I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[Stranger]

GINOLJC, to Stranger. thanks for the response. you said, "But I would say or ask, why take the Lords Supper? It looks back to something already done", yes it looks backs, (do this in remembrance of me). it make me look back at what he did, afore, (died for us), which made a way for us to also looks forward to eternity, (Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you"). this new covenant, this 8th. day covenant, this everlasting covenant, this eternal covenant. for in this new covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:29). so then if it's neither Jewish, (It's not Israel), NOT IN CHRIST JESUS. nor it is Gentile, (the world, other nations) NOT IN CHRIST JESUS. well that just ended any Syncretism IN HIS CHURCH.

see Stranger it come right back to HIS Righteousness, in what he did for us. not our own Righteousness but his. there is no Jewish Righteousness, no Gentile Righteousness, no female Righteousness, or male Righteousness, or any other kind of Righteousness one's mind can come up with. no black Righteousness, no white/pale Righteousness, brown or yellow Righteousness.

now a side note on Righteousness in the NEW COVENANT, 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers". see the Law is for those listed here, not for us the righteous of God in Christ Jesus. so that should end the Law for any Christians because we're righteous because of HIM (Christ Jesus). his Righteousness is our Righteousness because we're a part of him, his body the church. 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".

this is why I take the Lord's supper, not only to look back/remember where I can from, but to look forward to where I'm at now and will be in eternity.

PS the future looks good, and bright, amen. thanks Lord Jesus

Yes I am aware that the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ. I am not arguing against that. That however, doesn't make Israel the Church.

I didn't say there was a Jewish righteousness. I didn't say there was a Gentile righteousness. I didn't say there was a female righteousness. I didn't say there was a male righteousness. I didn't say there was any other kind of righteousness.

Yes, the Church is one body composed of Jew and Gentile. Again, that doesn't make Israel the Church.

Stranger

 

[101G]

to Stranger, first thanks for the response. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". my question is this, "did the Lord Jesus build Israel or his CHURCH, or even re-build Israel?. I say no, but if you have a different view please point that out with scripture please, I would love to hear it.

thanks in advance.

 

[Stranger]

to Stranger, first thanks for the response. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". my question is this, "did the Lord Jesus build Israel or his CHURCH, or even re-build Israel?. I say no, but if you have a different view please point that out with scripture please, I would love to hear it.

thanks in advance.

God built Israel, of Whom Jesus is part of being the Second Person of the Godhead. God, is equally involved in building the Church, the bride and body of Christ. But, Jesus Christ, the Son, does take a lead role in the building of His Church, His bride and wife.

Note that in (Matt. 16:18) Christ says "I will build". That means future from that time.

Stranger

 

[101G]

To Stranger, thanks for the response. but what I’m about to post in response to your reply will probably be off topic from the OP which I don’t want to do. but I will answer your post.

first you said God built Israel, of Whom Jesus is part of being the Second Person of the Godhead. and you said, “God, is equally involved in building the Church”. but you correctly stated, Christ says "I” will build. “I” is a singularity. understand, you made a distinction between God and the Lord Jesus. are you saying that God and the Lord Jesus is not the Same one I?. if not, then, God, who I guess is a separate individual according to your statement, could not have help built any Church if the Lord Jesus himself stated that “I” will build. so please explain who actually is building the church. for if the Lord Jesus have someone helping him to build "HIS" church he should have said “we” will build the church… right. but we all know that the Lord Jesus don’t lie.
so I would like to hear your answer, thanks in advance.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, I agree we the Church are a temple of God. I would say remember this millennium is not heaven. In the dispensational view those who have entered the millennium from the tribulation are still made up of the body they got from the first Adam. The Jews who enter and make up the saved nation of Israel still are sinners. And as time goes on they have children that may or may not be believers. As will those who make up the saved nations. And I don't believe this temple is for the Church. This is for Israel on earth. That may not help but is something to keep in mind in the dispensational view.

As far as 'why should we understand'? All I can say is that I believe that is what Scripture teaches. As to why I believe it is important to God, I can only say that if He did plan on a millennial temple, which I believe he did in (Ez.40-48), then He knows the necessity of it. Perhaps because Israel has existed for a couple of thousand years without a daily sacrifice being in disobedience to God. And an earthly temple is necessary for a priestly people to function over the earth. I don't know exactly, I can only suppose.

