides all of that. Our days are numbered.
Job 14:5-7 New Life Version
5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set. 6 So now look away from him that he may rest, until he has lived the time set for him like a man paid to work."

I have prayed with/for many patients in the hospital during the last 23 years of my work life. Very few were healed, they were so afraid and desperate but, I would say most were not saved. It was so frustrating and so heartbreaking. I sit on the fence where this is concerned.

prayer the terminal sick is a mystery and many claim if you just had the faith.. the pentecostals practice that faith faith they still die.it is up to God .no i cant explain it either mom did from complications from alzheimer's my dad had parkinson's mom beat cancer died from alzheimer's