Yes, I do believe things are going to get very bad. Christians will become less in the western world as God moves the births of the children of promise over to Israel. We can see it in the U.S. as the atheistic left now outnumbers the Christian right and are making their anger towards us known and impacting how we live.

That was plenty. Long posts wear me out.

Stranger

Hi Stranger! It seems to me that a lot of your answers rest on the fact that the time period in question have to be the millennium, rather than heaven. But that only works if you can prove that there will be a millennial period on earth, which I still question! I still can only see references to "this age" and "the age to come" within scripture. This age being now, things that are temporal, sinful, fading away, etc, and the age 'to come' being of things eternal. I really cannot see how a whole doctrine on a 1000 years can be written on a single passage in Revelation! But, we've been over that, I suppose!

I did want to ask...I often enjoy listening to sermons while I do things...garden, or drive. I'm wondering if you might be able to give me some names of some good preachers I can listen to on the dispensational view. I'm not after the sort who like sensational claims, or who like to spend all their time calling people who hold other views heathens. I just want some people who very simply lay out your view. That way I can just listen and try and get a better understanding that way. Thanks!

 

[Stranger]

To Stranger, thanks for the response. but what I’m about to post in response to your reply will probably be off topic from the OP which I don’t want to do. but I will answer your post.

first you said God built Israel, of Whom Jesus is part of being the Second Person of the Godhead. and you said, “God, is equally involved in building the Church”. but you correctly stated, Christ says "I” will build. “I” is a singularity. understand, you made a distinction between God and the Lord Jesus. are you saying that God and the Lord Jesus is not the Same one I?. if not, then, God, who I guess is a separate individual according to your statement, could not have help built any Church if the Lord Jesus himself stated that “I” will build. so please explain who actually is building the church. for if the Lord Jesus have someone helping him to build "HIS" church he should have said “we” will build the church… right. but we all know that the Lord Jesus don’t lie.
so I would like to hear your answer, thanks in advance.

I believe God is a Trinity. One God three Persons. Jesus Christ is God the Son.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger! It seems to me that a lot of your answers rest on the fact that the time period in question have to be the millennium, rather than heaven. But that only works if you can prove that there will be a millennial period on earth, which I still question! I still can only see references to "this age" and "the age to come" within scripture. This age being now, things that are temporal, sinful, fading away, etc, and the age 'to come' being of things eternal. I really cannot see how a whole doctrine on a 1000 years can be written on a single passage in Revelation! But, we've been over that, I suppose!

I did want to ask...I often enjoy listening to sermons while I do things...garden, or drive. I'm wondering if you might be able to give me some names of some good preachers I can listen to on the dispensational view. I'm not after the sort who like sensational claims, or who like to spend all their time calling people who hold other views heathens. I just want some people who very simply lay out your view. That way I can just listen and try and get a better understanding that way. Thanks!

I have been trying to think of some preachers or teachers who are dispensational and have a CD ministry, and am having a hard time with it. My learning has come mostly from books and authors, and these are from a past generation. I will give you some names of them and maybe you can find some CD's from them. I have also learned that not everyone that writes well, speaks well, and just the opposite.

J. Vernon McGee---he had a radio show for years.
Lewis Sperry Chafer
John Walvoord
Harry Ironside
Arno C. Gaebelein
Charles Ryrie
Donald Grey Barnhouse
W.A. Criswell

Walvoord and Chafer put out a book called 'Major Bible Themes'. It is brief but to the point, and covers dispensational teaching very well. I think you would be interested in it.

Hope you can find some audio from some of these.

Stranger

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to stranger, thanks for the response. good, but I see differently. now a disclaimer. I'm not J.W. nor a unitarian, or oneness as the upc teaches, ok. but understand I'm not against anyone beliefs ok, just seeking TRUTH. don't want to post any off topic, but I'm making my case against any PERSON(S) in the Godhead in the topic "did Jesus say he was God". so I'll post my response later today there, ok. see you then.

 

[Jamesdavid777]

Thank you for the great discussion! To make things simple, this book may help you find your answers.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi guys! So, I've been doing a bit of reading the last week or so...it's all very interesting. So...I was wondering if anyone could give me a bit of an idea of the prophecies they think are left to be fulfilled either before Christ returns, or by his second coming. I think I read somewhere that there were 333 prophecies about Christ in scripture, and only 109 were fulfilled by his first coming, leaving 224 left to be fulfilled! That seems unrealistic! Does anyone have any links, or specific prophecies that I could get into? Also, the prophecies don't have to just be about Jesus...I'd just like to know, I suppose from a Dispensationalists point of view, what they see the bible as saying is left to be fulfilled before the end.

I'm trying to really walk through both views and check them against scripture. It's sort of hard, as they really seem to view scripture through different lenses, of a sort. I'm beginning to understand, better, how the Dispensationalist looks at it all. If you understand Revelation, and a lot of the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the future to have to be fulfilled in a very literal sense, then yeah...no brainer. But the question seems to be...how does scripture expect us to interpret those books? The Amil views claims differently, and, obviously, I think that view has great validity. But, having said that, I am finding it very, very, interesting reading through some of these passages when I put on those other lenses. Ezekiel 38, for example. Makes me wonder and I enjoy learning and thinking it all through. So...I suppose all I can do is continue reading, praying, weighing...letting the Spirit guide me.
But, as I said, if anyone has any tips or pointers where I can find out more about those prophecies, that would be great....thanks.

 

[101G]

I've been doing a bit of reading the last week or so...it's all very interesting. So...I was wondering if anyone could give me a bit of an idea of the prophecies they think are left to be fulfilled either before Christ returns, or by his second coming. I think I read somewhere that there were 333 prophecies about Christ in scripture, and only 109 were fulfilled by his first coming, leaving 224 left to be fulfilled! That seems unrealistic! Does anyone have any links, or specific prophecies that I could get into? Also, the prophecies don't have to just be about Jesus...I'd just like to know, I suppose from a Dispensationalists point of view, what they see the bible as saying is left to be fulfilled before the end.

I'm beginning to understand, better, how the Dispensationalist looks at it all. If you understand Revelation, and a lot of the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the future to have to be fulfilled in a very literal sense, then yeah...no brainer. But the question seems to be...how does scripture expect us to interpret those books?
But, as I said, if anyone has any tips or pointers where I can find out more about those prophecies, that would be great....thanks.

GINOLJC, to Naomi25. I don't know if this is in the 109, but I found this one while working on something else. a OT prophecies which was, which is, and which is coming, being fulfilled in our life time is the Exodus 19:6 prophecy "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel”. this was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus/Yeshua on his first of his two fold returns on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit/Yeshua was poured out (acts chapter 2). this is supported by Revelation 1:5 & 6 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen". if one would notice in Exodus 19:6 it says "shall", future tense, be priests. and Revelation 1:5 & 6 says "hath made" indicating past tense, meaning it have been done. and also note, God said a KINGDOM of Priests, and the Kingdom came on Pentecost. and a holy nation, 1 Peter 1:16 & 17 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear". this Holy Nation is, whosoever call on the Lord, (see verse 17 above). Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call". who is the remnant called, (Acts 2:38 &39). so, is the Lord calling today? yes, so the promise is for us today.

Naomi25, by now you should know I'm a Dispensationalists. I believe in three Dispensation of God, Which was, Which is, and which to come, or I AM THAT IAM.

PS the Exodus 19:6 prophecy holds more information than we think, combine it with Zechariah 14:5 there will be meat to eat.

 

[Stranger]

Hi guys! So, I've been doing a bit of reading the last week or so...it's all very interesting. So...I was wondering if anyone could give me a bit of an idea of the prophecies they think are left to be fulfilled either before Christ returns, or by his second coming. I think I read somewhere that there were 333 prophecies about Christ in scripture, and only 109 were fulfilled by his first coming, leaving 224 left to be fulfilled! That seems unrealistic! Does anyone have any links, or specific prophecies that I could get into? Also, the prophecies don't have to just be about Jesus...I'd just like to know, I suppose from a Dispensationalists point of view, what they see the bible as saying is left to be fulfilled before the end.

I'm trying to really walk through both views and check them against scripture. It's sort of hard, as they really seem to view scripture through different lenses, of a sort. I'm beginning to understand, better, how the Dispensationalist looks at it all. If you understand Revelation, and a lot of the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the future to have to be fulfilled in a very literal sense, then yeah...no brainer. But the question seems to be...how does scripture expect us to interpret those books? The Amil views claims differently, and, obviously, I think that view has great validity. But, having said that, I am finding it very, very, interesting reading through some of these passages when I put on those other lenses. Ezekiel 38, for example. Makes me wonder and I enjoy learning and thinking it all through. So...I suppose all I can do is continue reading, praying, weighing...letting the Spirit guide me.
But, as I said, if anyone has any tips or pointers where I can find out more about those prophecies, that would be great....thanks.

The problem as you observed is that of interpretation. Unless both sides are using the same methods of interpretation, then both are just shouting at each other across a wide and impassable abyss.

It seems to me that whether it is Dispensationalists, or amillennialists, or Romanists, or anybodies interpretation, that all interpret some passages literally and some passages symbolic or spiritually. But there is much disagreement on the passages interpreted. So, the first question to answer is why should I interpret this passage literally or figuratively. Just because I don't have the answer to a passage doesn't mean I should interpret it symbolically. I may just not know what it means at this time.

I feel this has played a role in many seeing the Church as Israel. Because in the past, until 1948, there was no Israel. But Christianity was seeing all the promises God gave to Israel. So how could God be faithful and Israel is gone? Answer, the Church becomes the real Israel. God remains faithful.

You should be able to find a list of prophecies yet to be fulfilled on the internet. Just pick one and give your view of it. Or, I will gladly give mine. I am going to be out of touch for while, but will be sure to answer.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

GINOLJC, to Naomi25. I don't know if this is in the 109, but I found this one while working on something else. a OT prophecies which was, which is, and which is coming, being fulfilled in our life time is the Exodus 19:6 prophecy "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel”. this was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus/Yeshua on his first of his two fold returns on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit/Yeshua was poured out (acts chapter 2). this is supported by Revelation 1:5 & 6 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen". if one would notice in Exodus 19:6 it says "shall", future tense, be priests. and Revelation 1:5 & 6 says "hath made" indicating past tense, meaning it have been done. and also note, God said a KINGDOM of Priests, and the Kingdom came on Pentecost. and a holy nation, 1 Peter 1:16 & 17 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear". this Holy Nation is, whosoever call on the Lord, (see verse 17 above). Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call". who is the remnant called, (Acts 2:38 &39). so, is the Lord calling today? yes, so the promise is for us today.

Naomi25, by now you should know I'm a Dispensationalists. I believe in three Dispensation of God, Which was, Which is, and which to come, or I AM THAT IAM.

PS the Exodus 19:6 prophecy holds more information than we think, combine it with Zechariah 14:5 there will be meat to eat.

Hi 101! Can I ask, quickly...you say you're a Dispensationalist, but then you say you believe in just 3 dispensations. I thought they believed in many more than that. Does that mean your opinion differs to theirs?
It sounds like your 3 dispensations almost fit into covenant theology. You have your OT time...before messiah, I suppose. Then you have your "Already"...Christ has come and secured so much of the Kingdom for us now, but it has not yet been consummated...which of course leads to the ..."Not Yet"...the Age to come, when God's Kingdom is on earth, perfectly fulfilled.
I often wonder if all the different End Time views each has a kernel of truth to them, and if they could be woven together harmoniously. Perhaps that's just me! But so often you look at something and go..."yeah, that makes sense!"....but then go to the other view, and do the same! They can't ALL be right, can they? I suppose they could ALL be wrong! And I suppose when it gets to the point of Christ's return and we'll actually know, we probably won't care anymore!

 

[Naomi25]

The problem as you observed is that of interpretation. Unless both sides are using the same methods of interpretation, then both are just shouting at each other across a wide and impassable abyss.

It seems to me that whether it is Dispensationalists, or amillennialists, or Romanists, or anybodies interpretation, that all interpret some passages literally and some passages symbolic or spiritually. But there is much disagreement on the passages interpreted. So, the first question to answer is why should I interpret this passage literally or figuratively. Just because I don't have the answer to a passage doesn't mean I should interpret it symbolically. I may just not know what it means at this time.

I feel this has played a role in many seeing the Church as Israel. Because in the past, until 1948, there was no Israel. But Christianity was seeing all the promises God gave to Israel. So how could God be faithful and Israel is gone? Answer, the Church becomes the real Israel. God remains faithful.

You should be able to find a list of prophecies yet to be fulfilled on the internet. Just pick one and give your view of it. Or, I will gladly give mine. I am going to be out of touch for while, but will be sure to answer.

Stranger

Yes, Stranger, this is the problem, I agree. The problem is, just seeing the problem, doesn't really navigate me out of it! Because, while I might look at Ezekiel 38 and go "the rest of the book was fulfilled literally, so this chapter demands that as well. And it clearly says 'in the latter years..."...I can also look at Revelation and make a very good, rational and biblical case for reading much of it symbolically. And while a month ago I would have said that purely from stubborn Amil loyalty p), now I'm saying it because I can still see how the OT demands that. Perhaps not for all of it, but for much of it.
Anyway, I think my next steps are going to be this: I'm going to go back and read the rest of the prophetic books, and then I might take another tilt at Revelation. And I'm going to do some extra-biblical reading as well. I downloaded a book by Mark Hitchcock that's supposed to touch on the prophecy angle (tried googling and got too many crazy to wade through!)

 

[Stranger]

Yes, Stranger, this is the problem, I agree. The problem is, just seeing the problem, doesn't really navigate me out of it! Because, while I might look at Ezekiel 38 and go "the rest of the book was fulfilled literally, so this chapter demands that as well. And it clearly says 'in the latter years..."...I can also look at Revelation and make a very good, rational and biblical case for reading much of it symbolically. And while a month ago I would have said that purely from stubborn Amil loyalty p), now I'm saying it because I can still see how the OT demands that. Perhaps not for all of it, but for much of it.
Anyway, I think my next steps are going to be this: I'm going to go back and read the rest of the prophetic books, and then I might take another tilt at Revelation. And I'm going to do some extra-biblical reading as well. I downloaded a book by Mark Hitchcock that's supposed to touch on the prophecy angle (tried googling and got too many crazy to wade through!)

Obtain the book "The Greatness of the Kingdom" by Alva J. McClain"

Stranger

 

[101G]

GINOLJC to Naomi25. first thanks for the reply. sure U can ask me, not saying I have all the answers, for I don't know everything ok, but only what the Holy Spirit/Jesus/Yeshua teaches me. I will try to answer you correctly as you have asked.
#1. "you're a Dispensationalist, but then you say you believe in just 3 dispensations". yes, this is TRUE. I understand that there are 3 Dispensation of God. (A). Spirit, Genesis 1:1 without Flesh, without bone, and without blood, (I AM) OT Genesis - Malachi. (B). Spirit, John 1:1 Diversified, with flesh, with bone, and with NATURAL life, blood. (C). Spirit, Revelation 1:1, Diversified, in "GLORIFIED" flesh, and bone, but no blood, no natural life, but eternal life.
in short, I AM THAT I AM
1st. Dispensation, "I AM", Spirit, Creator, and Maker.
2nd. Dispensation, "THAT", Spirit, Diversified/shared in flesh, Redeemer, and Saviour
3rd. Dispensation, "I AM", Spirit, Diversified/GLORIFIED in flesh, Comforter, and King.

#2. a."It sounds like your 3 dispensations almost fit into covenant theology, b. You have your OT time...before messiah".
Yes, for there are only two covenants that ever existed in God's dispensation, not man's dispensations, which are, the OT and the NT. and on the messiah, I have him before OT times, only MANIFESTED at the end of the OT, in order to bring in the NT. 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you". that's why I believe in 2 covenant and 3 dispensations. understand, messiah was hidden (none diversified in the Spirit) in the OT in plain sight for all to see, but was without the knowledge that we have today. AND THAT KNOWLEDGE IS THAT GOD IS THE DIVERSITY, OR THE EQUAL SHARE OF HIMSELF IN FLESH AND BONE WHICH WAS TO COME. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". yes, to "COME". everything written in the OT was about the messiah to come. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me". and they were. the whole purpose of God coming in flesh, (diversified) was to fulfill those promises, and finish, or put an end to sin. yes the KINGDOM have come, but without observation. there is so much to learn, discover, and understand about the Kingdom of God.

PS by now you should know that I believe that the only PERSON in the Godhead is the one whom most call the Holy Spirit. and this one Spirit, who is Holy, diversified himself in flesh and blood to redeem us, and now resurrected in his diversified state, sits in Heaven, in bodily form as High Priest interceding for us, and at the same time in Spirit on earth comforting us. to me Diversified oneness answers all bible question for me. it's solid and correct. lastly It's GOOD you asked these question, for Iron sharpen Iron.

 

[Dcopymope]

1st question:

I'm assuming you are referring to Revelation 9 concerning the locust horde unleashed from the pit. I share the same sentiment with you concerning this interpretation of scripture. How anyone can possibly see helicopters or any other man made vehicle out of that text is beyond my understanding. When you take it literally, its beyond ridiculous because then I would have to believe that an angel fell from heaven with the key to a place called the bottomless pit to unleash nothing but helicopters. Its these kinds of outlandish interpretations that makes a joke out prophecy.

10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

I really don't see the problem you have in taking this literally. I don't know how many hills there are in the world with cattle roaming about, and I'm sure neither do you. I'm not wasting my time trying to figure it out. It doesn't detract from the literal and most basic interpretation to simply mean that every beast of the field belongs to God. As for the millennial reign of God lasting 1,000 years, I say why the hell not? The world will see their maker sitting right in front of their faces and it leaves plenty of time for more people to come to Christ and get saved from judgement.

2nd question:

Correct, it most certainly hasn't happened yet as my understanding of that text primarily comes from Jesus himself. Forget mans interpretations, the Son of God makes it very clear that the seventieth week of Daniel is the time of the great tribulation set to occur in the last days. If you don't see the gap in the text itself, then ultimately, the way Jesus describes the text is where the gap comes from.

(Matthew 24:13-21) "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {14} And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. {15} When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

3rd question:

If you really believe the Bible is the word of God, then one verse is all you should need to validate an interpretation. The events set to take place in Revelation 20 is not "another fall". The fall of man occurred in the garden of Eden. Therefore, what occurs in Revelation 20 shines a light on the fallen nature of mankind. It won't matter if God is sitting right in front of them anymore than it did with Adam and Eve, because Satan's guile knows no bounds. And to be clear, it is stated in the old testament that the nations will still be worshiping their own false gods. So while the world may be in peace and harmony, it won't be in harmony in a religious or spiritual sense. That doesn't occur until after judgement day and the creation of the new heaven and earth. Now you can imagine the lie's that will be told by Satan due to false beliefs continuing to exist. You can consider the fire that comes immediately afterward as an example of God separating the wheat's from the tares for good.

The Golden Age:

(Micah 4:1-7) "But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. {2} And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. {3} ¶ And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. {4} But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. {5} For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. {6} In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; {7} And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."

4th question:

How do I separate such events? Simple.

1. The beginning of sorrows.

2. Great Tribulation.

3. Great Tribulation cut short on the day of the Lord, which I believe occurs in Revelation 15.

(Revelation 15:1-2) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. {2} And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

4. Wrath of God ensues.

5. Nations gather together for the battle of Armageddon with Christs actual second coming.

6. They of course lose and new Jerusalem is established beginning the millennial reign of Christ.

This is not hard for me to see when you understand that the Day of the Lord is not the actual second coming but is more to do with the gathering of the saints and the annunciation to the world that they are due for a glorious beating for their transgressions against the Lord

 

[Naomi25]

GINOLJC to Naomi25. first thanks for the reply. sure U can ask me, not saying I have all the answers, for I don't know everything ok, but only what the Holy Spirit/Jesus/Yeshua teaches me. I will try to answer you correctly as you have asked.
#1. "you're a Dispensationalist, but then you say you believe in just 3 dispensations". yes, this is TRUE. I understand that there are 3 Dispensation of God. (A). Spirit, Genesis 1:1 without Flesh, without bone, and without blood, (I AM) OT Genesis - Malachi. (B). Spirit, John 1:1 Diversified, with flesh, with bone, and with NATURAL life, blood. (C). Spirit, Revelation 1:1, Diversified, in "GLORIFIED" flesh, and bone, but no blood, no natural life, but eternal life.
in short, I AM THAT I AM
1st. Dispensation, "I AM", Spirit, Creator, and Maker.
2nd. Dispensation, "THAT", Spirit, Diversified/shared in flesh, Redeemer, and Saviour
3rd. Dispensation, "I AM", Spirit, Diversified/GLORIFIED in flesh, Comforter, and King.

#2. a."It sounds like your 3 dispensations almost fit into covenant theology, b. You have your OT time...before messiah".
Yes, for there are only two covenants that ever existed in God's dispensation, not man's dispensations, which are, the OT and the NT. and on the messiah, I have him before OT times, only MANIFESTED at the end of the OT, in order to bring in the NT. 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you". that's why I believe in 2 covenant and 3 dispensations. understand, messiah was hidden (none diversified in the Spirit) in the OT in plain sight for all to see, but was without the knowledge that we have today. AND THAT KNOWLEDGE IS THAT GOD IS THE DIVERSITY, OR THE EQUAL SHARE OF HIMSELF IN FLESH AND BONE WHICH WAS TO COME. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". yes, to "COME". everything written in the OT was about the messiah to come. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me". and they were. the whole purpose of God coming in flesh, (diversified) was to fulfill those promises, and finish, or put an end to sin. yes the KINGDOM have come, but without observation. there is so much to learn, discover, and understand about the Kingdom of God.

PS by now you should know that I believe that the only PERSON in the Godhead is the one whom most call the Holy Spirit. and this one Spirit, who is Holy, diversified himself in flesh and blood to redeem us, and now resurrected in his diversified state, sits in Heaven, in bodily form as High Priest interceding for us, and at the same time in Spirit on earth comforting us. to me Diversified oneness answers all bible question for me. it's solid and correct. lastly It's GOOD you asked these question, for Iron sharpen Iron.

Hi 101. So...if I'm reading you correctly, you don't actually hold to the teaching of the Trinity? You don't see that Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are separate persons within the Godhead, but one and the same? Do you see The Spirit as the Father as well? I suppose you would, one God, 3 forms. Is that right? I don't agree, but I don't want to misunderstand what you're saying.

 

[101G]

Hi 101. So...if I'm reading you correctly, you don't actually hold to the teaching of the Trinity? You don't see that Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are separate persons within the Godhead, but one and the same? Do you see The Spirit as the Father as well? I suppose you would, one God, 3 forms. Is that right? I don't agree, but I don't want to misunderstand what you're saying.

GINOLJC, to Naomi25, thanks for the post. correct, no, I don't hold to the teaching of the trinity. and yes, our Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit shared or diversified in flesh as the son title holder.
listen closely, the only thing that separate me, diversified oneness, and trinitarian is just this one little fact "shared" PERSON vs "separate" PERSON(S). understand, the SHARE of oneself or "ANOTHER" vs 3 separate explain the entire bible correctly from Genesis to Revelation.
understand, Father is only a title, (NOT A NATURE) as well as Son. the Holy Spirit hold both titles. there are two words that describe this sharing or diversity of God.
A. NT, G243 Allos, listen to it's definition. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. a numerical difference means TWO or more, as in Father (1), Son (2). are this 2 persons? NO, why? because the definition states "another of the same sort". and SORT means, A. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature. B. character, quality, or nature. see Naomi25 the Lord Jesus have the same NATURE, same quality, (which answer the greater than question). and in the same class, or group, which is the GOD GROUP, better known as the GODHEAD. understand Naomi25 our Lord is the EQUAL share as Phil 2:6 states and the definition G243 allos here defines. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". the Greek word "FORM" in this verse is,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
this definition tells us that the Lord Jesus have the fundamental nature of God as defined in the G243 Allos for us. he's in the same class, Group as the Spirit, for God is a Spirit, same NATURE. now this is where PERSON vs PERSON(s) comes in at. for the root of G3444 μορφή morphe above here tells us what KIND or TYPE of NATURE our LORD Jesus have. answer the root of G3444 μορφή morphe is,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion
2. a division, a share
study this definition, another word for PORTION in #1 is "SHARE" as in #2 SHARE. so the Lord Jesus have the "SHARED" NATURE of God. what do this tells us?. we have two figures, two individuals of the SAME nature. but is this not what the trinitarians are saying, NO, and again I say no. a share is the SAME PERSON, numerically existing in another form/nature. a share is the SAME one only numerically denoted, meaning two. understand, the term "HOLY" Spirit defines the Son and the Father. Holy is God's Character which is defined as "Son", see G5207, huios and understand it's use as metaphorically. and Spirit is describing both NATURES. so one berson shared, not divided. now we can fully understand why the Lord jesus said, "I and my Father are one". not "is" one but "are" two of the same.

B. the OT. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". the Hebrew word God here is H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') which is a plurality of ONE, meaning more that one as a unite, or to to unify. the Hebrew word that describe this plurality of ONE is H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd'). this word also indicate "FIRST", please look up this definition. also there is anothe Hebrew word that describes this unity,
H312 אַחֵר 'acher (ach-air') adj.
1. (properly) hinder.
2. (generally) next, other, etc.
KJV: (an-)other man, following, next, strange.
Root(s): H309
see how the KJV can translate it, "ANOTHER" MAN. NOTE: the word Adam/man means "ANOTHER" b H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119
see that "ANOTHER", all definition point to "ANOTHER".

conclusion: Man is the IMAGE of God right...... right. what is man? answer ANOTHER of himself. that's why EVE is here, because she is a ANOTHER of ADAM in NATURE, just as the Lord JESUS is ANOTHER God in NATURE. but Eve is a separate person from ADAM. correct. but the Lord Jesus is not a separate person from God because there is only one person who is God. there is no OTHER. God is not numerically separate, if so then one have two Gods in the Godhead, described as PERSONS. see, there cannot be two or more PERSON(S) in the Godhead. but you can have ONE PERSON "SHARED", hence the H259 אֶחָד 'echad of God, or the G243 Allos of God and still be one.

PS, I'll be out most of the day but I'll pick this up in the evening. there is so much to learn about God diversity. and it's in the bible from Genesis to Revelation. be blessed until then. U might want to read this again.

 

[Mjh29]

GINOLJC, to Naomi25, thanks for the post. correct, no, I don't hold to the teaching of the trinity. and yes, our Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit shared or diversified in flesh as the son title holder.
listen closely, the only thing that separate me, diversified oneness, and trinitarian is just this one little fact "shared" PERSON vs "separate" PERSON(S). understand, the SHARE of oneself or "ANOTHER" vs 3 separate explain the entire bible correctly from Genesis to Revelation.
understand, Father is only a title, (NOT A NATURE) as well as Son. the Holy Spirit hold both titles. there are two words that describe this sharing or diversity of God.
A. NT, G243 Allos, listen to it's definition. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. a numerical difference means TWO or more, as in Father (1), Son (2). are this 2 persons? NO, why? because the definition states "another of the same sort". and SORT means, A. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature. B. character, quality, or nature. see Naomi25 the Lord Jesus have the same NATURE, same quality, (which answer the greater than question). and in the same class, or group, which is the GOD GROUP, better known as the GODHEAD. understand Naomi25 our Lord is the EQUAL share as Phil 2:6 states and the definition G243 allos here defines. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". the Greek word "FORM" in this verse is,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
this definition tells us that the Lord Jesus have the fundamental nature of God as defined in the G243 Allos for us. he's in the same class, Group as the Spirit, for God is a Spirit, same NATURE. now this is where PERSON vs PERSON(s) comes in at. for the root of G3444 μορφή morphe above here tells us what KIND or TYPE of NATURE our LORD Jesus have. answer the root of G3444 μορφή morphe is,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion
2. a division, a share
study this definition, another word for PORTION in #1 is "SHARE" as in #2 SHARE. so the Lord Jesus have the "SHARED" NATURE of God. what do this tells us?. we have two figures, two individuals of the SAME nature. but is this not what the trinitarians are saying, NO, and again I say no. a share is the SAME PERSON, numerically existing in another form/nature. a share is the SAME one only numerically denoted, meaning two. understand, the term "HOLY" Spirit defines the Son and the Father. Holy is God's Character which is defined as "Son", see G5207, huios and understand it's use as metaphorically. and Spirit is describing both NATURES. so one berson shared, not divided. now we can fully understand why the Lord jesus said, "I and my Father are one". not "is" one but "are" two of the same.

B. the OT. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". the Hebrew word God here is H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') which is a plurality of ONE, meaning more that one as a unite, or to to unify. the Hebrew word that describe this plurality of ONE is H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd'). this word also indicate "FIRST", please look up this definition. also there is anothe Hebrew word that describes this unity,
H312 אַחֵר 'acher (ach-air') adj.
1. (properly) hinder.
2. (generally) next, other, etc.
KJV: (an-)other man, following, next, strange.
Root(s): H309
see how the KJV can translate it, "ANOTHER" MAN. NOTE: the word Adam/man means "ANOTHER" b H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119
see that "ANOTHER", all definition point to "ANOTHER".

conclusion: Man is the IMAGE of God right...... right. what is man? answer ANOTHER of himself. that's why EVE is here, because she is a ANOTHER of ADAM in NATURE, just as the Lord JESUS is ANOTHER God in NATURE. but Eve is a separate person from ADAM. correct. but the Lord Jesus is not a separate person from God because there is only one person who is God. there is no OTHER. God is not numerically separate, if so then one have two Gods in the Godhead, described as PERSONS. see, there cannot be two or more PERSON(S) in the Godhead. but you can have ONE PERSON "SHARED", hence the H259 אֶחָד 'echad of God, or the G243 Allos of God and still be one.

PS, I'll be out most of the day but I'll pick this up in the evening. there is so much to learn about God diversity. and it's in the bible from Genesis to Revelation. be blessed until then. U might want to read this again.

Not at all being rude, but would this not make Jesus quite scizophrenic? I mean, He does talk to, pray to, reference, cry out to, and praise the Father quite often, would this not make Him either crazy or very arrogant?